3dfx just unleashed their mega secret weapon HSR, will NVIDIA respond?

Varborta

Senior member
Jul 11, 2000
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Everyone must agree voodoo's secret weapon hsr has taken us by huge surprise it actually able to compete very well against nvidia #1 flagship Geforce2 Ultra AMAZING, although it has quality problem but 3dfx aint like S3 they will fix those problem. I have to wonder maybe the # showed on the web site its abit exaggerated but even it went lower its still astonishing!
Now, will Nvidia has similar secret weapon under their sleeve or they already blew everything on Detonator 3?
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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let's keep in mind a few things:

1) These are beta drivers. 3dfx is known for releasing beta drivers shortly before "full-release" drivers, but the visual anomalies created by these drivers *in certain situations* seems to be rather intense.

2) Above 1024, HSR affects the 5500 rather adversely. Kinda like running windows above 1024 on a trinitron + nvidia combo <g>

3) nvidia are still the performance leaders until 3dfx releases WHQL-certified drivers that rids us of the goofy visual &quot;things&quot; that this driver causes.

4) Still is mighty nice to have that option, yes? <g> 3dfx isn't competing with the Ultra, either. They should call it a major victory if they can stay within 5 fps (without visual weirdness) of a GTS/GTS Pro.

I'm headed home to try these drivers now. Toodles! :D
 

caboob

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
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Just got my V5 at work today...cant wait ta get home and try these new drivers out!!!!!
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Of course nVidia will respond, you can be sure of that. Anyway the NV20 is supposed to have some sort of HSR/caching combo scheme.

I just hope 3dfx provide it as a seperate option for OpenGL and Direct 3D games in their driver control panel.
 

DominoBoy

Member
Nov 3, 2000
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HSR = Hidden Surface Removal. They are trying to do what ATI does with HyperZ.

But the 3dfx drivers are just blowing smoke though. Why? Because they are not just removing HIDDEN surfaces, but surfaces like the FLOOR and the CEILING and the things that you are SUPPOSED to see. Not to mention the many image quality flaws. Sure, it's easy to speed up a card if you remove half the things that are SUPPOSED to be on the screen. LOL !!!!

Bottom Line. V5 5500 is still nowhere near as fast as a 64MB Radeon or 64MB GeForce2, much less the Ultra. Hmmmm, maybe I can get 1000 frames per second in Unreal Tournament on my old V3 3000 if they just remove the floors, ceiling, walls, other players, and weapon fire. :) Hehe
 

Varborta

Senior member
Jul 11, 2000
441
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One question what exactly is HSR? What exactly does it remove or do? I mean it suppose to do. Is it just software-able? It would be cool to see Nvidia adds something like HyperZ to its exisiting card. Imagine the speed boost!
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
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Varbota, current cards render everything, whether it is covered by something in front of it or not. HSR attempts to remove those objects. Not as affective as tiling, but it does the trick.

Dominoboy, nowhere near as close? Umm...maybe if you're running around playing 3DMark all day.
 

nippyjun

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,447
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Dominoboy you are very wrong. I've got a V5 5500 and a geforce 2. The new HSR V5 hack gives me much better performance then my Geforce 2 and with 2xfsaa enabled there are no artifacts. I'm getting rid of the geforce, there's no reason now for me to keep it.
 

SmackdownHotel

Golden Member
May 19, 2000
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Domino, I play Q3 with the new drivers at 1024x768x32 with 2X FSAA and VSYNC on, and there are NO visual artifacts. Sure, if you play at 1600x1200, then yeah, you will see some major problems.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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DominoBoy, they're beta drivers

the HSR isnt' even an option in 3dfx tools. it's enabled by a registry hack. the reason? because there are *some* visual anomalies. They're still working on it.

I still haven't tested it personally. When I do, I'll be looking for visual &quot;weirdness&quot;

and you are wrong about &quot;not even close&quot;

using the 1.03 drivers, I get mid-80s in Q3, 1024x768x32 HQ w/max textures and geometry. d'oh! so much for that!
 

DominoBoy

Member
Nov 3, 2000
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ROBO, all I care about is 1280 x 1024. I would never even consider playing at anything lower than that since my new 19 inch monitor. Tell me about 1280 x 1024, and also about more than just 1 game. Are all games improved? Direct3D and OpenGL?

Tell me some good stuff about these things and I will believe.
 

rampage2001

Member
Sep 12, 2000
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This is good news for all of us.. now if we can get 3dfx competitive for our gaming dollars again the world will be a better place. I have said nasty things to both nvidia and 3dfx (mostly against nvidia on agn3d for those of you that migrated) and might buy a v5 if I can get one for $140. I want to see how nvidia responds first before I jump ship on em...the geforce line has massive fillrate numbers and that brute force with hyper z/HSR would make for one vicious card.

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RoboTECH

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Jun 16, 2000
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i'm pretty sure that one of the main reasons that the HSR is copmletely undocumented and requires a registry hack to activate is because Q3 is being used as a &quot;testbed&quot; for the HSR driver techniques, since it has such a high rate of overdraw.

Also, from what I've read, 1280 is pretty ugly right now with the beta HSR drivers.
 

BW

Banned
Nov 28, 1999
254
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Dont argue with that freak domino. Its clear by now that he is anti 3dfx. c-mon punk lets hear what you got to say now.
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
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Deeko, so what you are saying is that, in the case that i'm looking at the front of a building, the card still renders the sides and rear of the building too, even though i cant see them? if thats the case then i would imagine that having to process that much less info would bost framerates quite a bit.

and nippyjun, i wouldnt just get rid of your nVidia just yet...remember that these are only beta drivers. so unless you have tested them out in every possible game and resolution, there still may be problems with them. dont get me wrong, i'm 3dfx all the way, but i must say their showing over the past year or so has been far from impressive and mistake-free...as for me, i have the V5500. i love its 3dfx Glide performance in Unreal Tournament, and i havent even tried the new drivers yet...
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Sunny129, I wouldn't risk your system stability on these drivers. They'll only help in situations where the video card is the limit, when your CPU is idling (ie, >= 1024x768x32). Your P2-350 won't have enough spare cycles (if any) to use the HSR effectively.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Pete, you are 100% correct. The HSR will actually SLOW a system with a P2-350

han888, there is more to life than benchmarks, don't forget that.

i'm quite suspicious of these increases. I'll wait until 3dfx releases the WHQL drivers before I make a decision on these drivers. utnil then, it is still quite shaky
 

AirGibson

Member
Nov 30, 2000
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Hope you all are ready for a long read. Here it comes!

I spent several hours yesterday playing with HSR options, and quite frankly, it is the biggest performance increase I've ever seen or heard of. First, let's see the bad news:

- At your highest resolutions such as 1600 x 1200, the higher HSR settings cause graphical problems that I can't get rid of. In some cases (I.E. 1600 x 1200 with HSR 4) the problems are so bad it is unplayable. Sure, your FPS go through the roof and then some, but that obviously doesn't mean squat if you can't play the game.

- Direct 3D games get nothing from HSR.

- These beta drivers are &quot;nVidia-esque&quot; in the sense that sometimes they're difficult to set up for people who aren't familiar with a bit of technical jargon. Either a registry hack or a hand-made batch file is needed to work with HSR.

Keep in mind these *are BETA* drivers, so certainly some of these problems are to be expected.

Damn...with all this bad stuff, the results better be pretty friggin? good, right? On to the benchmarks.

My system:
P3 700 (O/Ced to 815)
128 MB PC 100 SDRAM
ASUS P3V4X mobo (VIA 133a Chipset, latest BIOS and 4 in 1 drivers)
Voodoo 5500 (not O/Ced)

Just a quick note...when you see the markings (1) and (2) in my results, this is what I mean:

1 - Graphical glitches were very apparent at first, but disappeared when I enabled V-Sync and set 32 bit Depth Precision to &quot;fast&quot;.

2 - Graphical glitches were very apparent at first, but disappeared when I enabled V-Sync, set 32 bit Depth Precision to &quot;fast&quot;, and hard-capped the frame rate at about 15% below the fps average I was getting from the demo.

Here's what I got from Quake 3 Arena using timedemo 1, demo 001 across several different resolutions, FSAA settings, and HSR settings.

HQ - 800 x 600 ? 2x FSAA ? No HSR ? 59.2 ? Ran Perfect
HQ - 800 x 600 ? 2x FSAA ? HSR 2 ? 80.3 ? Ran Perfect
HQ - 800 x 600 ? 2x FSAA ? HSR 3 ? 87.1 ? Ran Perfect

An extra 28 FPS here at no cost to any image quality at all.

HQ - 800 x 600 ? 4x FSAA ? No HSR ? 27.8 ? Somewhat Playable (poor FPS)
HQ ? 800 x 600 ? 4x FSAA ? HSR 1 ? 36.2 ? Very Playable (so-so FPS)
HQ - 800 x 600 ? 4x FSAA ? HSR 2 ? 52.9 ? Ran Perfect(1)
HQ - 800 x 600 - 4x FSAA - HSR 3 - 71.8 - Ran Perfect(1)
HQ - 800 x 600 - 4x FSAA - HSR 4 - 78.2 - Unplayable (glitchy)

Averaging 71.8 fps with absolutely ZERO graphical errors in 4x FSAA mode here.

High Quality - 1024 x 768 - No FSAA - No HSR ? 68.9 ? Ran Perfect
High Quality - 1024 x 768 - No FSAA - HSR 1 - 75.5 ? Ran Perfect
High Quality - 1024 x 768 - No FSAA - HSR 2 - 71.3 ? Ran Perfect
High Quality - 1024 x 768 - No FSAA - HSR 3 - 67.7 ? Ran Perfect
High Quality - 1024 x 768 - No FSAA - HSR 4 - 67.9 ? Ran Perfect (1)

My system ain?t the best in the world, but it?s pretty good. With PC 100 memory and a VIA chipset, I?m CPU limited in this case, hence, HSR doesn?t amount to a hill of beans for me except for HSR 1 giving me 7 extra FPS. This isn?t true with other folks who aren?t CPU bound at this level.

HQ - 1024 x 768 - 2x FSAA - No HSR ? 36.7 ? Ran Perfect
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 2x FSAA - HSR 1 - 45.6 ? Ran Perfect (1)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 2x FSAA - HSR 2 - 63.2 - Ran Perfect (1)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 2x FSAA - HSR 3 - 80.6 - Ran Perfect (1)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 2x FSAA - HSR 4 - 86.9 - unplayable (glitchy)

Check that out, guys...1024 x 768, 2x FSAA, High Quality running at 80 FPS average. That is *unreal*.

HQ - 1024 x 768 - 4x FSAA - No HSR ? 15.2 - unplayable(low fps)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 4x FSAA - HSR 1 - 20.7 - unplayable (low fps)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 4x FSAA - HSR 2 - 32.9 - unplayable (glitchy)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 4x FSAA - HSR 3 - 48.3 - unplayable (glitchy)
HQ - 1024 x 768 - 4x FSAA - HSR 4 - 61.6 - unplayable (glitchy)

HSR doesn't like 4x FSAA at all in this resolution

HQ ? 1280 x 1024 ? No FSAA - No HSR ? 42.4 ? Ran Perfect
HQ ? 1280 x 1024 ? No FSAA ? HSR 3 ? 80.4 ? Ran Perfect

Yes, that's right, HSR 3 doubled my frames per second and I did not see a glitch in the 5 minutes I played at that resolution. No need to tweak anything.

HQ ? 1280 x 1024 ? 2x FSAA - No HSR ? 20.5 ? unplayable
HQ ? 1280 x 1024 ? 2x FSAA ? HSR 3 ? 80.4 ? unplayable

I didn't have time to test the other 1280 x 1024 settings, but I will soon enough. It appears that FSAA at this resolution is tough to deliver with HSR, but, like I said, I haven't tested all the combinations yet.

So, overall, here?s what I gained with my system:
- Went from 59 to 87 fps in 800 x 600 / 2x FSAA
- Went from 28 to 71.8 fps in 800 x 600 / 4x FSAA
- Minor gains in 1024 x 768 with no FSAA
- Went from 36 to 80.1 fps in 1024 x 768 / 2x FSAA
- Went from 42.4 to 80.4 fps in 1280 x 1024

I've read several articles saying &quot;HSR is too glitchy, it's unusable, it's worthless, etc...&quot; and I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're full of it. All I can do is SWEAR that the above is accurate based on my system. On all of the ones that I marked &quot;Ran Perfect&quot; I mean that I saw absolutely zero graphical anomolies while running the demo and then playing the game for several minutes.

Here's a quick comparison that should shake the foundations of the hard-core gaming world:

Quake 3, High Quality, 1280 x 1024, No FSAA

Voodoo 5500 on my P3 815: 80.4
Leadtek GF2 GTS O/Ced on similar system: 46
ELSA Gladiac GF2 ULTRA O/Ced on 1.1 GHz Athlon: 89.5

I think we'll agree when we say that Quake 3 is the &quot;crown jewel&quot; for GF2 benchmarking. It's one of the few games currently supporting T&amp;L and it is Open GL, the realm where GF2 has pretty much ruled. I'm shocked!

In one word, WOW. This is as good as getting a brand new video card in some cases! nVidia will certainly try to respond, but I wonder how successful they will be. Their FSAA response proved to be a bit inferior to 3DFX's FSAA (subjective). I wonder if HSR will tell the same story should nVidia develop their own version.
 

jpprod

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,373
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Very interesting results - these new drivers are turning the Q3 tables in favor of 3dfx. HSR seems to do a great job eliminating overdraw, technique implemented into the drivers must consume use some extra frame buffer memory to achieve HSR as highest resolutions and FSAA settings are displaying issues. But damn, about time someone is finally seriously fighting nVidia back in the performance front :)


Notice that I'm running *4x FSAA on a Voodoo 5500* while the GF2 is only running their 2x. Not to mention that their 2x FSAA is debatably inferior.

The useful FSAA setting on GeForces is 2x2 Supersampling, which is a 4-sample technique. It isn't as efficient as 3dfx's 4-sample FSAA in removing jaggies and artifacts, but it is naturally well above 3dfx's 2-sample setting in quality.
 

Sunny129

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2000
4,823
6
81
dont worry guys, i dont plan on using there new drivers until i upgrade my system over christmas break. i'll have an OCed P3 700 cC0 on a CUSL2 w/ 256 MB Mushkin PC133 rev2. then i'll finally get to try those new drivers!


RoboTECH, what are WHQL drivers?


AirGibson, great benchmarks! i wonder why HSR does nothing for Direct 3D. And did you get a chance to test HSR with 3dfx GLide (Unreal Tournament supports Glide, i dont know about other games)?
 

Varborta

Senior member
Jul 11, 2000
441
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Very nice benchmarks thanx airgibson for the depth testing and thoghts are you one of the tech sites reviewer?
 

Varborta

Senior member
Jul 11, 2000
441
0
0
Very nice benchmarks thanx airgibson for the depth testing and thoghts are you one of the tech sites reviewer?