3dfx just unleashed their mega secret weapon HSR, will NVIDIA respond?

[Killrose]

Is this a technique that Nvida could write drivers for? And/or is this a feature that is hardware specific? and they just can't support it (until NV20)? It seems this technique is a precurser to motion blurr(?) where you draw/sort of draw both sceens (object and background) and aren't we talking performance hit with motion blurr? Especially on the cpu side of things? I'm only guessing at all of this of course and don't have a clue as to what were really talking about

 

[DominoBoy]

Well BW shows once again he is only a 3DFX Zealot who is far from reality and only likes to call people names and attack them when they point out the truth, or disagree with him. Quite sad indeed.

ROBO on the only hand (while a 3DFX fan) is honest and realistic and does not let his mind become clouded with emotion. Quite different from BW. So ROBO can be trusted, but BW can't.

OK, lets have another look here. The drivers seem to be worthless over 1024 x 768 which makes me wonder what the big deal is. The ULTRA territory is at 1280 x 1024 and 1600 x 1200, so this seems to be 'much to do about nothing.' Any current card can give playable frame rates at 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768, so this means nothing untill the high resolutions come into play. With the drivers being crippled by glitches at high resolution, they simply don't mean much.

Furthermore, does anybody else find it odd that we are only hearing about these {graphicly flawed) increases on only ONE game, and it's the SAME game that 3DFX fans have been saying for months means nothing to them, and should not even be used as a benchmark? Hmmmmm.

Not to be negative, and I wish 3DFX the best, but these drivers don't seem to do much or mean much. The whole point of more power, and the way that cards like the ULTRA seperate themselves from the crowd, is HIGH resolutions, for which these drivers seem to fail. Any card can go faster if you lower image quality. I thought 3DFX guys always talked about image quality 1st.

 

[AirGibson]

"OK, lets have another look here. The drivers seem to be worthless over 1024 x 768 which makes me wonder what the big deal is."

That is simply not true in any way, shape, or form. 1600 x 1200 I'll grant you since I wasn't able to test it on my 15" monitor. Look through my benchmarks and you will see that my 1280 x 1024 performance was *DOUBLED* with HSR 3 with absolutely ZERO glitches. On top of that, the HSR drivers have allowed me to enable 4x FSAA at 1024 x 768. I'll gladly put that image quality up against 1600 x 1200 any day.

"The ULTRA territory is at 1280 x 1024 and 1600 x 1200, so this seems to be 'much to do about nothing.'"

Again, read my results.

"Any current card can give playable frame rates at 800 x 600 or 1024 x 768"

With FSAA, that is not true. Heck, WITHOUT FSAA, the Leadtek GF2 only manages a 45 fps average on HQ Q3 timedemo 1 in 10 x 7 with a P3 800. If the GF2 is struggling to deliver playable fram rates there, how does that translate into "any current card can do it" ?

"so this means nothing untill the high resolutions come into play."

Oui...you can tell yourself that if you want to. I think you'll be rowing a lonely boat.

"With the drivers being crippled by glitches at high resolution, they simply don't mean much."

Once again, 1280 x 1024 runs perfect with absolutely ZERO glitches. I was not able to test 1600 x 1200 (only have a 15" monitor here) so I can't refute you there.

"Furthermore, does anybody else find it odd that we are only hearing about these {graphicly flawed) increases on only ONE game, and it's the SAME game that 3DFX fans have been saying for months means nothing to them, and should not even be used as a benchmark? Hmmmmm."

A) It is a simple game to benchmark.
B) It is the most popular game to benchmark.
C) It is the game that the GF2 has always beaten the 5500 in (without FSAA) and the game that many nVidia fans use to "rub it in" when arguing with 3DFX fans about how slow their card is.
D) The drivers have been out in the public eye for all of a day or two


"Not to be negative, and I wish 3DFX the best,"

LOL...that's like saying "I hate you and I hope you die. Not to be negative, or anything."

"The whole point of more power, and the way that cards like the ULTRA seperate themselves from the crowd, is HIGH resolutions, for which these drivers seem to fail."

Yes, I think the ULTRA is the king of 1600 x 1200 gaming from all I've read and seen. Do you not find it a bit strange, though, that we're having to compare a $400 (retail) card to a $200 card? I think that is what is striking alot of people as impressive.

"Any card can go faster if you lower image quality. I thought 3DFX guys always talked about image quality 1st. "

Their image quality is still the same. The only way it is worse is if you subscribe to the nonsense that HSR is always glitchy or that HSR is unusable in high resolutions. In any event, I've seen the proof and anyone else with a V 5500 has the ability to do it as well. Enable V-Sync, set Depth Precision to "Fast", and start trying out the combinations. It would appear that in many cases, 3DFX may have the speed AND quality crown, though that is purely subjective.

Domino Boy, I know there's alot of garbage out there regarding these drivers. Don't believe it. Heck, don't believe me! Go test it, or listen to someone you trust who tests it. These drivers have barely seen the light of day and already the uninformed folk are passing judgement. 90% of the time the reported graphical glitches are solved by simply setting VSync and Depth Precision settings. End of story, end of lies.

 

[Sunny129]

DominoBoy, how can you say these drivers dont do much or mean much after AirGibson has provided us with those highly in depth and detailed benchmarks? all that info hardly means that those drivers dont do much. i would also like to see some results from other games too, but thats what in depth benchmarking is all about...doing one game at a time and testing every possible aspect.

sencondly, you are complaining about the benchmarking of a video card and its new drivers using a game that, in your opinion, shouldnt be used for this specific benchmark. well we all know that OpenGL has been nVidia's premier support, whereas 3dfx does not impress anyone with OpenGL performance, but the fact remains that 3dfx still has the ability to use OpenGL support in many games. now you can look at it two different ways:

1) the performance of a 3dfx card and drivers should hold no place in the statistics books of the benchmarking community simply b/c it shouldnt be benchmarked using OpenGL support.

or...

2) Team 3dfx finally came up with something that blows nVidia out of the water using nVidia's premier 3D support, OpenGL.

and finally, you made it quite clear that these drivers will do you no good b/c you play your games at such high resolution. but when you think about it, the only problems that exist are at high resolutions. how hard and how long can it take 3dfx to fix these errors when it is simply poor rendering at high resolutions? obviously not long. and when 3dfx releases the official drivers, they'll be called official b/c they wont have problems at high resolutions...

does it honestly matter what kind of 3D support is used to render better framerates and graphics when that is ultimately what we're all looking for in the future of video cards? thats what the industry is pushing for - a combination of smoother graphics and faster framerates...and 3dfx just took a big step towards that...

 

[Deeko]

<< Deeko, so what you are saying is that, in the case that i'm looking at the front of a building, the card still renders the sides and rear of the building too, even though i cant see them? if thats the case then i would imagine that having to process that much less info would bost framerates quite a bit. >>



Kinda...say you're looking at a building, and you can't see in the building. What is inside the building is still rendered. HSR attempts to eliminate that.

 

[PG]

Since UT can now be played in opengl, has anyone tried it yet?

 

[Sunny129]

Ahriman6, thanks for the WHQL link, but there are hundreds of links after that one, and i didnt know really where to go. So basically WHQL drivers are drivers made by Windows Hardware Quality Labs for certain hardware devices not made by Microsoft in order to fix compatibility problems and optimize use under a Windows platform?

 

[Deeko]

Not made by, certified for use by.

 

[Sunny129]

ahh, i see...

 

[DominoBoy]

Sunny &amp; Air,

#1- I am not complaining about anything. I was simply saying it's ironic that the same game 3DFX Zealots have trashed for being &quot;A bad benchmark&quot;, is the same game they are now praising, that's all. It's just funny.

#2- Are you suggesting that we are to believe what one person in a chat forum says over the many people out there that are saying that high resolution is extremely screwed up with these drivers? That's would not be very wise.

#3- I see results for only ONE game, and I see mostly problems at high resolutions from what the majority of people say. That is less than acceptable proof for anything meaningfull at all.

#4- Direct3D (majority of games) seem to not benefit whatsoever.

#5- Show me ONE SINGLE reputable site or reviewer that has used these drivers and shown any solid evidence of anything.

#6- Don't give me the &quot;They just came out&quot; story, it doesn't work. Afterall, since you are so quick to proclaim them 'miracle' drivers with no ruputable proof, don't be suprised when people are quick to point out that they are worthless and mean nothing without complete and thorough testing.

Bottom Line: There seems to be increases in ONE game, and that means squat. And most reports I've read say that even in that ONE game the drivers are highly flawed, so that means less than squat.

When a reputable site (like Anand's,etc.) does an extensive review covering all types of games and also covering the graphic flaws, serious dropping frames, and flashes, then we will see what the deal really is. In the meantime, for people to get excited over ONE game showing speed increases at the cost of serious graphic flaws, it's simply premature and wishful thinking. These drivers simply mean nothing at the moment, I'm sorry but that's the reality of the situation.

You guys are also taking it too personal. I don't see anybody trashing 3DFX. All I see is truth and cold hard facts. Just because your emotions really and truly want the drivers to be good, doesn't make it true. You are jumping the gun and proclaiming 'miracle' drivers from nothing but one tiny piece of flawed evidence. Think about it and get real.

When (or if) we see across the board improvement in many different games, and there are no graphic flaws, (missing walls &amp; floors, dropping frames, flashes, etc.), then maybe the drivers will mean something. But for now, it's just smoke.

 

[Sunny129]

DominoBoy, be careful who you accuse of taking this too personal. I'll allow AirGibson to speak for himself here, but i am not taking anything personal. i may have a v5500, but that doesnt make me an nVidia hater. the reason i went with the v5500 over the GF2 GTS is b/c i was more impressed with the voodoo's performance in what i planned on using for (mainly UT and FS98). i take nothing personally when it comes to computer hardware...think about how immature that is. unfortunately, there are those individuals out there. i am merely stating the facts that have surfaced since the beginning of this thread and before...

1)Someone has gone through the pains of rigorously testing these new drivers, however he only tested one game.

2)the reason for only benig able to test one game so far i'm sure has something to do with the fact that good benchmarking is a time consuming process (using no FSAA, 1,2,and 4 sample FSAA, and levels 1 through 4 HSR, making a total number of 16 combinations to test).

while i know it is logical to be skeptical about random members posting info, it is a little far fetched to think that someone is so personally involved in making 3dfx's image look god that he or she would lie about benchmarks just to achieve that.

yes this is only one game, and yes it only tests one kind of 3D support, but this is just the beginning of a number of tests and benchmarks, whether we see them at hardware review sites or in the forums. maybe AirGibson hasnt had any chances or opportunities to build credibility with anyone in the forums, but i know you wouldnt post the same reaction toward an Elite Memeber. who knows, maybe AirGibson is a fountain of knowledge deserving of such status, but doesnt have it b/c he just joined. the fact of the matter is that those are the results he experienced under the circumstances and conditions set by himself and his system. he specified all of those circumstances anf conditions, and made it clear that the phenomenal performance of these drivers do not extend into the realm of other games, at larger resolutions, and with different 3D support.

as for getting personal...it wasnt until your last post that you took the neutral side of things and talk about the facts. your first post here simply rips into 3dfx's efforts in using HSR, like you were born to personally defend the reputation of nVidia...i think we all need to say what we want to say without bashing any companies that we dont like...as for me, ther are no companies i dislike, so dont take personally what i have to say. i just stick to the facts, and thats what everyone should do...

 

[DominoBoy]

I can respect what you are saying Sunny, but i certainly would respond the same way to a senior member. Someone's status in terms of how many posts they make doesn't mean anything. Someone who joined today is no less/more respected than someone who joined a year ago and has made 1000 posts. It's a chat forum, nothing more. There is no entrance exam, or requirements to get in.

Anyway, my first post was not meant to flame 3DFX, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was only being realistic. What's funny is that ROBO is saying a lot of the same things I am, but I don't see you saying he is bashing 3DFX. And for the record, I have lots of problems with my GeForce2 GTS's overall quality, and frankly I wish I had bought a Radeon like many of my friends. Therfore I am not defending Nvidia, and I have no reason to. You will not find one single comment from saying &quot;Nvidia Rules&quot; or &quot;3DFX Sucks&quot; etc.

It's cool man, sorry if the facts upset you. I didn't mean to get the 3DFX fans so defensive. I just think it's silly for people to proclaim the V5 to suddenly be the Ultra-Killer because of one small and highly questionable tidbit of info, that's all.

 

[Rudee]

<< Direct 3D games get nothing from HSR >>



Seeing as 90% of my games are Direct3D, this is disappointing news.

 

[Deeko]

Dominoboy....I never recall saying QIII is a bad benchmark. I recal saying that about 3DMark only. Many have said that QIII isn't the only benchmark, but they don't say it's a bad benchmark. You're funny....in a Hardware-esque way

 

[BW]

Like i said before domino. Im not a 3dfx zealot.Whatever that crap is.How old are you? I even have a Radeon. I put my mx in my sons machine. It just seems to me that whenever you do get into a post with 3dfx your in there trying your best to bring them down.You are one of the first tom poinnt out all the flaws you can. These are beta drivers REMEMBER. I think its a good step to better drivers.They will only get better. People just get excited when somthing like this comes out that improves the speed this much. I would even be happy if ATI came out with some kickass drivers couse i have the Radeon. If im a 3dfx freak then your anti 3dfx freak.I never hear you complain about the other 2 big card makers ATI,Nvidia.

 

[DominoBoy]

BW, first of all you insulted me and there was no reason for it. I then made an appropriate response to the insult. Case closed. And with all the people saying things like &quot;Card A rapes Card B&quot; or &quot;Card A Sucks&quot;, I don't think my comments are that harsh. Secondly, I have complained a lot about my GeForce2 GTS, and I can't help that you never saw my complaints. If you like, I will send you an email whenever I make another complaint about it, so you don't miss the juicy details.

Deeko, I was not talking about you specifically. You are funny too, in a BSB-esque way.

So everyone will calm down, let me just say this .........

3DFX is perfect. They have never made mistakes, or had delays in products. All their products have been even better than the hype about them before their release. They have never cancelled any products either. They produce the highest quality cards available for PC. Other companies with crap cards like Radeon and GeForce2 should hide from the V5. The new 'miracle' V5 drivers have even cured AIDS in some preliminary tests at some local clinics. I will be giving away everything I own so I can buy a pup-tent and camp out on the lawn of the 3DFX corporate offices. I would rather be close to my heroes and sleeping outside then have to stay at home and not be able to see that beautiful 3DFX sign every morning when I wake up. I am now the &quot;Artist former known as DominoBoy&quot;, and my new name is the 3DFX logo.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Do these drivers work with v3's????? I heard some guy said they worked with his voodoo3 has anyone tried??

 

[Sunny129]

I think everyone understands where everyone else is coming from as far as point of view goes. what i think is a big MISunderstanding is idea that the people in this heated discussion believe that everyone else involved is here to defend either 3dfx or nVidia. that isnt the case. its just that some people prefer 4dfx products over nVidia products. and even in that case, its true that the fact proclaim nVidia's technology to be greater in speed, image quality, and other aspects. realize that i am not a 3dfx &quot;fan&quot; who is standing up for their product. i am just one who owns a v5500 b/c it works better with my currenbt system setup and the games i like to play. if nVidia's GF2 GTS produced better framerates, FSAA, and other things, i would have gone with it instead, but i tested both and it didnt.

Domino, if you must know why i havent accused ROBO of anything, its b/c he is very factual and careful about what he says and how he says it. and you have made it perfectly clear that what you have to say isnt said to offend anyone. i think its the way you said things at first as to why people werent thrilled with your opinion. but nevertheless you cleared up the misunderstanding.

back to the issue, i think its a bit premature to assume these drivers to be worthless when in fact they are only betas anyway. one of two things will happen. either 3dfx will improve these drivers and make them official, or they wont be able to come up with a bug-free working version of these drivers and scrap them. in the case that they scrap the project, i can guarantee you 3dfx wont give up on HSR, and other companies such as nvidia, ati, matrox, etc. will also try to get in on HSR...and hey why not? its a good idea, and if any company can get it to work bug-free, more power to them.

 

[DominoBoy]

Sunny said <<&quot;either 3dfx will improve these drivers and make them official, or they wont be able to come up with a bug-free working version of these drivers and scrap them.&quot;>>

Agreed. I also agree with most of the other stuff you said in the last post too. No hard feelings.

 

[Sunny129]

guys...the forums are here to argue about facts, not to argue the way we are arguing right now. i've seen threads closed by sys ops b/c of crap like this. nobody should be defending video card labels, and likewise, nobody should be giving anyone a reason to defend by shooting a label down. i am not refering to anybody in particular, but thats how this mess got started, so lets just talk about the facts.

...and the facts are that nVidia has had the top of the hill for almost 2 years now. 3dfx has come out with some very interesting drivers that have given one forum member who has tested them very good results. now other people may not find them as impressive, if impressive at all. but lets wait and see reviews from everyone and then pass judgement...

Domino...sorry about the confusion with the membership status. Elite membership is the one kind of membership you cant just attain by posting 30,000 times. one must be knowledgeable in many areas, must provide helpful info to those with questions, not be opinionatd to the point where he or she is offending other members, etc. there is a huge difference between Daimond and Elite Member, and you can only become one if the sys op makes you one. i for onw would take those benchmarks if the y were given by an Elite member and move on to the topic of credibility, knowing that, as an Elite member, he or she either works for a review site, has a job in the PC field, or just knows a hell of alot about PC hardware to give us such accurate and in depth test results. if i offended you by the comment i'm sorry. that was not my intent whatsoever

everything's cool with me...after all, its just a discussion about 3dfx's beta drivers and people's opinions on them

 

[IBMer]

Ok now let a 3DFX support give your the correct view of HSR implamented in these drivers.

IT DOES NOT WORK.

It is more like Surface Removal.

The problem is that you don't notice a problem until you actually go in the game. The time demos are running to fast to see it, but errors FLASH in the screen for a split second every time you move.

Example of the Errors

I would also like to move on to this comment:

TextBottom Line. V5 5500 is still nowhere near as fast as a 64MB Radeon or 64MB GeForce2, much less the Ultra.

I don't agree with this statement.

Would you say, no where near as fast is 10fps or 20fps or maybe even 30fps.

If it is 20fps or 30fps then I would say nope, the statement is incorrect.

My V5 scores as well 6-7fps slower than my GTS in MAX detail in Q3. When removing Texture compression to give it equal image quality the GTS scores less than my V5.

In MDK2, with WickedGL, my V5 is as fast as my GTS, WITHOUT T&amp;L. Those are two games I play. Other games like UT, the V5 is faster as well. Most people just don't know how to run their V5 in optimum form.

 

[RoboTECH]

IBM'er, what depth precision/resolution did you take that screenie @?

did you enable vsync or &quot;sync every frame&quot;?

what version of Q3?

&quot;My V5 scores as well 6-7fps slower than my GTS in MAX detail in Q3. When removing Texture compression to give it equal image quality the GTS scores less than my V5.&quot;

can I get a HELLLLLL YEAH&quot;!?!?!?!?!

&quot;In MDK2, with WickedGL, my V5 is as fast as my GTS, WITHOUT T&amp;L.&quot;

why didn't you run the GTS with T&amp;L? I noticed that T&amp;L was slower @ 1280 and 1600

dude, benchmark MDK2 using 1024x768x16 with all the other stuff maxed, @ 2xFSAA. that's my favorite setting (that and 1600x1024 - NOT 1200!)

&quot;Most people just don't know how to run their V5 in optimum form.&quot;

AMEN!!!!!! PREACH ON BRUTHA IMBer!!!!!!

that's exactly right. Peeps see a default benchmark and say &quot;wow, 15 fps faster, the GTS wastes the 5500&quot;

now, run a taxing demo (like the Q3 Team Arena demo), and the 5500 is RIGHT on top of the GTS. Turn off that nasty-ass TC on the GTS, and the 5500 is alongside the GTS.



I'm gonna do some extensive testing of this stuff this weekend. I'm sick of reading such drastically varying responses.

/me gonna see for myself

 

[miniMUNCH]

Hey!

Can we order pizza online? Does anyone know if Pizza Hut is running the MSN passport deal or if I can link to Domino's through ebates?

 

[IBMer]

why didn't you run the GTS with T&amp;L? I noticed that T&amp;L was slower @ 1280 and 1600

No I am saying that my V5 is as fast as my GTS with T&amp;L enabled.

Actually if you know something about the program, the enabling T&amp;L option doesn't disable or enable T&amp;L, all it does it make the Lighting calculations more complex, thus requiring T&amp;L.

I enabled T&amp;L on both cards and with WickGL my V5 gets 82fps, without enabling T&amp;L my V5 gets 97fps.

The GTS gets around 90fps with T&amp;L 101fps without it enabled. At higher resolutions like 1280x1024 the difference is almost none exhistant.

 

[Sunny129]

Hey guys, what is WickedGL? is that just another form of 3D rendering like OpenGL and Direct3D?