35W Bridge Collapses in Minneapolis - 8 Lanes, 4 in use

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: daniel1113
From what I've seen and heard so far, this seems like a simple structural failure (too much downward force for the bridge to support, either due to an overload situation or a weakened structure from construction) and not a weather or vibration induced failure.

It definitely makes you think about the thousands of engineered structures you pass on a daily basis.

The general public should not have to worry about structural failures of a bridge on a major interstate without some sort of Act of God or major accident. It's not like a small overpass (like the one in Quebec) built by some possibly shaky contractors. A lot of people (contractors, engineers) are going to be in deep sh!t over this.

Sure, but back in the real world, nothing is perfect, even engineering. Even structures that would be considered "standard" designs can have flaws.

Of course, it is important to keep in mind that these types of collapses are extremely rare.

Civil engineering is the most "unprecise" engineering disclipine. You'd be lucky to estimate within 10-20% of the actual maximum load that would be encountered in a structure's lifespan. The Code is supposed to take into account of construction imperfection, shrinkage, and everything else. Even if not, the engineers that built it are supposed to anticipate this.

San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge has been around since the 30's, and the main span didn't collapse in the Loma Prieta quake in 1989. 40 year old bridges should never collapse unless there is some sort of major accidents or something.

 

[Electric Mayhem]

I don't know how the environment is in MN, probably a lot of cyclic loading and thermal induced loading.

I haven't done much roadway work, but thermal loading (if it's even a design criteria) would not be a controlling factor in design. Thermal expansion is considered usually in the expansion bearings, which allow the bridge to expand/contract overall without inducing stress on the members. Unless the bridge had all fixed-type bearings, which is probably not the case here, I wouldn't think the air temp/heat had much to do with this collapse. (Unless the expansion bearings were "frozen" over time and not capable of movement with the bridge.)

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Civil engineering is the most "unprecise" engineering disclipine. You'd be lucky to estimate within 10-20% of the actual maximum load that would be encountered in a structure's lifespan. The Code is supposed to take into account of construction imperfection, shrinkage, and everything else. Even if not, the engineers that built it are supposed to anticipate this.

San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge has been around since the 30's, and the main span didn't collapse in the Loma Prieta quake in 1989. 40 year old bridges should never collapse unless there is some sort of major accidents or something.

Generally speaking, you are absolutely correct. However, I can't think of many engineers that would use the word "never". That's all I am trying to say.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

 

[alphatarget1]

DP

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Civil engineering is the most "unprecise" engineering disclipine. You'd be lucky to estimate within 10-20% of the actual maximum load that would be encountered in a structure's lifespan. The Code is supposed to take into account of construction imperfection, shrinkage, and everything else. Even if not, the engineers that built it are supposed to anticipate this.

San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge has been around since the 30's, and the main span didn't collapse in the Loma Prieta quake in 1989. 40 year old bridges should never collapse unless there is some sort of major accidents or something.

Generally speaking, you are absolutely correct. However, I can't think of many engineers that would use the word "never". That's all I am trying to say.

Agreed. Never say never. I still smell a lot of negligence....

You can't engineer for a 767 hitting the WTC when the engineers designed it. It had enough redundancy that enough people got out before it collapsed.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: pcslookout

Originally posted by: yuppiejr

Originally posted by: pcslookout

Originally posted by: bctbct
Wow, dont see many accidents like this. 40 years doesnt seem very old for a bridge to last. Some construction company is going ape shit right now.

for the victims and families.

This has happen before by wind.

You're a tard, seriously. Maybe your lack of intelligence culminated in a single blast of idiocy that weakened the bridge and caused the collapse... I'd give that theory at least as much weight as your global warming BS.

For anyone trying to track down friends/loved ones - cell/voicemail isn't an option but as a previous poster said, SMS/texting is working fine.

Text

A better example of what wind can do is perhaps the collapse of the Kinzua railroad bridge in NE Pennsylvania in 2003.

http://www.kinzua.net/kinzua_bridge.htm

 

[TheTony]

For the record, the latest information available from the state is that this is believed to be a metal structural failure, not a concrete failure nor a result of any criminal act.

Mentions of past inspection reports seem to reinforce this possibility. Whether the road work being done at the time (resurfacing) had a role isn't at all clear.

Considering among those on the bridge at the time were likely some crew personnel, not to mention those not yet rescued/recovered, that's not at all the priority now. Amazingly, only one confirmed fatality (drowning) though some national media is reporting three. Six serious/critical injuries and as many as ~20 more less serious injuries.

DHS and FBI are on the scene and have no reason for suspicion of anything beyond a structural failure.

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Civil engineering is the most "unprecise" engineering disclipine. You'd be lucky to estimate within 10-20% of the actual maximum load that would be encountered in a structure's lifespan. The Code is supposed to take into account of construction imperfection, shrinkage, and everything else. Even if not, the engineers that built it are supposed to anticipate this.

San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge has been around since the 30's, and the main span didn't collapse in the Loma Prieta quake in 1989. 40 year old bridges should never collapse unless there is some sort of major accidents or something.

Generally speaking, you are absolutely correct. However, I can't think of many engineers that would use the word "never". That's all I am trying to say.

Agreed. Never say never. I still smell a lot of negligence....

You can't engineer for a 767 hitting the WTC when the engineers designed it. It had enough redundancy that enough people got out before it collapsed.

Definitely. There are going to be a few people in big trouble. Perhaps this should make all of the engineers in the room realize the amount of responsibility that they have every time they sign off on a design or structural check.

 

[Modelworks]

They have also just added that the bridge was inspected and passed just 3 years ago.

when I first saw the pictures I thought a bomb or earthquake and happened.
Looks like the house of cards effect


Made me think of the modern marvels episode they had on engineering disasters.
Quite a few on there that seem similar to this.

 

[PELarson]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Jesus... a 40 year old bridge shouldn't collapse like that. Maybe they overloaded it during construction?

Shouldn't but do. Happened in NYS on I-90(Thruway) in 1987 when the bridge across Schorarie creek collapsed during the spring thaw with 10 casualies.

 

[Tifababy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

The ground breaking for the new stadium has been postponed because of the bridge collapse.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
They have also just added that the bridge was inspected and passed just 3 years ago.

when I first saw the pictures I thought a bomb or earthquake and happened.
Looks like the house of cards effect

Yes. From what I've seen it looks like the failure happened near where the bridge meets the shore. This bridge has no columns (free span over the water), fyi.

 

[bctbct]

yeah it must have been in the concrete, any structural failures in the steel surely would have been caught in annual inspections.

 

[EKKC]

thats what happens when you ship out KG

seriously though, i wonder how this could've happened to a bridge... part of an interstate highway too

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: Tifababy

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Electric Mayhem
I'm a structural engineer, but I work on railroad bridges, old (100 years +) and new.

It's not a secret that our country is in severe need of funding for thousands of bridge repairs and replacements, large and small, across the country, both railroad and traffic. I'm sad to say that a tragedy like this may be what's needed to get our citizens' and lawmakers' eyes to open up.

It's very shocking to see something like this. From what I read it sounds like fatigue cracks were present that ma have been a main factor. But it's too early to tell....there appear to be different types of structures and multiple spans collapsed.

At least Minneapolis will be getting a new f@#$ing baseball stadium. F@#$ politicians and their priorities.

The ground breaking for the new stadium has been postponed because of the bridge collapse.

As has tomorrow night's ball game.

Tonight's game still in progress and the stadium is in lockdown (due to its relative proximity to the interstate).

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: bctbct
yeah it must have been in the concrete, any structural failures in the steel surely would have been caught in annual inspections.

Do scheduled inspections use radiography?

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: bctbct
yeah it must have been in the concrete, any structural failures in the steel surely would have been caught in annual inspections.

Not a concrete failure.

 

[Electric Mayhem]

A better example of what wind can do is perhaps the collapse of the Kinzua railroad bridge in NE Pennsylvania in 2003.

Although that's a tornado, I wouldn't call that "wind".

A lot of civil engineering has to do with probability. What's the probability that an earthquake of a certain magnitude can hit this area in the next 100, 200 500 years? What's the probability that the river level can exceed this limit in the next 100 years? etc.. If engineers would design structures, dams, roadways, for extreme wind, snow, hydrostatic, live loads, etc. we would have very expensive, "ugly", albeit robust structures.

 

[Triumph]

And yet, no one has let us know whether or not Prince is ok. I mean, was he involved? Was he anywhere near the incident? The American people want to know.

 

[Modelworks]

They said that bridges there only get inspected every 3 years.
Alot can happen in that time.

 

[TheTony]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
They said that bridges there only get inspected every 3 years.
Alot can happen in that time.

Not sure if it's accurate, but it sounds like the last structural inspection was 2006.

 

[TheTony]

Bridge specs

 

[imported_weadjust]

Originally posted by: Triumph
And yet, no one has let us know whether or not Prince is ok. I mean, was he involved? Was he anywhere near the incident? The American people want to know.

Prince is fine. He is on his way over to your house to kick your ass for posting this shit.

 

[HardcoreRomantic]

that's the year I heard also