moshquerade
No Lifer
- Nov 1, 2001
- 61,504
- 12
- 56
Do you ever take a day off from being cynical?
I truly hope your online persona doesn't match your real life persona. if so, i can't see how you'd have any friends.
Do you ever take a day off from being cynical?
I truly hope your online persona doesn't match your real life persona. if so, i can't see how you'd have any friends.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Do you ever take a day off from being cynical?
I truly hope your online persona doesn't match your real life persona. if so, i can't see how you'd have any friends.
I've never encountered a more ghoulish person than Dave. He seems to basically be rooting for anything and everything to fail, if only because it would validate his own paranoia. I have, after many years, concluded he is a bad guy at his core.
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Do you ever take a day off from being cynical?
I truly hope your online persona doesn't match your real life persona. if so, i can't see how you'd have any friends.
I've never encountered a more ghoulish person than Dave. He seems to basically be rooting for anything and everything to fail, if only because it would validate his own paranoia. I have, after many years, concluded he is a bad guy at his core.
The first thing I noticed when the bridge pics came flooding in was that pier had moved and I posted about it in the OT thread.
I got dozens and dozens of hate back from ATers that I was full of shit and it couldn't have moved before the collapse.
I may be full of shit but that piered moved prior to the collaspe and was probably the biggest reason why it went down.
And that has little to do with the pics you linked to, which show very large movement, a result of the collapse.
Personally, I don't have a problem with your theory. I do have a problem with your visual "proof". Of your links that still work, the one showing the movement or "tilt" visually show a southern shift/tilt. You claimed investigators' reports backed up your visual proof, but they reported northward shift possible.
Granted, this theory does not seem to be under scrutiny any longer as a primary cause. The gusset plates are now being scrutinized as a more likely contributor.[/quote]
Personally, I don't have a problem with your theory. I do have a problem with your visual "proof". Of your links that still work, the one showing the movement or "tilt" visually show a southern shift/tilt. You claimed investigators' reports backed up your visual proof, but they reported northward shift possible.
Granted, this theory does not seem to be under scrutiny any longer as a primary cause. The gusset plates are now being scrutinized as a more likely contributor.[/quote]
[/quote]
Gee, a pier moved and they closed the whole damn bridge, imagine that:
8-27-2007 Miss. River bridge closed at Memphis
WEST MEMPHIS, Ark. - Officials shut down a major Mississippi River bridge Monday after one of its piers settled nearly 4 inches during the night in a construction zone.
The pier that settled is between two other piers, so the Interstate 40 bridge was still supported. The most motorists might have noticed on the six-land span would have been a slight dip, officials said.
"We want to be proactive and take all the traffic off the bridge so that our inspectors can take a very thorough look at the structure before making any further decisions," said Paul Degges, chief engineer of the Tennessee Department of Transportation.
The bridge links West Memphis to Memphis, Tenn. Traffic was diverted to the nearby I-55 bridge crossing the river
Highway officials said the Arkansas-Tennessee bridge's pier had settled 3.5 inches and the bridge would be closed at least into Tuesday. The six-lane span carries 35,600 vehicles a day. The I-55 bridge carries 44,700 vehicles per day.
Workers have been improving the I-40 bridge to make it safer in case of earthquakes.
The New Madrid fault runs through the area.
"That is the area where they are doing the seismic retrofitting on the West Memphis side," said Glenn Bolick, a spokesman for the Arkansas Highway and Transportation Department, said of the pier that settled.
=======================================
Oh and according to AT experts there has been no Earthquake movement either.
They must be doing the "Earthquake retrofitting" for the Lunar Eclispe tonight.
MikeyIs4Dcats
Lifer
- Nov 5, 2001
- 18,366
- 3
- 0
Gee, a pier moved and they closed the whole damn bridge, imagine that:
8-27-2007 Miss. River bridge closed at Memphis
WEST MEMPHIS, Ark. - Officials shut down a major Mississippi River bridge Monday after one of its piers settled nearly 4 inches during the night in a construction zone.
The pier that settled is between two other piers, so the Interstate 40 bridge was still supported. The most motorists might have noticed on the six-land span would have been a slight dip, officials said.
"We want to be proactive and take all the traffic off the bridge so that our inspectors can take a very thorough look at the structure before making any further decisions," said Paul Degges, chief engineer of the Tennessee Department of Transportation.
The bridge links West Memphis to Memphis, Tenn. Traffic was diverted to the nearby I-55 bridge crossing the river
Highway officials said the Arkansas-Tennessee bridge's pier had settled 3.5 inches and the bridge would be closed at least into Tuesday. The six-lane span carries 35,600 vehicles a day. The I-55 bridge carries 44,700 vehicles per day.
Workers have been improving the I-40 bridge to make it safer in case of earthquakes.
The New Madrid fault runs through the area.
"That is the area where they are doing the seismic retrofitting on the West Memphis side," said Glenn Bolick, a spokesman for the Arkansas Highway and Transportation Department, said of the pier that settled.
=======================================
Oh and according to AT experts there has been no Earthquake movement either.
They must be doing the "Earthquake retrofitting" for the Lunar Eclispe tonight.[/quote]
that bridge pier settled due to sub-surface work occurring adjacent to it. where exactly did anything indicate it was the result of an earthquake. You are nuttier than squirrel shit sometimes.
No disputing the squirrel shit but certainly disputing the sometimes
However, I don't care what the construction crew was doing, pier should've never moved.
Same goes for Minnesota.
MikeyIs4Dcats
Lifer
- Nov 5, 2001
- 18,366
- 3
- 0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No disputing the squirrel shit but certainly disputing the sometimes
However, I don't care what the construction crew was doing, pier should've never moved.
Same goes for Minnesota.
Dude...you are an idiot. If you dig a hole or drive piers next to exisitng piers or foundations, it can cause subsidence. That is an engineering fact. The pier or footing will not move under normal circumstances.
Here is a layman's example:
Imagine you place a brick in a sandbox. You dig a hole 3" next to the brick....the sand shifts and the brick subsides.
Similarly, you place a brick on it's end in the sand. If you take a concrete vibrator and shove it in the sand near the brick, the brick will subside. The vibration caused by driving piles or drilling piers is similar.
The fact is in Memphis, someone screwed up and either didn't follow the engineer's plan, or the engineer made a mistake.
In Minnesota, we don't know what occured, but I have yet to see any proof that your "magic bullet" pier moved PRIOR to the collapse.
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 52,788
- 46,608
- 136
His premise is correct and building collapses can happen this way if things aren't done properly. Skyscrapers are a different story since they have caissons sunk to bedrock to support the enormous weight of the structure.
Since the work being done was so close to the existing pier in Memphis it would certainly be possible for it to be impacted if the contractor did something wrong or the engineering was off a little.
That's my point.
The original engineering/contracting is off if you have pier movement.
Build them correctly to begin with and you wouldn't have these problems.
MikeyIs4Dcats
Lifer
- Nov 5, 2001
- 18,366
- 3
- 0
THE ORIGINAL ENGINEERING WAS FINE. There was never supposed to be a hole duig next to the pier. The current engineer for the bridge renovation should have taken the necessary steps to prevent subsidence. That is not planned for during original construction as the original engineer would have no idea what could possibly be done 40 years in the future.
You simply have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Some of us actually have college degrees in engineering and construction management. You simply had a three-way with some wildebeast and a donkey in a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Obviously the original engineer and contractor did their job since the fucking bridge hasn't moved anywhere over the last 40 years.
MikeyIs4Dcats
Lifer
- Nov 5, 2001
- 18,366
- 3
- 0
Wow! This thread is back. I grew up in Minneapolis, work in downtown Minneapolis, and currently reside less than 5 blocks outside the city limits. (And when I can afford a home within the city limits that's not located in a gang warfare zone, I'm moving back.)
I've been to the scene many times since that bridge collapsed. The first time was just to mourn and say my OMGs. The next time was after they reopened one of the pedestrian/cycle bridges near the scene. I brought a camera. *(Links w/ pics to come--I hope--because the 500 GB Samsung hard drive the pics were stored on started making horrible noises suddenly today--clicking and clacking and whining like a little child--so I have to do some data recovery work once I eat most of the food in my freezer. Shit, that's a different story though.)
I've always thought that if there's a bridge over the Mississippi in the city that wasn't built to stand the test of time, it was that very bridge. Most of the Mississippi River bridges in the area are concrete arches built anywhere between 1917 and 1992. (Plus, up the river, there's a suspension bridge, a collection of beam bridges, and one really old, scary, steel two lane through-truss with a steel deck--it's just a steel grate--the kind that drags your tires every which way, and if you look down, you can see the water through the deck.)
The I-35W bridge was obviously built fast, and on the cheap. Such was the building technique of the sixties though. It looked like it was built out of metal toothpicks, and the main span over the entire river was supported at only four points. Four rust-encrusted points on the bottom of an oddly shaped truss structure.
Still, that was one of the most heavily used bridges in the state, and as such, it was one of the most heavily scrutinized, heavily inspected bridges as well. They've actually closed all eight lanes for repair on the structure in the past, and it seemed that they were always doing some kind of maintenance or inspection work on the thing. I really thought that they knew what they were doing. I really thought that they knew how to keep that bridge standing. But as it turns out, they didn't.
I've read all of the reports that MNDOT has made available, dating back to the early seventies. And really, that fucker was a piece of shit from day one. (Okay, maybe day two.) Fast and cheap, though, as was the technique in the sixties. The more I learn, the more pissed I become that they didn't shore up the structure and fix the bad bearings and expansion joints, as was indicated in the "Fracture Critical" inspection reports. And make plans for replacement much, much sooner than 2020. More like, 1999.
Still,
Dave,
The pier that moved in all those pictures on the north side of the river didn't cause the collapse. That pier moved as a result of the extreme lateral forces placed on it during the collapse. Have you read the inspection reports? I'm 100% certain that one "fracture critical" members of one of the two main trusses... Fractured.
The thing was rusting away, and the expansion bearing/joint system was no longer functioning as designed. Indeed, it hadn't been functioning properly since the mid-seventies, when it was noted that one of the joints only had 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of room left at 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and the roadway stringers were nearly in contact with each other. We've seen 100 degrees or more here numerous summers since them, not to mention, 15 degrees below zero.
News reports make light of a pier that had moved--about an inch to the north, measured with a plumb bob--but that was a pier supporting one of the beam-type approach spans, not the main truss.
Dave,
And all interested parties--especially those of you studying or interested in structural and civil engineering--if you have not seen all the info MNDOT has made available about this bridge, here it is. I believe the facts speak for themselves. This bridge was already in several types of failure mode, but that was mostly ignored. They thought, "eh, it's still gonna stand." But it didn't. And now MNDOT has blood on its hands.
I've been to the scene many times since that bridge collapsed. The first time was just to mourn and say my OMGs. The next time was after they reopened one of the pedestrian/cycle bridges near the scene. I brought a camera. *(Links w/ pics to come--I hope--because the 500 GB Samsung hard drive the pics were stored on started making horrible noises suddenly today--clicking and clacking and whining like a little child--so I have to do some data recovery work once I eat most of the food in my freezer. Shit, that's a different story though.)
I've always thought that if there's a bridge over the Mississippi in the city that wasn't built to stand the test of time, it was that very bridge. Most of the Mississippi River bridges in the area are concrete arches built anywhere between 1917 and 1992. (Plus, up the river, there's a suspension bridge, a collection of beam bridges, and one really old, scary, steel two lane through-truss with a steel deck--it's just a steel grate--the kind that drags your tires every which way, and if you look down, you can see the water through the deck.)
The I-35W bridge was obviously built fast, and on the cheap. Such was the building technique of the sixties though. It looked like it was built out of metal toothpicks, and the main span over the entire river was supported at only four points. Four rust-encrusted points on the bottom of an oddly shaped truss structure.
Still, that was one of the most heavily used bridges in the state, and as such, it was one of the most heavily scrutinized, heavily inspected bridges as well. They've actually closed all eight lanes for repair on the structure in the past, and it seemed that they were always doing some kind of maintenance or inspection work on the thing. I really thought that they knew what they were doing. I really thought that they knew how to keep that bridge standing. But as it turns out, they didn't.
I've read all of the reports that MNDOT has made available, dating back to the early seventies. And really, that fucker was a piece of shit from day one. (Okay, maybe day two.) Fast and cheap, though, as was the technique in the sixties. The more I learn, the more pissed I become that they didn't shore up the structure and fix the bad bearings and expansion joints, as was indicated in the "Fracture Critical" inspection reports. And make plans for replacement much, much sooner than 2020. More like, 1999.
Still,
Dave,
The pier that moved in all those pictures on the north side of the river didn't cause the collapse. That pier moved as a result of the extreme lateral forces placed on it during the collapse. Have you read the inspection reports? I'm 100% certain that one "fracture critical" members of one of the two main trusses... Fractured.
The thing was rusting away, and the expansion bearing/joint system was no longer functioning as designed. Indeed, it hadn't been functioning properly since the mid-seventies, when it was noted that one of the joints only had 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of room left at 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and the roadway stringers were nearly in contact with each other. We've seen 100 degrees or more here numerous summers since them, not to mention, 15 degrees below zero.
News reports make light of a pier that had moved--about an inch to the north, measured with a plumb bob--but that was a pier supporting one of the beam-type approach spans, not the main truss.
Dave,
And all interested parties--especially those of you studying or interested in structural and civil engineering--if you have not seen all the info MNDOT has made available about this bridge, here it is. I believe the facts speak for themselves. This bridge was already in several types of failure mode, but that was mostly ignored. They thought, "eh, it's still gonna stand." But it didn't. And now MNDOT has blood on its hands.
Thanks for your local input and voice of reason.
I wasn't saying the movement was the only cause of failure but it sure didn't help.
Plates and bolts are changed all the time but not normally piers.
There was a lot of people in here defending MNDOT and everyone else involved up there.
Very odd indeed.
Yo, we're both pissed off about this, and if you're as pissed off as I am, I at least want you to have the right information, so that you're pissed off for the right reasons. I'm sure we can agree though, it was poor maintenance on a maintenance-intensive (but cheap-and-fast-to-build) bridge design. And some would call that poor design in itself (and in my previous post, I called it a P.O.S.), but there are always trade-offs in any design or build.
As for the people defending MNDOT, well, the department fucked up big time. Given the information available, it hardly takes a genius to see that. Gambling that the steel toothpicks that held up I-35W were still strong enough after 40 years, despite warnings to the contrary, was a mighty fool's bet.
Looking like they weren't buried in bedrock at all, just sitting on some boulders.
That worked out real well for folks.
ViviTheMage
Lifer
report from the investigation has been released, they are saying it was a "design flaw" to blame
http://ap.google.com/article/A...RFgsuvJB_TQ7AD8U6F5180
http://ap.google.com/article/A...RFgsuvJB_TQ7AD8U6F5180
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