60 minutes eviscerates Lumber Liquidators

[Greenman]

Depending on how it's milled, solid wood flooring can be edge glued to create a single layer floating floor. It can also be nailed down to non-fastened plywood to create a multi-layered floating floor. We use a lot of concrete slabs with radiant heat in my area where it would be risky to drive fasteners into the slab. In this instance the installers will often use the floating plywood with any hardwood over it and sometimes foam under to dampen noise. It can be over concrete or any other surface.

I've never heard of a floating plywood floor. It sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. Do you have any idea who recommends this instillation method and perhaps some technical specs?

 

[Moonbeam]

This whole thread has made me a sad panda. Apparently I am going to have to pay like 9 dollars a sq foot for engineered 2 MM of hardwood instead of 4 dollars a sq foot for 3/4 solid maple because I have a concrete floor and laying a plywood base would cause all kinds of height problems going from floor to tile elsewhere in the house, not to mention the expense of the plywood. The look will be the same but 2mm isn't 3/4 inches and it actually is over twice as expensive. Actually, I'm not so much sad as I am pissed.

 

[Jimzz]

This whole thread has made me a sad panda. Apparently I am going to have to pay like 9 dollars a sq foot for engineered 2 MM of hardwood instead of 4 dollars a sq foot for 3/4 solid maple because I have a concrete floor and laying a plywood base would cause all kinds of height problems going from floor to tile elsewhere in the house, not to mention the expense of the plywood. The look will be the same but 2mm isn't 3/4 inches and it actually is over twice as expensive. Actually, I'm not so much sad as I am pissed.

Use engineered wood. It requires shorter nails/cleats to fasten down so you can go with a little thinner wood and thinner plywood as well. But you will end up with real wood on the surface.

 

[Moonbeam]

Use engineered wood. It requires shorter nails/cleats to fasten down so you can go with a little thinner wood and thinner plywood as well. But you will end up with real wood on the surface.

I am going to have to buy engineered wood, apparently if I want a 3/8 inch floor over concrete. But it goes on a mat and is snapped together without nails or glue and the wood is 2mm thick. A thicker surface is 20 dollars installed, too much for the housing area mine is in, in my opinion. LL sells the identical color in solid 3/4 hardware with a mat for 9 dollars installed, the price of the engineered non LL alone, but everything I read says you can't float solid wood on concrete because of potential moisture issues. Anyway, the engineered stuff looks just as good, but I will know it's only 2mm deep instead of solid 3/4 inch that actually costs less money.

No way now that I would buy engineered from LL but they have great prices on solid hardwood flooring.

 

[Subyman]

I've never heard of a floating plywood floor. It sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. Do you have any idea who recommends this instillation method and perhaps some technical specs?

They couldn't simply lay the plywood (most likely OSB due to cost) against the raw concrete. There could be major moisture issues. Putting non-treated against concrete, even above grade, is always a big no-no. Perhaps they use some sort of water barrier and then the plywood, or they use plastic spacers to lift the plywood above the surface and use a vapor barrier. Otherwise the plywood would bow overtime from moisture extraction.

The cheapest method I've seen for hardwood over concrete is to use treated sleepers over the concrete then a vapor barrier and then the hardwood flooring. Sleepers are usually 2x4s treated lumber. The other way to use plywood subfloor is to apply asphalt glue over the entire slab, roll out tar paper (15lb usually). Roll a plastic vapor retarder over all that and then attach the plywood with hardware. Pros use the guns.

I don't care for slabs, they are a PITA. If you ever buy a house with the notion to renovate, always always think about the slab. Any small change to plumbing requires jack hammers.

 

[Subyman]

I am going to have to buy engineered wood, apparently if I want a 3/8 inch floor over concrete. But it goes on a mat and is snapped together without nails or glue and the wood is 2mm thick. A thicker surface is 20 dollars installed, too much for the housing area mine is in, in my opinion. LL sells the identical color in solid 3/4 hardware with a mat for 9 dollars installed, the price of the engineered non LL alone, but everything I read says you can't float solid wood on concrete because of potential moisture issues. Anyway, the engineered stuff looks just as good, but I will know it's only 2mm deep instead of solid 3/4 inch that actually costs less money.

No way now that I would buy engineered from LL but they have great prices on solid hardwood flooring.

Yeah, newer engineered come in snap-lock and can float. Definitely ideal for concrete. I don't recommend solid hardwood over concrete unless you are ready for expensive contractor costs. Floating floors are DIY, hardwood requires calling in the pros.

 

[dawp]

This maybe an issue for rental properties. When a landlord renovates his house prior to leasing it they have a tendency to use the cheapest material available and the tenant might not be able to find where the laminate flooring came from.

I am currently looking for a house to rent in Charlotte, NC and I am steering away from any houses that have any laminate flooring in it just to play it safe.

 

[Greenman]

They couldn't simply lay the plywood (most likely OSB due to cost) against the raw concrete. There could be major moisture issues. Putting non-treated against concrete, even above grade, is always a big no-no. Perhaps they use some sort of water barrier and then the plywood, or they use plastic spacers to lift the plywood above the surface and use a vapor barrier. Otherwise the plywood would bow overtime from moisture extraction.

The cheapest method I've seen for hardwood over concrete is to use treated sleepers over the concrete then a vapor barrier and then the hardwood flooring. Sleepers are usually 2x4s treated lumber. The other way to use plywood subfloor is to apply asphalt glue over the entire slab, roll out tar paper (15lb usually). Roll a plastic vapor retarder over all that and then attach the plywood with hardware. Pros use the guns.

I don't care for slabs, they are a PITA. If you ever buy a house with the notion to renovate, always always think about the slab. Any small change to plumbing requires jack hammers.

This is why I was asking about specs. I've never heard of a floating plywood floor, and I can't come up with an instillation method that won't fail. But I don't know everything, some bright fellow may have cracked the code and have a really slick system for a floating plywood floor. I'd like to know more.

 

[DrPizza]

This is why I was asking about specs. I've never heard of a floating plywood floor, and I can't come up with an instillation method that won't fail. But I don't know everything, some bright fellow may have cracked the code and have a really slick system for a floating plywood floor. I'd like to know more.

Taking a shot in the dark at it, and ignoring moisture problems, how about a 1/2 inch plywood, then contact cement (or glue), and another layer of 1/2 inch plywood over it in a perpendicular orientation, making sure none of the seams line up from one layer to the next? And fire in a bunch of 7/8" screws to make sure it's all pulled together?

 

[Humpy]

A couple of things here. A wood floor that works in the desert Southwest, or on the 30th floor of a Chicago highrise, may not always work on a slab on grade in another environment. The entire picture has to be considered.

Dr. Pizza has it very close to the floating subfloor and wood floor assembly I've had installed in my projects. Essentially they are built in place engineered floors that include much more than just the finished surface. Typically in a residence it starts with 6-10" of gravel capillary break under the slab, then a sealed layer of 6 mil polyethylene, 2" of rigid insulation, and a fully cured 4-6" reinforced concrete slab with radiant tubing. At that point there is no issue with moisture and pretty much any wood floor can be put on top.

When the customer wants solid hardwood a floating subfloor of alternating layers of stapled together plywood (usually 1/2" but sometimes thicker to meet finished floor height) is laid down and the wood floor is laid on top as normal.

Edit: Revisiting this I should add that I am in the Southwest US. There is less of a seasonal effect on floors and relatively dry soil conditions. Moisture problems are relatively easy to control. Also, in a city like Santa Fe people often don't want a "perfect" wood floor, they pay for floors with character to match the architecture. Some gaps, squeaks, finish imperfections, beat with chains, etc. are an expected and desirable upgrade. This is where managing expectations comes into play. Figuring out what the customer says they want, what they actually want, what they can afford, and what they will pay for, is way harder than actually building anything.

For those interested, see the National Wood Flooring Association's Wood Flooring Installation Guidelines and Methods, for more information. Specifically, Section II Chapter 5, for info related to wood over concrete.

 

[Humpy]

I've never heard of a floating plywood floor. It sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. Do you have any idea who recommends this instillation method and perhaps some technical specs?

National Wood Flooring Association:

Wood Flooring Installation Guidelines and Methods

 

[Subyman]

I've only worked in the midwest, which is why I am cautious about wood over slab, especially because most slab I worked with is on or below ground level, not above grade.

 

[Greenman]

Taking a shot in the dark at it, and ignoring moisture problems, how about a 1/2 inch plywood, then contact cement (or glue), and another layer of 1/2 inch plywood over it in a perpendicular orientation, making sure none of the seams line up from one layer to the next? And fire in a bunch of 7/8" screws to make sure it's all pulled together?

You nailed it, that's what the National Wood Flooring Association recommends (Thanks Humpy). It's an interesting idea, and one I would never attempt unless there was enough profit in the job to do the entire thing twice, and still make money.

Latent defects are the reason why, the law say's I'm on the hook for latent defects for ten years (which is perfectly reasonable) but the courts often interpret that as forever (which is a really long time). While the system as described certainly has some merit, catastrophic failure is only a quart of water away.

 

[Humpy]

I'm not sure where the latent defect is in this instance?

Wood isn't any worse than some other interior finishes when it comes to water damage (I'm sure the quart of water leading to "catastrophic" failure was an exaggeration). All wood, carpet, paint, drywall, etc. can need replacing after being damaged. A floating subfloor/wood floor installation can be a benefit in the event of a relatively small leak, the entire assembly will often expand and contract together without fasteners pulling out or splitting individual boards. Understanding how materials perform together is important and will help in understanding why and how accepted practices come to be.

Honestly, I'm shocked at how often I notice builders/contractors who aren't aware of published industry guidelines and various standard practices. Reference materials are the most important, and easily the most overlooked, tool available.

 

[Subyman]

I'm starting to wonder how far we are away from some sort of composite replacing plywood. I already see it on trim boards, decking, shims, water facing lumber, etc. Only a matter of time before they rib it and roll it thin into sheets.

I remember reading about this awhile ago:
http://machinedesign.com/plastics-and-composites/lighter-alternative-plywood

but I haven't seen it for sale yet. I'm interested in alternatives going forward. However, I'll be kind of sad if oil-based products end up replacing a renewable.

 

[Greenman]

I'm not sure where the latent defect is in this instance?

Wood isn't any worse than some other interior finishes when it comes to water damage (I'm sure the quart of water leading to "catastrophic" failure was an exaggeration). All wood, carpet, paint, drywall, etc. can need replacing after being damaged. A floating subfloor/wood floor installation can be a benefit in the event of a relatively small leak, the entire assembly will often expand and contract together without fasteners pulling out or splitting individual boards. Understanding how materials perform together is important and will help in understanding why and how accepted practices come to be.

Honestly, I'm shocked at how often I notice builders/contractors who aren't aware of published industry guidelines and various standard practices. Reference materials are the most important, and easily the most overlooked, tool available.

My issue with the plywood floor system is warping. Plywood sheets aren't all that stable. Laminating two together helps, but not a lot of moisture (hence the quart of water) would still make it bow. That's the latent defect issue, I'm on the hook for ten years.
The system obviously works, though I wouldn't even consider it for a below grade installation. I'd also be very curious to know what the failure rate is.

There are many things that were industry standards that simply didn't work in the long term, tile over green board in a shower, Masonite siding, and aluminium wiring come to mind. This is why I'm a very conservative builder, I don't like any sort of failure, I don't like warranty work, and I never try to get out of correcting a problem by pointing at someone else.

Edit. Just looked at APA standards. Every use listed requires "secure fastening per table xxx". I'll ask the factory rep about floating plywood. My guess is the official line will be that it's not recommended because it's not anchored down.
I'm not trying to prove anything here, I'm simply curious about the instillation.

 

[Greenman]

I'm starting to wonder how far we are away from some sort of composite replacing plywood. I already see it on trim boards, decking, shims, water facing lumber, etc. Only a matter of time before they rib it and roll it thin into sheets.

I remember reading about this awhile ago:
http://machinedesign.com/plastics-and-composites/lighter-alternative-plywood

but I haven't seen it for sale yet. I'm interested in alternatives going forward. However, I'll be kind of sad if oil-based products end up replacing a renewable.

Adoption is always an issue. The construction industry has a long and sad history of great new products that ended up failing miserably. You tend to get pretty cautious after being badly burned half a dozen times.

 

[WackyDan]

We live in North Carolina on a slab. Slab because the clay here moves too much to put in many basements unless you have the money to build a bomb proof one so the movement of the clay doesn't fuck it up...

The builder put in solid wood flooring in the hall and 1/2 bath and by time we bought it in 2004 that floor was rippled as they never should have installed it on the slab. I've since gone entirely tile or engineered hardwood (thin veneer over ply) and have had zero issues with the remodel from 2005 we did on those floors. Meanwhile next door my neighbor insisted on using solid hardwoods during their remodel....Any year now that floor is going to start buckling.

If I had a choice I would love the solid hardwoods just for the refinishing potential down the road, but I'll have to wait until the next house when we have a basement.

As far as Lumber Liquidators goes, I looked into them for the last floor we put in... Prices were good, but the amount of complaints on them is through the roof. More disturbing is that most all complaints are ignored or never handled by LL to satisfaction.

So fuck that... That should be all you need to know to not deal with them.

 

[Subyman]

We live in North Carolina on a slab. Slab because the clay here moves too much to put in many basements unless you have the money to build a bomb proof one so the movement of the clay doesn't fuck it up...

The builder put in solid wood flooring in the hall and 1/2 bath and by time we bought it in 2004 that floor was rippled as they never should have installed it on the slab. I've since gone entirely tile or engineered hardwood (thin veneer over ply) and have had zero issues with the remodel from 2005 we did on those floors. Meanwhile next door my neighbor insisted on using solid hardwoods during their remodel....Any year now that floor is going to start buckling.

If I had a choice I would love the solid hardwoods just for the refinishing potential down the road, but I'll have to wait until the next house when we have a basement.

As far as Lumber Liquidators goes, I looked into them for the last floor we put in... Prices were good, but the amount of complaints on them is through the roof. More disturbing is that most all complaints are ignored or never handled by LL to satisfaction.

So fuck that... That should be all you need to know to not deal with them.

I've installed many laminate floors. From 69c per sqft to really pricy "hand scraped" stuff. The cheap crap is always a PITA to install. The grooves are usually filled with debris and the routing is very poor. Some tend to crumble when trying to squeeze them into tight spots. I wouldn't trust them to last more than 5 years and even if it came with a warranty, there are so many loopholes in it that I doubt anyone has successfully had one replaced for free. I read the back of one box that said the temperature must be maintained between 68-74F and the humidity must always be between 55-65%. Those are some tight margins!

Do they not build on crawl spaces in your area? Seems like a decent alternative to having to have a basement.

 

[WackyDan]

I've installed many laminate floors. From 69c per sqft to really pricy "hand scraped" stuff. The cheap crap is always a PITA to install. The grooves are usually filled with debris and the routing is very poor. Some tend to crumble when trying to squeeze them into tight spots. I wouldn't trust them to last more than 5 years and even if it came with a warranty, there are so many loopholes in it that I doubt anyone has successfully had one replaced for free. I read the back of one box that said the temperature must be maintained between 68-74F and the humidity must always be between 55-65%. Those are some tight margins!

Do they not build on crawl spaces in your area? Seems like a decent alternative to having to have a basement.

Lots of crawl spaces here... Not worth the moisture issues in my opinion.