2016 Miata - R&T First Drive

[manimal]

how did your BRZ die Xavier?

 

[Wuzup101]

I'm not discounting anyone's opinions. I'm saying that you need to consider what the market wants vs what you want. Did I ever say I don't want a higher-powered Miata? Of course I would, that's why I have a turbo Miata. What I do understand and appreciate is that I am in the minority on that. It's very easy to forget that the small (and it is quite small) group of enthusiasts in a place like ATG isn't the whole auto market. ATG is full of people with very, very fast cars, and many people here forget that the rest of the country doesn't have the same hunger for horse-ponies.

About 5400 MSMs were ever made. Yes, they were desired, but out of the 1M or so Miatas ever made they were a VERY small fraction. I would argue that the reason some, or many, of these cars sold wasn't the extra power, but the limited-edition appeal as well as the stunning colors offered only on the MSM.

First of all, I absolutely agree with the first paragraph above. I often get over excited about something as an enthusiast, but I do realize that I'm in the minority.

In regards to the second paragraph I agree and disagree (at least to some extent). I agree that there were other reasons to buy the MSM besides the power (colors, it being a limited edition, etc...). However, I would think that if a similar "performance" package could be offered on the new car, it would have a decent take rate (and might help with media buz).

Just as an example (and only because I own one and know enough about recent orders to use this as an example): look at how many people bought the Z51 package on the new stingray. Allocation for the Z51 was constrained to 50% at launch and still is... and they sold every Z51 that was allocated in 14 and there was definitely a longer wait (in excess of 2-3 months additional to order at one of the largest dealers in the country) when I purchased my 15 (granted that was in the beginning of the year). Now the corvette may not be a direct analogue to the miata, but they are similar in the fact that they are both generally not purchased as primary vehicles and typically have an older audience (and I should note that the Z51 package doesn't add any power... unless you count the small amount added by the performance exhaust option which was bundled with the 15 MY Z51 cars and can be optioned on non Z51 cars too).

I think things like "performance packs," though they may have a low take rate in many cases, do add something to the brand. If the manufacturer can figure out how to make them a "great deal," even if that means not making a lot of additional profit, it can bring people (and attention) into the brand. Also, clever bundling (i.e. MSM), can help keep profits up.

You bring up some valid points.

A 100% total de-compounding coefficient is typical of most sprung masses. Note that I referenced rotating and rotating + unsprung masses, which have a larger effect than other masses. I picked these systems as a dramatic example of my point. I also made the implicit assumption that performance was at least maintained, if not improved, as that was the context of the discussion.

To your point (2) mass de-compounding can only be brought to full effect at the start of a design process. As the vehicle progresses through its development cycle the ability to change the mass is reduced. It is generally assumed that one is talking about the very start of the development cycle when talking about mass de-compounding.

I figured that you were adding a bit more because of the rotational and unsprung aspects. Thanks for the info.

Again, I'm not saying anyone isn't entitled to their opinion. I'm sure that some people would find a higher-powered Miata more fun. What I am really frustrated with is people always saying "the Miata needs to have more power" when there is a long history of success without it and without consideration for the numerous side-effects of adding more power. The Miata has so many stellar qualities that are dismissed in the light of acceleration performance that isn't absurd.

My main gripe about the car is that I feel it's underpowered for something I would want to buy new. As I said above, I agree with you that it's because I'm an enthusiast and probably do not represent the market perfectly. That doesn't change the fact that the car has many awesome qualities. Unfortunately, it would stop me from buying it new. It would not stop me from buying one second hand in a few years and slapping some FI on it (though I'm pretty sure the new skyactive engine would stop me from doing that and probably push me towards an older one).

I agree that the Miata will need to appeal to the younger generation, which is why it's styling has gotten more aggressive and it's performance numbers have improved. But soon the 60 y/os won't be buying Miatas to relive old British roadsters, they'll be buying them to relive the NA Miatas of their 20-something years. It worked for the Mustang, right? :awe:

Lol that is a good point. Also I think the new styling is on point. TBH I kinda hate the way almost all previous gen miatas look. I don't want my car to look happy! That being said, I've always given them a pass on looks because of everything else that they are.

Another thing that irks me about all of these 'desired changes' to the Miata is that they just turn the Miata into another car on the market. I want a coupe Miata! That's an FRS. I want more power! That's a 370Z. The way I see it the Miata has a unique combination of attributes that, if changed, would turn it into some other car already in the market, which I don't think would be a great call.

Agreed... at least mostly. I like the idea of a removable hard top that can be purchased at a dealer at the same time as (or after) you buy the car. I don't think they need a dedicated coupe or whatnot. Shit I don't think they need a power folding hard top. Cloth top for warm areas / times of the year. Removable hard top for those who want to drive them in colder months (sorta like a jeep).

BRZ/FRS would be a great coupe alternative.

The 370Z is a great example of power not being everything. I wouldn't consider that as an alternative to the miata / BRZ (I'm just not a fan of that car really). I do like the exhaust note though.... and I think it looks pretty good.... and at least it's cheaper now than it was a few years ago. I would definitely take a Hi-Po (N/A and still sub 200hp) version of the new miata over the 370z all day every day.

Edit: this is one of the few non-proprietary papers on mass de-compounding: http://msl.mit.edu/theses/Bjelkengren_C-thesis.pdf it is an interesting approach, but has some flaws.

Thanks for the info JCH13. I actually read that thesis about a month ago when I had a similar debate with a coworker and good friend who is also a car enthusiast (not about the miata but about weight reduction in general). Really, this is the reason I knew what you were talking about (lol). Conceptually it's pretty easy to understand; however, I imagine that it's a bitch to actually do the engineering work and realize the gains in a normal production cycle. I'm sure the modeling work that you are doing will eventually make it easier for whatever manufacturer you are working for (just thinking about all the variables makes my head hurt).

I will say that it has been fun debating you. Please don't take anything that I said as a personal attack, it surely is not. I do value your opinion and experience quite a bit.

Edit: looks like they are at least thinking about it: http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/mazda/mx-5/mazda-hints-at-faster-mx-5-48937

 

[XavierMace]

how did your BRZ die Xavier?

Engine goes into limp mode throwing a cam sensor warning. 90% of the engine has been replaced but it's still doing it. Car was brought in twice previously (first time at 2,000 miles) for the error but those times it went back to normal after pulling the battery. Now it's doing it constantly as soon as the engine warms up.

After 4 months at the dealer and 2 Subaru engineers being flown in Subaru still can't figure out what's wrong with it so they are buying it back. Paperwork on the buy back is being finalized next week. Dealer says they've got about $17k into trying to fix it. LOL.

 

[JCH13]

Thanks for the info JCH13. I actually read that thesis about a month ago when I had a similar debate with a coworker and good friend who is also a car enthusiast (not about the miata but about weight reduction in general). Really, this is the reason I knew what you were talking about (lol). Conceptually it's pretty easy to understand; however, I imagine that it's a bitch to actually do the engineering work and realize the gains in a normal production cycle. I'm sure the modeling work that you are doing will eventually make it easier for whatever manufacturer you are working for (just thinking about all the variables makes my head hurt).

I will say that it has been fun debating you. Please don't take anything that I said as a personal attack, it surely is not. I do value your opinion and experience quite a bit.

This is at the crux of why I get (admittedly) a bit defensive of auto engineers and designers - they have a really complex and challenging job that often goes grossly under-appreciated by the masses.

I hope the model gets used... and my head certainly hurts when I think of all of the variables in a vehicle that the model has to accommodate and how they interrelate. D:

I am glad that there are some users on ATG that can have a technically-sound discussion. I enjoy it as well!

 

[Wuzup101]

This is at the crux of why I get (admittedly) a bit defensive of auto engineers and designers - they have a really complex and challenging job that often goes grossly under-appreciated by the masses.

I hope the model gets used... and my head certainly hurts when I think of all of the variables in a vehicle that the model has to accommodate and how they interrelate. D:

I am glad that there are some users on ATG that can have a technically-sound discussion. I enjoy it as well!

Haha... well I appreciate it. To add one more layer, on top of all the variables that you have within one model, you also have to consider cross platform development. Any company that's going to try to sell their cars in significant volume (i.e. outside of the exotics and bespoke vehicles) needs to capitalize on any sort of platform sharing they can to reap the benefits of economies of scale. It's certainly leads to many engineering compromises being made in the quest for $.

 

[Imported]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/alread...mx-5-miata-wearing-a-full-set-of-accessories/

Brembos yes please.

 

[GTaudiophile]

After market will be strong with this one. Strongest since NA. Turbo please?!?

 

[slugg]

I keep reading about how all the people who want more power are wrong because they're such a small minority of the market, so it doesn't even matter. Let me ask some questions:

1. Do we agree that the new Miata is targeted to the younger crowd?
2. Does the current generation of Miata buyers read reviews and forums online, unlike the previous generation?
3. Have you *seen* the nonstop complaints of the car not having enough power? You can't avoid it! Every conversation/thread turns into a "needs more power" debate. Every single one.

So here are the two big questions that I'm alluding to.

4. If you were happy with the new Miata as-is and decided to buy one, would you now change your mind and not buy one if Mazda announced 175 horsepower instead of 155?
5. If you were unhappy with the new Miata as-is and decided to buy a different car, would you have considered the Miata if it had 175 horsepower instead of 155?

However you spin it, I think 155 HP is a bad move for Mazda. Sure, it may not technically need more power, but all they've done is limited the appeal of the car. Ask anyone if they would have refused to purchase their current car if it came with 20 extra horsepower. See what happens.

As far as the Mazdaspeed Miata selling too little, perhaps it has to do with the fact that they sold it too late in the car's lifecycle. Mazda should sell the desirable version of the car immediately, not 6 years later, after potential customers have defected to a competitor's offering.

Say what you want about Mustangs, but at least you can buy the one you want. If 500+ horsepower is too much for you, get the modest EcoBoost. I'm not trying to compare a Miata to a Mustang; I'm just pointing out that the first model year of the car has offerings for a wide audience.

 

[JCH13]

I keep reading about how all the people who want more power are wrong because they're such a small minority of the market, so it doesn't even matter. Let me ask some questions:

1. Do we agree that the new Miata is targeted to the younger crowd?
2. Does the current generation of Miata buyers read reviews and forums online, unlike the previous generation?
3. Have you *seen* the nonstop complaints of the car not having enough power? You can't avoid it! Every conversation/thread turns into a "needs more power" debate. Every single one.

So here are the two big questions that I'm alluding to.

4. If you were happy with the new Miata as-is and decided to buy one, would you now change your mind and not buy one if Mazda announced 175 horsepower instead of 155?
5. If you were unhappy with the new Miata as-is and decided to buy a different car, would you have considered the Miata if it had 175 horsepower instead of 155?

However you spin it, I think 155 HP is a bad move for Mazda. Sure, it may not technically need more power, but all they've done is limited the appeal of the car. Ask anyone if they would have refused to purchase their current car if it came with 20 extra horsepower. See what happens.

As far as the Mazdaspeed Miata selling too little, perhaps it has to do with the fact that they sold it too late in the car's lifecycle. Mazda should sell the desirable version of the car immediately, not 6 years later, after potential customers have defected to a competitor's offering.

Say what you want about Mustangs, but at least you can buy the one you want. If 500+ horsepower is too much for you, get the modest EcoBoost. I'm not trying to compare a Miata to a Mustang; I'm just pointing out that the first model year of the car has offerings for a wide audience.

"Younger" is most certainly relative. Do you think many people under 30 or 40 are going out and buying a new car that is ostensibly a toy?

This comes back to many people second-guessing the company that has made and marketed the most successful roadster in history. Why do you think you know better? Your point also relates to one made earlier - adding power (and thus weight) will mostly just turn the Miata into something else in the sports car segment. It has a niche that is not duplicated or competed by any other brand at the moment (at lease in the US). Why would they change that formula?

 

[pauldun170]

Any 2 seater convertible is a pretty much considered a second car and marketed to people who can afford to 2 cars in the household.

Slightly older

Miata
The Mazda Miata is targeted at two groups of buyers. The first is young professionals who drive the Miata as their primary behicle and view it as an expression of who they are. The second group is married professionals between the ages of 40 and 55, mostly men, who purchased the Miata as a reward and as a second or third vehicle.

Young women and middle aged men was how I used to hear it.

 

[slugg]

"Younger" is most certainly relative. Do you think many people under 30 or 40 are going out and buying a new car that is ostensibly a toy?

This comes back to many people second-guessing the company that has made and marketed the most successful roadster in history. Why do you think you know better? Your point also relates to one made earlier - adding power (and thus weight) will mostly just turn the Miata into something else in the sports car segment. It has a niche that is not duplicated or competed by any other brand at the moment (at lease in the US). Why would they change that formula?

The formula is over 25 years old. The formula used to live side by side with the RX-7 and RX-8. If you wanted more power, you'd buy a car with spinning triangles and stick to the Mazda family.

I'm not a fan of the generic "this is how it's always been" approach. Remember when the Earth had always been flat? What happened to that formula?

And whether or not I know better than Mazda is irrelevant. The fact is, there is a lot of buzz around this car needing more power, period. Call that an engineering failure if you want, or you could call it a public relations failure. Whatever the case may be, there is no denying that social media has a strong trend toward classifying the car as almost good, if it only had a bit more power.

 

[pauldun170]

The formula is over 25 years old. The formula used to live side by side with the RX-7 and RX-8. If you wanted more power, you'd buy a car with spinning triangles and stick to the Mazda family.

I'm not a fan of the generic "this is how it's always been" approach. Remember when the Earth had always been flat? What happened to that formula?

And whether or not I know better than Mazda is irrelevant. The fact is, there is a lot of buzz around this car needing more power, period. Call that an engineering failure if you want, or you could call it a public relations failure. Whatever the case may be, there is no denying that social media has a strong trend toward classifying the car as almost good, if it only had a bit more power.

Forum bros always say every car needs more power or that each new generation should make more power.

They won't stop until a Miata becomes Z3\Boxter\Vette competitor.
Just like people wont stop complaining about the BRZ until it reaches WRX\STI power levels.

Putting aside "buzz" what do you say if the 2016 Miata turns up faster than the previous generation due to weight savings and powertrain characteristics.
If the 2016 smokes the 2015 in every performance metric then who the hell cares about HP?

 

[Subyman]

I'm not a fan of the looks. I like the lines toward the rear of the car, but the head lights are abrasive to me. Looks like it's grimacing.

The weight is phenomenal though. Happy to see a car company tip the needle the other way on the scale.

 

[Subyman]

Engine goes into limp mode throwing a cam sensor warning. 90% of the engine has been replaced but it's still doing it. Car was brought in twice previously (first time at 2,000 miles) for the error but those times it went back to normal after pulling the battery. Now it's doing it constantly as soon as the engine warms up.

After 4 months at the dealer and 2 Subaru engineers being flown in Subaru still can't figure out what's wrong with it so they are buying it back. Paperwork on the buy back is being finalized next week. Dealer says they've got about $17k into trying to fix it. LOL.

You going to try another one or move to a different car?

 

[slugg]

Forum bros always say every car needs more power or that each new generation should make more power.

They won't stop until a Miata becomes Z3\Boxter\Vette competitor.
Just like people wont stop complaining about the BRZ until it reaches WRX\STI power levels.

Putting aside "buzz" what do you say if the 2016 Miata turns up faster than the previous generation due to weight savings and powertrain characteristics.
If the 2016 smokes the 2015 in every performance metric then who the hell cares about HP?

I say I'd be very tempted to buy it.

But I'm skeptical. Why did Mazda delay the horsepower announcement for so long? And if the car really did outperform the previous generation, then why haven't they announced it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mazda themselves have not once, ever, said that the car outperforms the previous model in any way.

There's plenty of speculation all over the place, mainly pointing to its weight savings. But again, it's just third party speculation, usually driven by click-bait website traffic. And if you look closely, you'll see that the only official statements about the weight savings apply to the 1.5 liter Japanese or European model, not the 2.0 that we're getting here in the 'states, whose differences don't stop at the motor.

Could the ND outperform the NC? Sure. But I'll believe it when I see it. In my mind, the only thing the ND has going for it at the moment is its looks.

 

[MongGrel]

http://blog.caranddriver.com/alread...mx-5-miata-wearing-a-full-set-of-accessories/

Brembos yes please.

After market will be strong with this one. Strongest since NA. Turbo please?!?

😎

 

[XavierMace]

You going to try another one or move to a different car?

Went with a used 135i instead.

 

[PeeluckyDuckee]

Plenty quick? I would say just adequately quick (I know, splitting hairs 🙂).

But put two people in the car on a warm day and see what happens when trying to accelerate for a pass on the freeway. Or even worse, doing so at any elevation much above sea level.

I think the writer of the preview did a great job of dancing around the fact that the car does not accelerate quickly. I would not expect the US engine to help the situation much.

Don't get me wrong, from what I have seen I think this is going to be a fantastic car and a ball to drive when the road gets curvy. However, anyone that nails the throttle driving in a straight line is going to notice its power limitations.

-KeithP

My previous car was one of those. When I am by myself rowing my own boat it's adequate for acceleration and merging, but when it's loaded up with a couple of passengers and cargo you'll quickly realize what it can and cannot do, and at 3100lbs it's definitely a porker to begin with.

 

[JCH13]

The formula is over 25 years old. The formula used to live side by side with the RX-7 and RX-8. If you wanted more power, you'd buy a car with spinning triangles and stick to the Mazda family.

I'm not a fan of the generic "this is how it's always been" approach. Remember when the Earth had always been flat? What happened to that formula?

And whether or not I know better than Mazda is irrelevant. The fact is, there is a lot of buzz around this car needing more power, period. Call that an engineering failure if you want, or you could call it a public relations failure. Whatever the case may be, there is no denying that social media has a strong trend toward classifying the car as almost good, if it only had a bit more power.

Hey straw man, what's up? :|

I'm not saying that a a few loudmouths haven't made a stink about the lack of power. They have, and they will. I don't give a shit what they think, no one should. Those idiots ALWAYS say "needs more power!" no matter what vehicle rolls around. Other people will perpetuate this on social media as well, for whatever reasons.

Would the Miata be more fun with more power? For some people, yes. Will it be unsuccessful without more power? I seriously doubt that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: those complaining about the lack of power in the Miata are generally part of a demographic that is very unlikely to buy it new and are not its intended market. They seem to want the Miata to be a different car (I've been over that list before in this thread). These people are idiots who don't understand the Miata's purpose.

I say I'd be very tempted to buy it.

But I'm skeptical. Why did Mazda delay the horsepower announcement for so long? And if the car really did outperform the previous generation, then why haven't they announced it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mazda themselves have not once, ever, said that the car outperforms the previous model in any way.

There's plenty of speculation all over the place, mainly pointing to its weight savings. But again, it's just third party speculation, usually driven by click-bait website traffic. And if you look closely, you'll see that the only official statements about the weight savings apply to the 1.5 liter Japanese or European model, not the 2.0 that we're getting here in the 'states, whose differences don't stop at the motor.

Could the ND outperform the NC? Sure. But I'll believe it when I see it. In my mind, the only thing the ND has going for it at the moment is its looks.

You have the right to be skeptical, but don't condemn the car before you know what the final numbers are. And being skeptical isn't an argument for or against anything, it's just you being skeptical.

 

[Midwayman]

They seem to want the Miata to be a different car (I've been over that list before in this thread). These people are idiots who don't understand the Miata's purpose.

Maybe. I want it to be more S2K though. That's what I think a miata with more power would be like.

 

[JCH13]

Maybe. I want it to be more S2K though. That's what I think a miata with more power would be like.

Honda couldn't sell enough S2Ks to justify keeping it around, so they axed it. It is very likely the same thing would happen if the Miata was just like the S2K.

The S2K is inarguably a great sports car, both on paper and in track times. A lot of people really like it, but not enough people. In 2009 it occupied the price segment just above the Miata, overlapped somewhat with the 370Z but a higher starting price than the 370Z. The Miata and 370Z are still around, but the S2K couldn't cut it. :\

 

[swilli89]

Honda couldn't sell enough S2Ks to justify keeping it around, so they axed it. It is very likely the same thing would happen if the Miata was just like the S2K.

The S2K is inarguably a great sports car, both on paper and in track times. A lot of people really like it, but not enough people. In 2009 it occupied the price segment just above the Miata, overlapped somewhat with the 370Z but a higher starting price than the 370Z. The Miata and 370Z are still around, but the S2K couldn't cut it. :\

You can buy those two cars in automatics, not the S2000. I have a feeling that had a big impact on sales. People in our society get lazier and more complacent as a function of time, and the s2000 came out at a time when that curve began to shift exponentially. They want their automatics!

 

[JCH13]

You can buy those two cars in automatics, not the S2000. I have a feeling that had a big impact on sales. People in our society get lazier and more complacent as a function of time, and the s2000 came out at a time when that curve began to shift exponentially. They want their automatics!

I can't find any figures quickly, but I bet you'd find that a small portion of these cars sold with automatic transmissions. Care to find a source?

 

[swilli89]

I can't find any figures quickly, but I bet you'd find that a small portion of these cars sold with automatic transmissions. Care to find a source?

Well first of all we would have to look at 350z numbers and not 370z but that's a minor detail. I looked and couldn't find anything but.. I know it's just anecdotal evidence which is close to meaningless, but I've seen so many automatic 350z. My ex gf used to make fun of me when I'd walk by a 350z and glance inside, notice the auto shifter and usually remark "pfft, poser" like the cool guy that I was.

 

[JCH13]

Well first of all we would have to look at 350z numbers and not 370z but that's a minor detail. I looked and couldn't find anything but.. I know it's just anecdotal evidence which is close to meaningless, but I've seen so many automatic 350z. My ex gf used to make fun of me when I'd walk by a 350z and glance inside, notice the auto shifter and usually remark "pfft, poser" like the cool guy that I was.

My only semi-solid anecdotal evidence is that automatic Miatas are pretty darn rare to come across. Perhaps 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 is an automatic.

It's a market segment dominated by manual transmissions. I doubt the lack of auto option is what did the S2k in.