$35,000 Tesla Model III Is Coming In 2017

[ponyo]

This Smart Summon video driving looks pretty good. It's driving from Home Depot parking lot to Costco. I'm pretty sure this location is the Dunwoody, GA, location near Perimeter as I'm real familiar with the area and the parking lot and building layout looks just like it. If so, this is extremely busy shopping center yet the Model 3 did really well. I'm pretty impressed!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1177992581977911296

 

[ponyo]

Elon talking about maybe adding custom horn sounds and having the car speak and politely asking people to move out its way and not block. In the US, NHTSA is requiring all EV and hybrd cars to make some type of noise when traveling below 18 miles an hour. The requirement goes into effect September 2020 but all new Tesla cars now come standard with it.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1178013709546991619

 

[Kaido]

Elon talking about maybe adding custom horn sounds and having the car speak and politely asking people to move out its way and not block. In the US, NHTSA is requiring all EV and hybrd cars to make some type of noise when traveling below 18 miles an hour. The requirement goes into effect September 2020 but all new Tesla cars now come standard with it.

I want it to make the Jetsons sound:

 

[Aikouka]

I tried out Smart Summon today when out for lunch. To use it, you just open the app and hit the "Come to Me" button (or something like that), and you'll see it begin to move. Now, what you also see is the view at the top of the app switch to a top-down view of the car where it displays a bunch of white dots representing obstructions around the car. Now, I think these can be barriers (curbs, walls, etc.) or even other cars, but it doesn't seem to have a sense of where it is. It seems to be more like a constant point map that is being constantly updated and evaluated for the most clear path to the destination.

So... how did it work? Well, mine wasn't a very difficult test as it just required the car to back out and turn to the right, and then drive to me. I did halt its reverse motion twice -- the first time because a car was rip-roaring through the parking lot, and the second time because I wasn't sure how far back it was going to go. I couldn't really get a sense of depth from that distance and it was getting closer to the car behind it. It would be interesting if there was a way to stream the pertinent camera view to the phone (i.e. in reverse, show back-up camera). After that, the car turned, drove forward and came toward me. The odd part was that it leaned in toward the curb, but eventually complained that it was waiting for a pedestrian to move before proceeding... and I'm pretty sure I was that pedestrian. I eventually just left it there and got in the car... mostly because I was lucky that I hadn't gotten in someone's way and I didn't want to press my luck.

Now, I did have one kind of amusing interaction because of it. As I was getting in my car, this lady that was two cars over from where my car was parked yells out, "That freaked me out! I saw that no one was driving it and I had no idea what was going on!" "Uh... I'm sorry!"

 

[Kaido]

 

[zinfamous]

Of course people are going to be experimenting in all kinds of environment. That's the point. People can't help it. I would be testing it too if I had a Tesla. But as bad as it may be, this info and data are what's needed if Tesla is going to advance with its self driving and machine learning tech. There's no way Tesla themselves can think of all these different scenarios to program on their own. These "idiots" are helping Tesla learn and advancing their machine learning technology. You have to start somewhere and right now the cars are driving like brand new 15 year old driver. The system is going to learn as these data come in and are applied. Maybe in couple of years it will drive like normal 16 year old. And in about a decade, it might drive better and have faster reaction time than any human driver. Who knows. But without Tesla pressing forward and releasing this publicly, we wouldn't advance as quickly. I say it's worth the risks.

The owners of other cars are thinking, "That's crazy. Tesla car was driving itself. Why can't my car do that? I wish I had a Tesla."

sorry but no. This is fundamentally, dangerously irresponsible. You aren't testing some broken video game on release--you're testing a vehicle in a public space, with a dangerous malfunction. The other people in the parking lot aren't willing participants of your "experiment"

What do you tell them when your un-piloted Tesla crashes into them because you want to see how cool it is? "Sorry, brah, just testing this cool feature in my better-than-yours-car. You understand, right? I gotchu, though bro!" lol--no driver getting smashed by an un-piloted Tesla is thinking how cool this is. WTF have you been smoking? You know you'd be pissed. No one wants their car wrecked at any point during their daily routine.

It isn't about paying for your lack of responsibility, it's about wrecking other people's property, essentially on purpose because you know this thing doesn't work yet.

Don't we have enough people that complain about beta testing broken video games for evil game companies? Those have legitimate complaints....but someone it's cool to be beta testers for a company that distributes a product that is known to lead to property damage (and death)?

I'm honestly surprised that NHSTA hasn't forced a shutdown of this feature yet.

 

[ponyo]

sorry but no. This is fundamentally, dangerously irresponsible. You aren't testing some broken video game on release--you're testing a vehicle in a public space, with a dangerous malfunction. The other people in the parking lot aren't willing participants of your "experiment"

What do you tell them when your un-piloted Tesla crashes into them because you want to see how cool it is? "Sorry, brah, just testing this cool feature in my better-than-yours-car. You understand, right? I gotchu, though bro!" lol--no driver getting smashed by an un-piloted Tesla is thinking how cool this is. WTF have you been smoking? You know you'd be pissed. No one wants their car wrecked at any point during their daily routine.

It isn't about paying for your lack of responsibility, it's about wrecking other people's property, essentially on purpose because you know this thing doesn't work yet.

Don't we have enough people that complain about beta testing broken video games for evil game companies? Those have legitimate complaints....but someone it's cool to be beta testers for a company that distributes a product that is known to lead to property damage (and death)?

I'm honestly surprised that NHSTA hasn't forced a shutdown of this feature yet.

Parking lots are private. I don't think NHSTA can do anything.

There are probably more accidents in parking lots than anywhere else. My first accident was in parking lot. Someone backed out and hit my car as I was backing out. I stopped while the other driver didn't.

I'm ok with fender benders and damage to cars and personal property. Humans make the same mistakes all the time. Tesla owner or insurance can pay for the damage. I would be lot more concerned if Tesla cars started running over people and injuring or killing them. But I haven't seen one report of such accident. You can bet we would've heard it by now and it would've been front page news. So that's good. Unless we start getting multiple reports of Tesla cars hitting pedestrians, I say let the experiments and learning continue.

 

[ponyo]

Elon said over 550,000 Smart Summon uses in the first few days. Not bad.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1179520622004588544

 

[Kaido]

I'm ok with fender benders and damage to cars and personal property. Humans make the same mistakes all the time. Tesla owner or insurance can pay for the damage. I would be lot more concerned if Tesla cars started running over people and injuring or killing them. But I haven't seen one report of such accident. You can bet we would've heard it by now and it would've been front page news. So that's good. Unless we start getting multiple reports of Tesla cars hitting pedestrians, I say let the experiments and learning continue.

tbh, I'd be a lot more comfortable if Tesla put in some FLIR cameras for body-heat sensing. And the new, smaller LIDAR systems, which are more adept at picking up road debris like shredded tires, for avoidance purposes. Curious to see if the camera & radar-only system combination can really do autonomous FSD in the future...

 

[Kaido]

It isn't about paying for your lack of responsibility, it's about wrecking other people's property, essentially on purpose because you know this thing doesn't work yet.

When Tesla first came out with the Model S, I remember reading accident reports in the news with negative results on the other party's end due to the increased weight. There was one story about how a Model S rear-ended a car & killed the occupants, but the Model S driver walked away without a scratch. A Model S can be nearly 5,000 pounds. A late 90's Honda accord is almost half that.

The cynical view is that only the wealth with access to enough funds to pay for a $100,000 car can drive in ultimate safety. But there are other factors, such as:

1. Bad drivers
2. Big vehicles...dump trucks, semi-trucks, busses, RV's, etc.

There was a poorly-maintained dump truck that lost its brakes about fifteen years ago here...it plowed through like 20 cars & killed 4 people, really horrible:

Dump Truck Plows Through Intersection, Causing 20-Vehicle Accident and Killing 4 (Published 2005)

Laden with dirt as it descended a mountain into a prosperous suburb, a dump truck with a history of brake violations barreled into traffic at a busy intersection in Avon, Conn., on Friday morning, crushing cars and setting off a chain of fiery collisions that killed four people and injured 14...

www.nytimes.com

My point is, it's a dangerous world out there, with people doing all kinds of risky things - driving drunk, driving tired, driving distracted, driving angry, being a poor driver in general, not having any tread on their wheels, driving heavy machinery, etc. Tesla's software is yet another risk to add to the pile is all.

Regarding Tesla, I'm of two minds:

1. I think what they are doing is important & needed
2. I think they push the envelope & take too many risks in public, due to the pressure of doing business

We kill tens of thousands of Americans on public reads every year. This needs to stop. The technology is there & smart people are everywhere. And it needs to happen sooner rather than later. In the same ten-year span we fought the Iraq war & spent over a trillion dollars & lost almost 5,000 American lives, we lost over 300,000 lives on the roads...imagine if we had invested that money in making cars safer.

I've lost a lot of friends & family members to car accidents, stuff that would have been completely avoidable if there had been self-driving cars. But, it's risky out there, with poorly-maintained vehicles, heavy vehicles, bad drivers, etc. Tesla is on a mission to fix that, and that's a good thing.

The problem is that they are deadline-driven & thus are subject to the business pressures of competitors, stock prices & investors & bottom lines, budget restrictions, and so on. This leads to making sub-par decisions, like releasing beta software to the masses. People have literally died due to the Autopilot software. And it's a risk to drive around those heavy, software-driven vehicles. imo Tesla could do a lot better with their software rollouts & do so in a much safer way.

But, business is business, and the roads are risky, and we desperately need that software technology to advance...everything is a risk. I wish that Tesla would take a safer approach, but I'm also glad that someone is pushing the issue to make for a better future. That doesn't excuse their behavior, especially not for the families who lost loved ones from Autopilot-related accidents, but I do think it helps to see the bigger picture - there are a lot of risks out there, and progress on this stuff will continue until they perfect it, so it's a risk everyone has to deal with now.

 

[manly]

I may be accused of reading fake news, but from the articles I've seen, the feature in its current state should be called Dumb Summon.

 

[Aikouka]

So, I took my car into Tesla to get fixed last week, and they replaced my left camera... again. I went to drive home yesterday, and guess what? The exact same “Blindspot detection limited” error came back. I checked my USB drive, and yet again, the left camera’s video files are 1KB (meaning the camera isn’t working).

The camera has already been replaced twice at this point, and I’m beginning to get frustrated with it. I shouldn’t have to keep taking off of work to fix the exact same issue.

Regarding Tesla, I'm of two minds:

1. I think what they are doing is important & needed
2. I think they push the envelope & take too many risks in public, due to the pressure of doing business

In my opinion, the biggest issue that Tesla has when rolling out features is that they do a very poor job of being clear to their users about what sort of limitations the feature has, and in some cases, what it’s actually capable of.

Smart Summon obviously has limitations based upon its current AI capabilities as well as implementation, but I can’t recall a single bit of info provided to me as to what I should and should not do. The only thing Tesla said was to keep the vehicle in line of sight. This really is not adequate given the feature is arguably in more of a beta state than anything.

 

[JEDI]

I may be accused of reading fake news, but from the articles I've seen, the feature in its current state should be called Dumb Summon.

tesla stock climbing in the past 4 weeks despite the accidents of the beta-ware summon feature.
so shareholders aren't that concerned

 

[ponyo]

So, I took my car into Tesla to get fixed last week, and they replaced my left camera... again. I went to drive home yesterday, and guess what? The exact same “Blindspot detection limited” error came back. I checked my USB drive, and yet again, the left camera’s video files are 1KB (meaning the camera isn’t working).

The camera has already been replaced twice at this point, and I’m beginning to get frustrated with it. I shouldn’t have to keep taking off of work to fix the exact same issue.



In my opinion, the biggest issue that Tesla has when rolling out features is that they do a very poor job of being clear to their users about what sort of limitations the feature has, and in some cases, what it’s actually capable of.

Smart Summon obviously has limitations based upon its current AI capabilities as well as implementation, but I can’t recall a single bit of info provided to me as to what I should and should not do. The only thing Tesla said was to keep the vehicle in line of sight. This really is not adequate given the feature is arguably in more of a beta state than anything.

What's the lemon law? Is it 3 repairs of the same item and if it's not fixed, they have to buy your car back? I would definitely look into the lemon law for your state and see if you qualify if they can't fix your problem.

As for Smart Summon, it's going to get better. I would call it big success so far since we haven't heard any news of human injuries from this new feature. I'm sure the TSLAQ crowd is working around the clock to change this and trying their best to get Smart Summon to hurt a human. But think about it. What company is even close to Tesla at even releasing Alpha version of this kind of feature? The rest of the automakers can't even do simple OTA update on their cars right now. The automakers are saying they'll have OTA update feature on their cars in 2024-2025. I feel like Tesla jumped from like 5 years ahead to 10 years ahead of everyone with the V10 software update.

 

[ponyo]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...f-millions-but-it-will-kill-some-people-first

I'm usually not a fan of Bloomberg FUD coverage of Tesla but I didn't think this article was that bad.

 

[Aikouka]

What's the lemon law? Is it 3 repairs of the same item and if it's not fixed, they have to buy your car back? I would definitely look into the lemon law for your state and see if you qualify if they can't fix your problem.

I looked up the lemon law in Alabama, and it requires you to have the dealer (or their authorized agent) attempt to repair the same "nonconforming condition" three or or more times where one of those attempts must take place in the first year and the rest within the first two years. Now, this could get a bit hairy, because my first camera replacement was back in May, which was within a year of purchase, but that was technically for a different error than what I'm getting now. They both resulted in camera failure and camera-specific feature(s) not working, but the first time was more severe. The second replacement was technically right outside of a year as I picked the car up mid-September 2018 and the last repair was October 4, 2019. The problem that I'm having now is the exact same issue as the last one, but both of these are in year two.

So, the hairy part is that whether or not all three of these issues are technically related, because if they are, then I arguably have a case. After that third time, I would have to submit an official notice of nonconforming condition and give them one more time to fix it. If they fail to fix it, then I have the ability to request remediation under the lemon law. Although, one interesting part is that it states "Within seven calendar days of receiving the certified notice, the manufacturer must notify the consumer of a reasonably accessible repair facility.", and that makes me wonder if you can argue that having to drive nearly two hours for a repair may not be considered "reasonably accessible".

As for Smart Summon, it's going to get better. I would call it big success so far since we haven't heard any news of human injuries from this new feature. I'm sure the TSLAQ crowd is working around the clock to change this and trying their best to get Smart Summon to hurt a human. But think about it. What company is even close to Tesla at even releasing Alpha version of this kind of feature? The rest of the automakers can't even do simple OTA update on their cars right now. The automakers are saying they'll have OTA update feature on their cars in 2024-2025. I feel like Tesla jumped from like 5 years ahead to 10 years ahead of everyone with the V10 software update.

As for the anti-Tesla stuff, I wonder if most of it comes about due to the almost evangelical nature that some people to praise Tesla. I think some start to feel like it's almost their duty to serve as a bit of a counterpart. I mean... even as an owner, I sometimes feel almost obligated to talk about potential issues and problems (mostly those that I've seen/encountered) to paint a full picture. An example being about how I've had to deal with the service woes and Tesla's sparse service network may cause problems for some depending on location.

 

[ponyo]

I looked up the lemon law in Alabama, and it requires you to have the dealer (or their authorized agent) attempt to repair the same "nonconforming condition" three or or more times where one of those attempts must take place in the first year and the rest within the first two years. Now, this could get a bit hairy, because my first camera replacement was back in May, which was within a year of purchase, but that was technically for a different error than what I'm getting now. They both resulted in camera failure and camera-specific feature(s) not working, but the first time was more severe. The second replacement was technically right outside of a year as I picked the car up mid-September 2018 and the last repair was October 4, 2019. The problem that I'm having now is the exact same issue as the last one, but both of these are in year two.

So, the hairy part is that whether or not all three of these issues are technically related, because if they are, then I arguably have a case. After that third time, I would have to submit an official notice of nonconforming condition and give them one more time to fix it. If they fail to fix it, then I have the ability to request remediation under the lemon law. Although, one interesting part is that it states "Within seven calendar days of receiving the certified notice, the manufacturer must notify the consumer of a reasonably accessible repair facility.", and that makes me wonder if you can argue that having to drive nearly two hours for a repair may not be considered "reasonably accessible".



As for the anti-Tesla stuff, I wonder if most of it comes about due to the almost evangelical nature that some people to praise Tesla. I think some start to feel like it's almost their duty to serve as a bit of a counterpart. I mean... even as an owner, I sometimes feel almost obligated to talk about potential issues and problems (mostly those that I've seen/encountered) to paint a full picture. An example being about how I've had to deal with the service woes and Tesla's sparse service network may cause problems for some depending on location.

If you think you have a lemon law case, pursue it. Don't let your rights expire. At worst, it will light a fire to Tesla to really tackle your problem.

As for the $TSLAQ anti-Tesla crowd, you're talking about vile group of individuals with strong financial interest in seeing Tesla fail. But unlike evangelical Tesla supporters who also have financial interest in seeing Tesla succeed, the $TSLAQ is not against breaking the law to hurt Tesla. Some of these people should be behind bars.

 

[Kaido]

As for the anti-Tesla stuff, I wonder if most of it comes about due to the almost evangelical nature that some people to praise Tesla. I think some start to feel like it's almost their duty to serve as a bit of a counterpart. I mean... even as an owner, I sometimes feel almost obligated to talk about potential issues and problems (mostly those that I've seen/encountered) to paint a full picture. An example being about how I've had to deal with the service woes and Tesla's sparse service network may cause problems for some depending on location.

Tesla is the modern Apple...you've got the rabid fanboys & then you've got the haters for exactly that reason, people feel obligated to push back from the over-zealousness. Why exactly you would spend all your free time being negative about a particular hardware product online, I'll never know, but other than those with a financial interest in seeing Tesla fail, there are just trolls out there. People need to learn how to let people enjoy things, lol.

I was at the (only) service center in my state the other day, because my buddy's car had a wiring harness-related issue & he needed a ride. Sparse doesn't even begin to describe it. I feel kinda bad for the people working there - everyone needs a job, but it's obvious that Tesla isn't providing much in the way of corporate support to them - it just seems like an extremely reactive type of setup. Even Saturn had way better dealerships & service centers than Tesla does, at least outside of the California side of the fence.

imo I think that's one of the reasons Tesla doesn't do any marketing - they don't have the repair & support network available to support that kind of demand. I work at a lot of different customer sites & talk to customers all the time about electric cars, self-driving, etc. & people in general have no idea about any of it, other than "it exists". So the national story & mindset really needs to be updated, but Tesla needs to build out their fix-stuff network before that happens.

They also need to do training waaaaaay better. They kind of expect that you'll arrive to pick up your car as a self-educated fanboy. Particularly for people who just want a neat car, they really need far more education than is provided, especially for the updates like Smart Summon. I mean, the majority of the people who buy a Tesla are already fans & are willing to learn on their own, but if Tesla wants to hit the general population, they need to step up their game quite a bit.

All of that will come, in time. There still some teething issues. I got bit on my Jeep Renegade lemon & I spent far too much time letting that thing haunt my life, especially in how much frustration I let it consume in my day to day life (lesson learned!)...I hope that yours is a simple fix & not a major flaw in your particular car! Hopefully it's just an upstream control board or something that is mis-wired & needs replacing & then the probably can be permanently solved.

I do plan on getting a Y down the road, so I'm hoping a lot of these issues are resolved a couple years from now, after the Y has had a chance to be out for a year or so & get all of the kinks worked out of the system. The latest Model 3's rolling off the line seem to be pretty good in terms of body panel fit & other issues being resolved, and that's typically the case with any mass-market hardware product...they're under the gun with a release deadline & have to ship stuff & then fix it later.

 

[JEDI]

They also need to do training waaaaaay better. They kind of expect that you'll arrive to pick up your car as a self-educated fanboy. Particularly for people who just want a neat car, they really need far more education than is provided, especially for the updates like Smart Summon. I mean, the majority of the people who buy a Tesla are already fans & are willing to learn on their own,

but if Tesla wants to hit the general population, they need to step up their game quite a bit.

but can tesla keep up with demand right now? much less the general public?
didn't they miss production quotas this last quarter?
or was Musk just shooting his mouth off/hype about 3rd and 4th quarter results?

 

[manly]

Can anyone else spot the evangelical TSLA bull?
I'd love to see that marketing campaign.

Smart Summon, driving to you in a parking lot at 5 mph. Unlike Autopilot, it hasn't killed anyone... yet.

 

[Kaido]

 

[zinfamous]

If you think you have a lemon law case, pursue it. Don't let your rights expire. At worst, it will light a fire to Tesla to really tackle your problem.

As for the $TSLAQ anti-Tesla crowd, you're talking about vile group of individuals with strong financial interest in seeing Tesla fail. But unlike evangelical Tesla supporters who also have financial interest in seeing Tesla succeed, the $TSLAQ is not against breaking the law to hurt Tesla. Some of these people should be behind bars.

It's also worthwhile trying to pursue a buyback with Tesla before going the Lemon Law and lawyers route. Manufacturers are generally more malleable to a process outside of Lemon Law, because cars bought back via LL require reporting on the vehicle.

However, it might be more difficult to pursue an individual buyback if you don't have a trend of similar failures reported across many vehicles.


...and to be fair, you do have the chief Tesla evangelical, that Musk dude, that also is not against breaking the law to support Tesla. He even got sanctioned for it.

 

[Aikouka]

So, I took the car on a bit of a trip this past weekend (~900 miles each way), and I've got some thoughts.

1. Supercharging Is a Mixed Bag
   The problem that I encountered is that not all supercharging stations are built the same... and I don't mean the number of stalls. Some of them aren't able to provide the same amount of power as others, and it's also possible that you'll run into issues that complicate charging. For example, I used the Allentown, PA supercharger three times in one day. In the morning, it worked great. In the early afternoon, it was horribly slow... about twice as fast as a destination charger. In the late evening, it was not as good as the morning, but far better. I also saw some cases where one charger (Wytheville, VA) couldn't handle the load of most stalls being full, and that resulted in significantly worse charging. On the other hand, I had one charger (Harrisburg, PA) at 7/8 stalls full, and it was absolutely fine (500+ mi/hr charge rate).
   
   It's also worth noting that some superchargers are just in weird locations. The aforementioned Harrisburg, PA location was literally behind a Weis supermarket in a strip mall. The worst one had to be the Chattanooga, TN location, which was quite literally inside the Chattanooga airport's long-term parking lot, which meant you had to take a ticket just to charge. If you spent more than 15 minutes in the lot, you'd have to start paying for parking.
2. Route Guidance Needs Charge Level Options
   One problem that I ran into with navigation is that it didn't seem to care what my charge level was at the destination as long as it was 10% or higher. In my case, the original navigation route would've had me arrive at my destination with about 10% charge left. There are three problems with this....
   1. Tesla supposedly uses your average energy consumption to determine how far you can go, but that doesn't necessarily work if some areas are simply more demanding than others. So, the 10% may seem slightly acceptable, but in the end, it may actually not be nearly enough if your actual energy usage is higher.
   2. My destination was a more local city, which meant it had very little in charging infrastructure. It had two destination chargers, and the nearest supercharger was about 20+ miles away. Sending me to this place with such a little charge is a really, really bad idea, and I ended up manually adding a leg to my route. Keep in mind that doing this requires you to cancel the existing route and simply create a new route as there is no way to actually modify the current route.
   3. Tesla also doesn't allow for any sort of options like "preferred minimum charge", which would be helpful.
3. Spotify's Shuffle Doesn't Work
   This was an odd issue that I ran into. It seems that the in-car Spotify app doesn't properly shuffle its music. I kept noticing that after maybe 10-15 songs, I'd literally get those songs over and over and over. In fact, sometimes, I would get the same song in a row. The only way to fix this bug is to turn off shuffle, hit previous/next to change the song, and hit shuffle again.
4. AT&T Wireless And/Or Tesla's Cellular Is Really Bad
   Now, I want to be clear that I can't really tell what's the issue in some cases, but I ran into so many problems with just trying to listen to music in the car, that I eventually gave up. I switched to my phone and just ran Spotify on the phone instead. The problem that I'd normally run into is that the songs would just randomly stop with a "Loading Error". I'd usually look up at the signal reading to see a full signal, which suggests that I just switched towers. So, there may be an issue with Tesla's modem that doesn't handle swapping towers well. Although, on the flip side, I've never been a fan of AT&T Wireless. I've had so many issues with them and poor tower connectivity in the past, and I see the same problems with my car.
   
   It also doesn't help that some features rely so heavily on wireless, and AT&T's coverage isn't that great. In the somewhat more remote destination, AT&T devolved to 3G, which just wouldn't work for a while. (It eventually started working a few hours later.) This meant that I couldn't even enter a navigation destination as the car couldn't talk to the Internet to perform route guidance. I had to enable hotspot on my Verizon-based phone, and let my car run navigation through that instead. I still think that if Tesla is going to make us pay for connectivity, they need to start offering more choices. I don't want to pay for the vastly inferior Slacker or AT&T Wireless.
5. Automation
   I ended up not really being a fan of Autosteer, Traffic-Assisted Cruise Control, or Navigate on Autopilot during the trip. Part of the reason why I took the trip in the first place is that I've always heard a lot of people say how "magical" it is driving with a Tesla instead due to its features. So, I really wanted to give that a shot. Going into each feature...
   • Traffic-Assisted Cruise Control wasn't too bad, but the biggest problem is that there's really no way to tell exactly when it's going to start slowing down, and anyone that took physics in high school knows that conserving momentum is a pivotal part of efficiency. (That's even more important when your car is trying to make you arrive somewhere with 10% charge.) I normally would have to just be laser focused on the speedometer to see when I'd drop 1 MPH, and then move over.
     
     Speaking of efficiency, it's really bothersome that the car has such a "robotic nature" of handling things rather than a more intuitive driver's sense. For example, if you're stuck behind a line of cars and the one in front of you moves over, the car will surge forward up toward your max speed until it reaches the next car. This sounds great and all... but what if the next car isn't all that far ahead of you? As a driver, you're likely to be far less aggressive on the accelerator as you just want to slowly close the gap left by the other car, but the car takes the "there's no one slowing me down... ACCELERATE!" approach.
   • Navigate on Autopilot was enabled for most of the time, so it was active while using Autosteer. The problem is that Navigate on Autopilot sometimes waits far too long to move over, and in general, it just feels a little too clunky and unnatural. In some cases, it also lacks that aforementioned "driver's intuition" as it would attempt to pass a car that I knew we would never be able to pass at our max speed. (The car that just went slower for a tiny bit but has been going consistently faster than us most of the time.) I was also very hesitant to use Autosteer around any sort of construction area due to potentially confusing lines (usually from shifted lanes).

In the end, I actually spent time in full control of my car, and ended up planning routes myself due to being tired of poor charge level planning by the car. Probably the worst aspect of it is that it's just really hard to figure out when you'll actually arrive somewhere. This is mostly due to charging being a bit random that you never know how much time it will add to your trip.

I was at the (only) service center in my state the other day, because my buddy's car had a wiring harness-related issue & he needed a ride. Sparse doesn't even begin to describe it. I feel kinda bad for the people working there - everyone needs a job, but it's obvious that Tesla isn't providing much in the way of corporate support to them - it just seems like an extremely reactive type of setup. Even Saturn had way better dealerships & service centers than Tesla does, at least outside of the California side of the fence.

Well, the weird thing about my local service center is that I'm not even sure where they work on the cars. They have this little garage-like area that you pull the car up to, and get setup, but there's no actual workshop there at all. I don't know if they're trying to obfuscate the nitty-gritty from the users... sort of making things look "clean".

imo I think that's one of the reasons Tesla doesn't do any marketing

They've usually said that they don't do marketing to save money, and they encourage the owners to do the boots-on-the-ground marketing for them. But I do think that Tesla is very ill-equipped to handle an influx of vehicles.

They also need to do training waaaaaay better. They kind of expect that you'll arrive to pick up your car as a self-educated fanboy. Particularly for people who just want a neat car, they really need far more education than is provided, especially for the updates like Smart Summon. I mean, the majority of the people who buy a Tesla are already fans & are willing to learn on their own, but if Tesla wants to hit the general population, they need to step up their game quite a bit.

But that would only include the features that are available at the time you picked the car up. I've received a number of new features just in the past year of ownership, and there really isn't a good way -- at least not that I've seen -- to learn about them. Well, apart from finding a video from the usual Tesla-oriented YouTube people that goes into details about it. (That sort of goes back to the whole marketing thing that Tesla relies on.) The only thing I normally get from Tesla is an e-mail telling me about major patch releases and what are some banner features in it.

I do plan on getting a Y down the road, so I'm hoping a lot of these issues are resolved a couple years from now, after the Y has had a chance to be out for a year or so & get all of the kinks worked out of the system. The latest Model 3's rolling off the line seem to be pretty good in terms of body panel fit & other issues being resolved, and that's typically the case with any mass-market hardware product...they're under the gun with a release deadline & have to ship stuff & then fix it later.

I just really hope that Elon stops trying to treat his cars based on some grand vision of what he thinks they will eventually become. For example, they don't think it's a bad idea to not have physical light or wiper controls because the car will drive itself. The Model 3 has been shipping for over a year and a half now, and that's still not really the case, but the whole time, you've got drivers having to deal with the poor safety of the existing implementation.

 

[Kaido]

I just really hope that Elon stops trying to treat his cars based on some grand vision of what he thinks they will eventually become. For example, they don't think it's a bad idea to not have physical light or wiper controls because the car will drive itself. The Model 3 has been shipping for over a year and a half now, and that's still not really the case, but the whole time, you've got drivers having to deal with the poor safety of the existing implementation.

First, thank you for the detailed review & honest thoughts!

Second, yeah - even the auto-wipers thing really bugged me in my buddy's car, mostly because they didn't seem to ever want to work right! At the moment, it's a really neat vehicle IF you understand the limitations & enjoy it for what it is, but it was scary driving next to semi-trucks that were bobbing around in the lane & the Model 3 was dead-set at staying in the exact freaking center of the lane!

I 100% understand Elon's optimistic approach...I've got ADHD & struggled with the same thing he does for many years, in terms of having this grand, glorious vision in your head, but the reality not quite lining up with that vision for various reasons. You totally hit the nail on the head when you said "what he thinks they will eventually become". It's a self-motivating way to work on things, because you get enamored with the idea & want to make it a reality, when in fact, things simply take time to happen.

That, and he has a business to run, and is savvy as far as manipulating the stock prices & whatnot goes. He now runs a public company that has to do quarterly reports & needs to move cars to make those numbers look good, so things get pushed out early & half-baked sometimes, or delayed for ages & ages, but he keeps pushing himself along with that grand vision of what he sees in the future. Which is totally fine, as long as you're aware of how he operates & don't drink the kool-aid too much, haha!

I think what he is doing is really, really cool, but I've also learned to temper that with vaporware vs. things that are already available on the market, right now, today. If you are OK with living with an electric car with a limited range & a longer charge time than just fueling up at a gas station, and don't mind participating in beta software, then it's a pretty slick vehicle. I still plan on getting one...eventually! For now, I'll keep an eye on how things are progressing, haha!

If you were to be presented with the purchase option again today, would you still buy the car? Would you buy the performance model instead & dump the autopilot?

 

[Aikouka]

Second, yeah - even the auto-wipers thing really bugged me in my buddy's car, mostly because they didn't seem to ever want to work right! At the moment, it's a really neat vehicle IF you understand the limitations & enjoy it for what it is, but it was scary driving next to semi-trucks that were bobbing around in the lane & the Model 3 was dead-set at staying in the exact freaking center of the lane!

I thought of a potentially interesting solution for the auto-wipers that might help at least a bit. The biggest problem with auto-wipers is simply that they're too slow. If they're too fast, it's kind of annoying, but at least it's not unsafe. So, I'd argue that the "too slow" aspect is what needs to be addressed. If this can't be easily tuned in software, what about adding a simpler human-based element? For example, let's say my auto-wipers are at a "level 1" speed, and I've pressed the wipe button a few times (not sure what's the best amount). The system takes this into account, and automatically increases the auto-wiper speed. Essentially, the system would be interpreting manually induced wipes as an indication that the auto-wipe speed is too slow.

Well, that kind of goes back to the whole "robotic" nature of the AI... and that's always going to be an issue with AI. AI works fantastically when its interacting with other AI, because they work in such rigid natures, but humans don't usually act that way. For example, with your tractor trailer example, in my experience, the Tesla would deem that the truck is in your lane and slow down to meet its speed. As a driver, I would use what I've seen to assert that the truck made a minor mistake, and sort of... keep an eye on it as I went to go past. I'd like move over a bit just in case, but in general, I would assume it was a mishap and not treat it any differently.

That's really the same issue that we've seen with the Smart Summon. Smart Summon is currently a very basic shortest path algorithm that builds its environment from visuals and sensors, and has an understanding of how to move around. The problem is that parking lots are the driving equivalent of the lawless Wild West. ArsTechnica posted an article today about Smart Summon, and you can definitely see how the example videos show that it doesn't understand people and how we interact in these sort of situations. Another example from the article is how the car got stuck because it didn't understand that the user was close by, but on the other side of a divider (grassy median, etc.), and that required the car to drive around.

I 100% understand Elon's optimistic approach...I've got ADHD & struggled with the same thing he does for many years, in terms of having this grand, glorious vision in your head, but the reality not quite lining up with that vision for various reasons. You totally hit the nail on the head when you said "what he thinks they will eventually become". It's a self-motivating way to work on things, because you get enamored with the idea & want to make it a reality, when in fact, things simply take time to happen.

It reminds me a lot of Peter Molyneux, and we saw what eventually happened to the Fable series.

If you were to be presented with the purchase option again today, would you still buy the car? Would you buy the performance model instead & dump the autopilot?

With today's numbers and my knowledge, I'd definitely go for the Performance model without Full Self-Driving over my existing model. (That includes the change from my model having EAP to the new one having AP.) However, I also think that I'd prefer to skip the Model 3 entirely, and strongly consider waiting for the Model Y. After doing a bit of traveling, I think I'd like the hatchback over the standard trunk. Although, I am curious to see if the Model Y will get any price changes that bring it in line with -- or close to -- the Model 3's updated pricing.