2020 census to include citizenship question

[ivwshane]

https://www.census.gov/2010census/about/constitutional.php

The U.S. Constitution empowers the Congress to carry out the census in "such manner as they shall by Law direct" (Article I, Section 2)

It's not just about population anymore. The times they are a-changin'.

Man you are on a roll tonight!

 

[Jhhnn]

https://www.census.gov/2010census/about/constitutional.php

The U.S. Constitution empowers the Congress to carry out the census in "such manner as they shall by Law direct" (Article I, Section 2)

It's not just about population anymore. The times they are a-changin'.

It also specifies that all persons shall be counted. The language is quite clear-

[Article 1 Section 2]: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.

[14th Amendment]: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States….Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It also specifies that all persons shall be counted. The language is quite clear-

No one is saying they shouldn’t be counted. Answering a simple question doesn’t prevent them from being counted. I easily answer that very question at least once a week to access basic services. Data, so oppressive.

 

[fskimospy]

No one is saying they shouldn’t be counted. Answering a simple question doesn’t prevent them from being counted. I easily answer that very question at least once a week to access basic services. Data, so oppressive.

It makes it so far fewer of them respond, meaning fewer would be counted. As counting as many people as possible is the literal point of the census, this is a dumb idea.

 

[Starbuck1975]

It makes it so far fewer of them respond, meaning fewer would be counted. As counting as many people as possible is the literal point of the census, this is a dumb idea.

Asking a question in no way prevents them from being counted. If fewer choose to respond, that is their choice.

 

[fskimospy]

Asking a question in no way prevents them from being counted. If fewer choose to respond, that is their choice.

Who cares about what their choice is? The goal of the census is to count as many people as possible, it is not to simply count those motivated to respond. Again, the ONLY goal here should be to get the best, most accurate census possible. This question makes the census less accurate.

If you want to make the census worse in order to include a question then you're going to have to clear a high bar to justify it. What's your justification?

 

[Jhhnn]

No one is saying they shouldn’t be counted. Answering a simple question doesn’t prevent them from being counted. I easily answer that very question at least once a week to access basic services. Data, so oppressive.

And now, deliberately obtuse.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Who cares about what their choice is? The goal of the census is to count as many people as possible, it is not to simply count those motivated to respond. Again, the ONLY goal here should be to get the best, most accurate census possible. This question makes the census less accurate.

If you want to make the census worse in order to include a question then you're going to have to clear a high bar to justify it. What's your justification?

You’ve yet to demonstrate how asking a question makes the census less accurate

And now, deliberately obtuse.

Your “go to answer” when you are unable to respond

 

[fskimospy]

You’ve yet to demonstrate how asking a question makes the census less accurate

There's plenty of empirical evidence that illegal immigrants are less likely to use services they qualify for due to fear of being found out. Ivwshane linked earlier in this thread that internal census testing showed similar concerns for illegal immigrants filling out the census. It is common sense that if people were already afraid of filling out a census WITHOUT a citizenship question because their illegal status might be disclosed that such a fear would be significantly greater with an explicit citizenship question. It's hard to see how anyone could dispute that.

Lower response = less accurate census. So again, we're going to need some strong justification for this. What is it?

 

[fskimospy]

Well this is awkward:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ernment-camps-in-wwii/?utm_term=.da1a973f6990

In fact, information from the 1940 Census was secretly used in one of the worst violations of constitutional rights in U.S. history: the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.

In papers presented in 2000 and 2007, historian Margo J. Anderson of the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee and statistician William Seltzer of Fordham University found evidence that census officials cooperated with the government, providing data to target Japanese Americans.

...

In 2000, Anderson and Seltzer found documents that showed officials with the Census Bureau had provided block-level information of where those of Japanese ancestry were living in California, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Idaho and Arkansas.

The revelations prompted Kenneth Prewitt, then director of the U.S. Census Bureau, to issue a public apology. Prewitt wrote: “The historical record is clear that senior Census Bureau staff proactively cooperated with the internment, and that census tabulations were directly implicated in the denial of civil rights to citizens of the United States who happened also to be of Japanese ancestry."

Anderson and Seltzer, however, weren’t finished. They suspected that despite the bureau’s denials, it had also released “microdata” — information about individuals, including names and addresses.

In 2007, they found proof, uncovering documents that showed Census Bureau officials provided names and addresses of individuals of Japanese ancestry in Washington, D.C.

It's important to note that these disclosures weren't illegal at the time, but that's because the second war powers act permitted the release of that data. That means they gave their information to the government when disclosing it was illegal, but then the government changed the law to make it legal. So the thing that several people in this thread claim illegal immigrants shouldn't be worried about has literally happened in the past.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Let me spell it out for you.

If the US has the balls (as other sovereign countries on Earth are doing now to the "undocumented") to do what it needs to be done, then we would not have that freaking huge "undocumented" problem, then the citizenship question on the census would be a moot point (see the poster above about Canada question about citizenship on the census).

Speaking of Canada, eh? - http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-canadian-envoy-tps-20180129-story.html

I suspect that article is not making the point that you think it is:

"Carlos Hernandez was one of them. After more than a decade of living in Raleigh, N.C., the 37-year-old uprooted his life and moved to London, Ontario, where he is currently a legal resident.

In the U.S., Hernandez and his wife Maritza lived a solid middle-class life. He made enough money as a construction worker to buy a three-bedroom home, two vehicles and still have enough for savings. His young children attended good schools.

But he said that in a moment of confusion about the legal process he skipped his asylum hearing in Atlanta.

After a notice of removal showed up for him in the mail in 2009, he lived in constant fear. Trips the family used to take to the beach or water parks got scratched. Driving became strictly reserved for going back and forth from work and errands. His cousin, who lived in Canada, persuaded him to move there.

"It's a beautiful country and you'll make solid money," he told him.

A few months later, the Hernandez family sold all of their belongings, packed into one car and headed to Canada, where they showed up at a port of entry. They said they had family in the country and wanted to apply for asylum.

After losing his asylum case in Canada, he was able to gain legal residency on humanitarian grounds. Hernandez, a certified carpenter, said he makes double what he made in the U.S.

It was the best decision he ever made, Hernandez said. He's never felt so welcomed.

"The older folks will say hello and ask you questions about where you are from. It feels good," he said. "I feel like I was born here."

 

[pcgeek11]

So he went through the proper process in Canada, but chose the illegal route in the USA.

 

[Jhhnn]

You’ve yet to demonstrate how asking a question makes the census less accurate


Your “go to answer” when you are unable to respond

First, start raving about deporting all illegals & building a wall. Next, ask them to rat themselves out in the Census. Finally, pretend it won't depress Census participation by illegals.

What planet are you from, anyway?

 

[Starbuck1975]

First, start raving about deporting all illegals & building a wall.

I never have. The wall is a waste of resources and deportation is not feasible

Next, ask them to rat themselves out in the Census.

There are no repercussions to filling out a census

Finally, pretend it won't depress Census participation by illegals.

It’s a simple question

What planet are you from, anyway?

The planet where people don’t perceive simple questions as oppressive micro-aggressions

 

[Jhhnn]

I never have. The wall is a waste of resources and deportation is not feasible

Not according to the POTUS. He has the power & you don't.

There are no repercussions to filling out a census

That's what they told the Japanese in 1940. It's not like Trump or the GOP have given illegals any reason to trust them in the slightest. Their treachery wrt the Dreamers & the Salvadoran refugees is illustrative.

It’s a simple question

And a dishonest one.

The planet where people don’t perceive simple questions as oppressive micro-aggressions

Gamergate lingo, huh?[/QUOTE]

 

[Starbuck1975]

Not according to the POTUS. He has the power & you don't.

That’s usually how it works

That's what they told the Japanese in 1940. It's not like Trump or the GOP have given illegals any reason to trust them in the slightest. Their treachery wrt the Dreamers & the Salvadoran refugees is illustrative.

Which is why deferments are bad policy, they create false expectations

And a dishonest one.

And yet I bet you’ve answered that question on numerous occasions without even giving it a second thought

Gamer gate lingo, huh?

I didn’t coin the phrase. Take it up with the thought police

 

[Jhhnn]

That’s usually how it works

So you admit that your "I never have" assertion was disingenuous.

Which is why deferments are bad policy, they create false expectations

Yeh, expectations of decency from people who have none.

And yet I bet you’ve answered that question on numerous occasions without even giving it a second thought

So what? I've never been in the position where the answer could be to my detriment.

I didn’t coin the phrase. Take it up with the thought police

It's not sufficiently subtle to be labeled as micro aggression. It's a naked ploy to convince illegals not to participate in the Census so that blue urban areas won't receive fair representation. It serves no other purpose.

 

[nickqt]

So you admit that your "I never have" assertion was disingenuous.



Yeh, expectations of decency from people who have none.



So what? I've never been in the position where the answer could be to my detriment.



It's not sufficiently subtle to be labeled as micro aggression. It's a naked ploy to convince illegals not to participate in the Census so that blue urban areas won't receive fair representation. It serves no other purpose.

Remember. It isn't just "illegals".

It asks about Citizenship.

There are millions of non-citizens who are legally in this country, paying taxes, and legally entitled (not a bad word) to government services.

The question isn't just to scare "illegals". It's to scare non-citizens into just tossing the form somewhere else, because why bother with it when it could have implications that aren't worth filling out a form.

The question has a chilling factor on getting an accurate picture of how many people live in an area.

Which, of course, helps rural areas continue their over-representation at all levels of government.

 

[Jhhnn]

Remember. It isn't just "illegals".

It asks about Citizenship.

There are millions of non-citizens who are legally in this country, paying taxes, and legally entitled (not a bad word) to government services.

The question isn't just to scare "illegals". It's to scare non-citizens into just tossing the form somewhere else, because why bother with it when it could have implications that aren't worth filling out a form.

The question has a chilling factor on getting an accurate picture of how many people live in an area.

Which, of course, helps rural areas continue their over-representation at all levels of government.

I suspect the effect would be less among legal immigrants but, yeh, that too.

The whole thing is fundamentally dishonest as are the lame justifications for it but it's sadly what we can expect from the GOP about everything. Honest democracy is not their goal.

 

[zinfamous]

Asking a question in no way prevents them from being counted. If fewer choose to respond, that is their choice.

This is weird. You just claimed that a question can't possibly lead to someone not responding...but hey, if they don't respond anyway, that's their problem.

What a strange world you live in, to contradict yourself in a single sentence and then go about like doesn't afraid of anything!

 

[Starbuck1975]

This is weird. You just claimed that a question can't possibly lead to someone not responding...but hey, if they don't respond anyway, that's their problem.

What a strange world you live in, to contradict yourself in a single sentence and then go about like doesn't afraid of anything!

An irrational fear of a question is their problem. What a strange world you must live in where answering a basic question is so concerning.

 

[ch33zw1z]

An irrational fear of a question is their problem. What a strange world you must live in where answering a basic question is so concerning.

If you would put yourself in their shoes for a moment, it's doubtful you'd feel the same.

 

[umbrella39]

You’ve yet to demonstrate how asking a question makes the census less accurate


Your “go to answer” when you are unable to respond

Not my question but I would think that if just one person doesn't turn in their census now who otherwise would have if the question wasn't there...

There is your answer.

and yes before you feel the need... this of course is their choice.

Should accuracy be left up to chance or choice? That's probably a better question to be asking...

 

[Starbuck1975]

If you would put yourself in their shoes for a moment, it's doubtful you'd feel the same.

My grandfather and great grandfather were both immigrants at a time when the question was on the census. I doubt they were able to answer it, not because of the question itself, but because the census was probably not in their native language.

 

[ch33zw1z]

My grandfather and great grandfather were both immigrants at a time when the question was on the census. I doubt they were able to answer it, not because of the question itself, but because the census was probably not in their native language.

*shrug*, ineffectual comparison.