13 students charged with Felony Computer trespass with school issued laptops 8-9-05

[Jeff7]

ANY IT person worth their salt should know better than to use the password they did, and have it labeled on the bottom of the laptop, duh!,

That's the part I really love about this. 1) Simple password. 2) It's written on the bottom of the damn laptop. Why didn't they just have the security software set to automatically log you in as an administrator too, auto-enter the password, etc?

So if these people were in law enforcement, would give all houses the exact same lock, and then distribute keys to everyone in the neighborhood and hope it all works out.

(3) alter or erase any computer data, computer programs or computer
software

So technically, if I install a patch that plugs a serious security hole, or update AV software, I've violated the law?


I will say, for all of this though, if they were installing monitoring software, to keep an eye on the administrators' actions, that's going rather too far.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Insidious
@dmcowen674

It seems to me that your inability understand (or at least paraphrase accurately) the posts to which you are replying is way too consistant (if not downright convenient). Is there an agenda we should know about?

-Sid

edited to change "quote" to "paraphrase"... (god help me if I create another tangental reply opportunity)

Originally posted by: RaySun2Be

I still think there were far better ways of handling this than felony charges.

Hopefully I've spared you another tangental reply opportunity, RaySun2Be summed it up quite nicely.

 

[mondobyte]

Whoosh ... boy am I getting sick ...

If I go 56 mph in a 55 mph speed zone ... am I committing a crime? ...er ... ah ... absolutely.

If I go 70 in a 55 ... am I committing a crime? Yes! If everyone else is going 80 ... er ... ah ... because they are breaking the law doesn't give me any special priveleges to break the law too?

If I go 100 in a 55 ... am I committing a crime? Yes

What if I rob $5.00 at gunpoint from the local gas mart?
What if about $10.00 ???

What if I walk into the local mart with a gun and grab $5.00 out of the cash register while the attendant is taking a bathroom break? Did or did I not commit a felony with a firearm?

Our society tends to treat laws as a matter of degree or a matter of convenience. I despise that "rationalization". If it is a violation of the law ... it is wrong.

The school did not decide on the specific charges ... the local prosecutor did! Don't hang that on the school board.

If I put a router up with external access enabled and leave the password as the manufacturer's default ... does that make it any less of a crime to for someone to access my network? I think not. A judge might suggest that I may have not have been as diligent as I should have been to keep folks out howeverhe would also find that that someone had violated my network and committed a crime -- that doesn't make that individual any less of a criminal.

Alternatively ... I drive up to the local convenience mart ... some kids are loitering outside ... I leave the car running ... and walk up to a coke machine outside and buy a coke. While my back is turned, one of the kids hops in the car and drives off. Did I make it easy for the kid? Absolutely. Did the kid commit a crime? Absolutely.

Most of the parents that I know feel that "as long as you don't get caught", breaking "minor" laws are OK. I find this attitude objectionable.

Most parents don't want to be "inconvenienced" by the children they have brought into this world. They refuse to monitor TV habits, Computer use, etc. How many minors have Televisions and Computers in the bedroom or in an unmonitored area of the house? Probably the majority.

Many parents take the attitude ... "What's the use, Little Johnny will go over to Little Jack's house and see the adult content or browse the inappropriate web sites or whatever so why should I stop it here?"

Many parents object to being "inconvenienced" when Little Johnny does something that the parents have to deal with. They didn't teach Little Johnny the lesson early enough so now it falls on the legal system to teach Little Johnny. Why shouldn't both Little Johnny and the Parents pay for this?

I have no compassion for these children that were charged. I do fault the parents for not making certain that these children did not violate the rules.

My daughter just wouldn't try these things without first coming to me and discussing it. We've dealt with some difficult topics and I haven't always found my opinions followed --- however, she has chosen NOT to break laws even when she did things that I might not have agree with. You see ... there are laws and then there are my values and her values. She can violate my values as long as she doesn't break the law and that is certainly a different matter. Even then, she understands that there are consequences and she must take responsibility for her actions even when those actions do not violate any law.

Most parents do not imbue the offspring with responsibility and that consequences to the actions of their offspring cannot be avoided just because of the failures of the parents.

No folks, I don't have any compassion for these violators nor for the parents.

 

[mondobyte]

Originally posted by: Overkiller
The students should be duly punished as they were caught and should face suspension, fines?, etc but a felony charge?? I find it problematic that something such as this is being put in the same view as say...beating someone up and sending them to the hospital. It appears that those in power, not everyone but a good %, fear anything that they do not understand technologically.

Take video downloads of tv shows. So I can tivo/or VCR record a tv show then give the tape to a friend or have friends over to watch it but I should NOT capture and rip a tv show into an encoded mpeg4 file and then say send it to the same friend in the first example....I have a problem being threatened with prosecution for something like that! Granted that was somewhat O/T...so back on topic.

who is getting whacked with the belt we talked about earlier??! The person with the lowest dC output this week

Actually, in your example, making a recording and giving it to a friend ... or anyone outside the household is a clear violation of copyright. If you TIVO or VCR the show and invite your very close friends or relatives to your house and it is a very, very small audience and you do this ONLY one or maybe two times ... that probably is within the the limits of "fair use" of he copyright but I wouldn't count on it. In the case of much of copyrighted content, even that could be construed as a violation of the copyright. Now ... if you pick your friends carefully and your relatives are on good terms ... then you can "get by with it" because no one is likely to "rat you out". What you are saying is that as long as one "can get by with violating the copyright" it is ok. I disagree with that point of view. A copyright is a law (not a parents rule). Violating the copyright is a crime. Federal, state, and local laws may make it a felony or a misdemeanor. The local prosecutor, upon a finding of fact that you have violated the copyright may or may not prosecute for the criminal penalty. If there is sufficient proof, a Judge will pass sentence and we all hope that the sentence fits the crime but frequently it does not. The copyright holder is entitled to collect civil damages based on a "preponderance of the evidence". Again, a judge or jury may establish the amount of those damages.

I guess what I am saying is ... complain once justice has run it's course but the folks in the chain ... the judge, the police, the prosecutor, the school board ... are all performing the roles that they are legally obligated to perform.

Let us not use the "court of public opinion" to usurp the process that we all agreed to long ago.

[edit]"Popular" opinions are not a reason or excuse for criminal activities. Just because I know how to do a thing does not mean that I should do a thing. In Saint Louis, I doubt that many people drive at or below the speed limit on the Interstates in and around the city. In fact, most folks drive 5 to 25 miles over the speed limit It is still a violation of the law. Because it is rarely enforced does not make it legal, right, acceptable, or just. [/edit]

 

[RaySun2Be]

The school did not decide on the specific charges ... the local prosecutor did! Don't hang that on the school board.

True, but it never should have gone that far. They did violate school policy, but that isn't law, so no true crime was committed from a legal standpoint, and is expected to be dealt with internally within the school. Take the laptops away, expel them are the normal expected results. To go from detentions straight to prosecution is a bit much.

f I put a router up with external access enabled and leave the password as the manufacturer's default ... does that make it any less of a crime to for someone to access my network?

Probably not, but if you post that admin password in 600 public places, is it a crime then?

Policy does not equal law. And it would depend on which state you are in, and their computer laws.

However, most are written so vague as they can make just about anything apply if they want to.

For PA, Take #3. The way I read it, if you walk by a dorm roomate's computer when the aren't around, and as a joke you erase their browser cookies, or set a funny pic as their background you have just committed a felony. That's the only one I see applying in this case.

But again, it NEVER should have gone this far. The IT and school Admins were so hellbent on proving this program works, they refused to take back laptops, and refused to take away laptops, or even threaten expulsion. It went from detentions to felony charges. Had the IT and school admins dealt swiftly and appropriately to the growing problem, it never would have gotten this far.


And don't give me that crap about low paying IT jobs. I don't care how much you make (I work for a non-profit, and make 60% less than my corporate conterparts). As the IT admin, it is your JOB to know about security, network access, etc. You are in charge of it, learn it.

My god, standard and best practices of security and passwords have been out for a decade at least. Surely they are teaching it now as part of standard curriculum. When one would be setting up a new program like this, and issues concerning the security of the network has been discussed, you would do the research to figure out how best to do it. I know I would. Do a google search on strong password, and see what you get.

How many of is IT folks would have been severely reprimanded at best, and probably lost our jobs, if we had taped the admin passsword to the bottom of 600 laptops, and used one so simple an elementary kid could figure it out?

Doesn't negate the fact that the kids violated school policy and should have to face appropriate consequences, including expulsion. As I stated before, it never should have gotten this far, but the kids are now facing felony charges due to the incompetency of the IT and school admins. Sad, really.

 

[Crazee]

Originally posted by: RaySun2Be

The school did not decide on the specific charges ... the local prosecutor did! Don't hang that on the school board.

True, but it never should have gone that far. They did violate school policy, but that isn't law, so no true crime was committed from a legal standpoint, and is expected to be dealt with internally within the school. Take the laptops away, expel them are the normal expected results. To go from detentions straight to prosecution is a bit much.

They did violate the law from any standpoint. They altered programs to do other than what their intended use. Despite what you may think of the law that is a violation. The school district could sue in civil court as well to recover the cost of man hours they lost when students used password crackers and changed the intent of installed programs. Those are two things they admit to on their own website.

f I put a router up with external access enabled and leave the password as the manufacturer's default ... does that make it any less of a crime to for someone to access my network?

Probably not, but if you post that admin password in 600 public places, is it a crime then?

Yes it is still a crime but the prosecutor would certainly not take the case since it would be contributory negligence. In this case much more went on after the machines were reimaged and the passwords changed.

Policy does not equal law. And it would depend on which state you are in, and their computer laws.

However, most are written so vague as they can make just about anything apply if they want to.

For PA, Take #3. The way I read it, if you walk by a dorm roomate's computer when the aren't around, and as a joke you erase their browser cookies, or set a funny pic as their background you have just committed a felony. That's the only one I see applying in this case.

Again no matter what you might think of the law, that is the law. If the people of Penn don't like it they need to let their representatives know that it needs to change.

But again, it NEVER should have gone this far. The IT and school Admins were so hellbent on proving this program works, they refused to take back laptops, and refused to take away laptops, or even threaten expulsion. It went from detentions to felony charges. Had the IT and school admins dealt swiftly and appropriately to the growing problem, it never would have gotten this far.

How do you know they didn't deal with it swiftly and appropriately? By the students own admission they were reprimanded and suspended. We haven't even heard the other side of the case. It did not go from detentions to felony it went from suspensions to felony and that is posted on the student's site. We still don't know from the district every disciplinary action they took.

As for the laptops being turn in, if the curriculum changed to where the lesson had to be delivered via a computer, then how can they take away the computer? Also if the school district is partially culpable for supplying them with the initial passwords why are the parents also culpable for not preventing their children from doing it again and again when they have been given detention and suspended?

And don't give me that crap about low paying IT jobs. I don't care how much you make (I work for a non-profit, and make 60% less than my corporate conterparts). As the IT admin, it is your JOB to know about security, network access, etc. You are in charge of it, learn it.

My god, standard and best practices of security and passwords have been out for a decade at least. Surely they are teaching it now as part of standard curriculum. When one would be setting up a new program like this, and issues concerning the security of the network has been discussed, you would do the research to figure out how best to do it. I know I would. Do a google search on strong password, and see what you get.

How many of is IT folks would have been severely reprimanded at best, and probably lost our jobs, if we had taped the admin passsword to the bottom of 600 laptops, and used one so simple an elementary kid could figure it out?

Again, states legislate not only what these people make, but how many of them a school can have. At 60% of corporate, you are still making more than people in most school districts do in the state of Texas. I can't speak to other states because I haven't looked into their stats. I can tell you that in the school districts I work with they would be happy to make 60% of what I make and I don't even work in corporate I work for a college.

These people are overworked, underpaid and usually are the guy who is handiest with a screwdriver that they moved from teaching to IT because they can't get anyone from the outside to take the job. A lot of them try to keep up, but because their limited knowledge in starting with the job and the limited staff they have they have to put in lots of hours just to keep up with what they are doing.

The company you work for is lucky to have you. They found someone with experience and knowledge to work with them for less than you would make in the corporate world. In schools, these people are career educators who have been moved into IT because they knew more than the teacher next to them. They don't have the experience and they don't have the knowledge and yes they can try to attain but when they do, they will leave the school for a much better paying job.

Also who is to say that the IT people at this district aren't going to lose their jobs. Maybe the school board is launching an investigation as we speak. We don't know yet because the fallout from this case is definitely not over yet.

Doesn't negate the fact that the kids violated school policy and should have to face appropriate consequences, including expulsion. As I stated before, it never should have gotten this far, but the kids are now facing felony charges due to the incompetency of the IT and school admins. Sad, really.

The kids are facing felony charges because they didn't know when to stop. I can guarantee you that if this were just a case of the students learning the password and installing some harmless programs as a result, then any competent prosecutor would have not taken the case. They would have said that contributory negligence would not make the case worth pursuing.

The students used password crackers after the passwords were changed. They altered the use of a remote administration program to spy on the administration. They were reprimanded and suspended yet they continued. This is all on their own website

 

[Crazee]

Originally posted by: mondobyte
I guess what I am saying is ... complain once justice has run it's course but the folks in the chain ... the judge, the police, the prosecutor, the school board ... are all performing the roles that they are legally obligated to perform.

Let us not use the "court of public opinion" to usurp the process that we all agreed to long ago.

[edit]"Popular" opinions are not a reason or excuse for criminal activities. Just because I know how to do a thing does not mean that I should do a thing. In Saint Louis, I doubt that many people drive at or below the speed limit on the Interstates in and around the city. In fact, most folks drive 5 to 25 miles over the speed limit It is still a violation of the law. Because it is rarely enforced does not make it legal, right, acceptable, or just. [/edit]

Couldn't agree more :thumbsup:

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Crazee

Originally posted by: mondobyte
I guess what I am saying is ... complain once justice has run it's course but the folks in the chain ... the judge, the police, the prosecutor, the school board ... are all performing the roles that they are legally obligated to perform.

Let us not use the "court of public opinion" to usurp the process that we all agreed to long ago.

[edit]"Popular" opinions are not a reason or excuse for criminal activities. Just because I know how to do a thing does not mean that I should do a thing. In Saint Louis, I doubt that many people drive at or below the speed limit on the Interstates in and around the city. In fact, most folks drive 5 to 25 miles over the speed limit It is still a violation of the law. Because it is rarely enforced does not make it legal, right, acceptable, or just. [/edit]

Couldn't agree more :thumbsup:

This driving analogy keeps coming up.

Are folks charge with a Felony for driving 5-25 miles over the speed limit now???

They might be, I haven't gotten a speeding ticket since around 1998.

 

[Crazee]

That analogy doesn't work because speeding 5-25 over isn't a felony of any class. What they did was by law a class 3 felony in the state of Pennsylvania.

Just like your murder and rape analogy doesn't work because that is a class 1 felony and what they did is a class 3 felony. Also the sentences don't match up.

And yes they are still not felons because they haven't been convicted of a felony. And they aren't being treated as felons because they aren't serving time in jail right now.

Let the system work and then criticize it if you don't agree. The outcome of the case could be that the charges get dropped and the school has to pay everyone's attorney fees. None of us know all the facts.

A better analogy would be you telling me a movie you hadn't seen sucks because you read a review from someone who saw half the movie and he thought it sucked.

You only have half the story, the outcome hasn't happened yet and still you are criticizing the system when it isn't over and you don't know all the facts.

 

[mondobyte]

The point that I was trying to make with the speeding example is that if you go before a judge in Missouri - Speeding is Speeding. 1MPH over the speed limit is speeding. When one exceeds the speed limit by at least 20-25 MPH one does get "bonus" charges and it is very likely to become a felony, particularly if one has a record of prior traffic violations. (Prior conviction of moving violations constitutes the "warning) however, it is still speeding.

These folks had clear warning. They chose to ignore those warnings and continue.

If I do not agree with a law I have two responsibilities.

1. Lobby my legislators to change the law if I believe it to be incorrect, unjust, etc.
2. Obey the law until such time as it may be changed.

Any other choice simply means that I must be prepared to be held accountable for my actions based on the current status of the law and accept any penalties that may arise out of such a choice. It is very, very simple.

 

[RaySun2Be]

Heh, we can argue this back and forth ad-nausium. Especially since none of us have few of the the true facts in this case and are thus basing our opinions on statements that cannot be validated as true or not.

We all will have to just let things play out and see what happens.

Crazee, you make excuses for the IT admin, and I'll make excuses for the kids.



There are no excuses for the parents, seems like many ingored the problem assuming the school would handle it. I certainly would have been involved heavily with my kid after finding out about it. Assuming the school kept them informed about the detentions, etc. If, like some parents claim, they weren't notified, then that changes things. No facts to support either case, just unvalidated statements.

It could very well be that these 13 out of the 150+ are the only ones who took things further than using the password to gain access to the Internet and installed the chat program, used a hack program to get the new password and try to hack into the network, and spy on the admins. (I did read somewhere that a few tried to get into the network). Those are definitely criminal acts and should be punished.

It could also very well be that these 13 didn't do those things at all, but for personl/political reasons were selected to be scapegoats.

We may never know the real truth.

And there is a big difference between getting charged and convicted. I personally was involved in a situation where I was charged with a certain violation that clearly didn't fit the circumstances. Right before they called my name in court, the prosecutor changed the charge. I asked for and recieved a continuance. Upon further review, that charge didn't fit either. But it wasn't until I went in front of the judge again, with witnesses, and the judge heard everything, that it was thrown out, and charges dismissed.

So just because they have been charged, doesn't even mean they actually did anything to fit the charges. That's only an assumption on your part that they only charge in cases they think they have solid proof. That's just not always the case, and innocent people have been known to get convicted.

I still believe it never should have gotten this far. And that ALL parties involved are responsible.

1. The IT Director and school admins publically promised parents that the program would be secure. They failed miserably on that, but so far it appears they haven't taken ownership of that failure.
2. The kids promised that they would abide by the school's policies on acceptable use. They failed miserably on that. They seem to have taken ownership of that, but don't want to suffer the current consequences (however unjust or extreme IMO)
3. The parents, probably were informed of the policies and were expected to help in seeing the kids followed those policies. And it appears that they failed miserably in teaching their kids right from wrong, to follow the policies, and failed in helping the school administer the policies, abdicating all responsibility to the school, and are crying foul now that felony charges are involved.

David and I have been arguing for the kids side, Crazee, Mondobyte and others are siding with the IT and school admins. Anyone want to argue for the parents? ........Anyone?

 

[Crazee]

Again I think we agree more than we disagree.

I didn't say that the IT admins shouldn't be punished and I am pretty sure at some point they will be. As I said in another post it wouldn't surprise me if the school district wasn't performing an internal investigation.

My main arguement in this thread was let the process work. Just because they were accused doesn't mean they will be convicted. A lot of people felt they shouldn't be charged. My points were that they did enough to be charged (again doesn't mean they will be convicted) and that we haven't heard the prosecution's side yet.

If i seems that I was making excuses for the IT admins in this case then let me clarify my position. At no time did I suggest they shouldn't be fired. Putting the password on the machine no matter how bad your training and skills are is worthy of disciplinary action possibly including termination. I merely was trying to point out how school districts are handcuffed by state regulations determining pay and staffing levels. I wasn't making an excuse for the admins, more for the school district itself. The IT administration in this case should receive some sort of reprimand for making the passwords exposed.

But I also wanted to point out that the kids went much further than loading chat programs from the password they learned posted on the machines. After the password was changed they downloaded crackers and got the new passwords. They also altered the remote assistance program to spy on administration. Those two incidents go beyond what the IT admins contributed to by taping the password on the machines.

I think that what you stated in the thread above is very similar to what I have been saying throughout the thread. Let the system work.

I also agree with you that it shouldn't have gotten this far, but I hang most of that on the parents. They should have held their children accountable when they were reprimanded. I like you would love to see someone argue their side because I can't imagine how anyone could.

 

[RaySun2Be]

Again I think we agree more than we disagree.

Can't argue with that.

Some more interesting reading, this time from the School side of things.

KASD Press Release
According to this, the parents and kids were all well aware of the AUD, and even had to sign off on it. Also implies that criminal charges were one of the consequences spelled out in the AUD. Hmmm......

From the KASD One to One FAQs:
Will students be able to install software on the laptop?
No, students installing software on school owned computers is a direct violation of the KASD Computer Policy. Students who violate the policy will be disciplined. All of the software necessary to integrate the laptop technology into the curriculum will be installed when the laptop is issued to the student. Security monitoring software will be used on all of the computers to assure that software is not loaded on the laptops. See the ?Software? webpage in regards to the software installed on each laptop.

Will students be able to email, chat, and play games on their laptops?
Chat, IM, games, and email software will be removed from all computers. Student use of email, chatting, IM, and game playing is a direct violation of the KASD computer policy. Students who violate the computer policy will be disciplined.

And an interesting "case study"
Macromedia Kutztown Case Study
Yeah, they learned "digital skills" alright. just not the ones people thought they would! :Q

Wished I could get hold of that Acceptable Use Policy. Accepting the Press Release at face value (again, few verifiable facts, just their statements), and assuming the 13 are the most persistant violators of the policy, I would have to say they've probably earned the charges.

Dang it, as much fun as I've had siding with the kids, their case is getting weaker and weaker.

 

[Slahr Dzhe]

Hi guys! Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents here.

A minor generally cannot form an enforceable contract. A contract entered into by a minor may be canceled by the minor or by his or her guardian. After reaching the age of majority (18 in most states), a person still has a reasonable period of time to cancel a contract entered into as a minor. If, however, he or she does not cancel the contract within a reasonable period of time, the contract will be considered ratified, making it binding and enforceable.

23 Pa. Cons. Stat. Ann. § 5101 (persons over age 18 can enter into binding contracts)

I haven't looked at all the information about this case, but they are minors, and cannot enter a legally binding contract under state law. Their parents or guardians, however, can enter into such a contract, and should be held responsible if they signed such a contract.

Now, there are some tricky bits about this case that are glaringly obvious to me. They did not "hack" into the computers to begin with. They were essentially given the key by means of it being on the device itself. If the students then circumvented the new security on the devices after being punished for their initial breach of policy, they are 100% guilty, and should be punished.

That said, I do not believe they should be punished in a court of law. I think the school administration should assign appropriate punishment and community service. I also think the parents need to take responsibility for the upbringing of their children. I am disgusted with the latest generation of parents and their lack of interest in the rearing of their offspring.. but I digress.

PS- /me waves to all my old friends

 

[dmcowen674]

Here is a REAL Felony Computer crime criminal:

8-14-2005 Edison teen gets 5 years for attacks on Web sites

MIDDLESEX COUNTY ? A 17-year-old Edison boy has been sentenced to five years in prison for causing online attacks on commercial Web sites that authorities say cost the victims more than $1.5 million.

According to the attorney general's office, Singh generated a series of attacks by compromising computers all over the world with a virus and then directing the infected computers to send the victim's company trillions of packets of data every hour.

Singh was originally charged in juvenile court with two first-degree charges of computer theft, which carry a maximum sentence of 20 years each. After his case was waived up to adult court, the charges were reduced to second-degree offenses that carry a maximum penalty of 10 years.

 

[Crazee]

Yeah that is a real felony he was charged and convicted. The whole process played out.

We won't know if this is a real felony until after the process has played out in this case.

 

[dmcowen674]

Breaking News:

These kids are basically getting same "Face Saving" deal by Prosecutors as Dave.

8-26-2005 'Kutztown 13' Hackers Quietly Offered Deal

The case against the "Kutztown 13" ? a group of Pennsylvania high school students charged with felonies for tinkering with their school-issued laptop computers ? seems to be ending mostly with a whimper.

In meetings with students over the last several days, the Berks County juvenile probation office has quietly offered the students a deal in which all charges would be dropped in exchange for 15 hours of community service, a letter of apology, a class on personal responsibility and a few months of probation.

"The probation department realizes this is small potatoes," said William Bispels, an attorney representing nearly half the accused students.

Mike Boland, who represents one student, said his client will likely accept the offer. "It doesn't require my client to acknowledge he is guilty of anything," he said.

"It's about as mild as you can go," agreed James Shrawder, whose 15-year-old nephew was among those offered the deal. "It's more of a face-saving measure."

 

[petrusbroder]

Ok, parhaps the punishment now fits the crime better, doesn't it ...

But: Why did each student get 600 Apple iBook laptop computers? Isn't one enough? :

The trouble began last fall after the school district issued some 600 Apple iBook laptops to every student at the high school, about 50 miles northwest of Philadelphia.

What's in for Apple? For the school? Was this a scheme to get rid of a large supply of iBooks? Or did the school have a course in business managment and the the student who sells the most iBooks and earns most gets the best grade. Does he then keep the money or does the school get them?

Edit: spelling and last paragraph.

 

[RaySun2Be]

Originally posted by: petrusbroder
Ok, parhaps the punishment now fits the crime better, doesn't it ...

But: Why did each student get 600 Apple iBook laptop computers? Isn't one enough? :

The trouble began last fall after the school district issued some 600 Apple iBook laptops to every student at the high school, about 50 miles northwest of Philadelphia.

ROLF!

Glad to hear they got this resolved. 15 hours of community time sounds reasonable.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: RaySun2Be

Originally posted by: petrusbroder
Ok, parhaps the punishment now fits the crime better, doesn't it ...

But: Why did each student get 600 Apple iBook laptop computers? Isn't one enough? :

The trouble began last fall after the school district issued some 600 Apple iBook laptops to every student at the high school, about 50 miles northwest of Philadelphia.

ROLF!

Glad to hear they got this resolved. 15 hours of community time sounds reasonable.

BFT

Those calling for these kids to be labeled as "FELONS" should be a shamed of themselves.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Insidious
(better late than never)

While I think the idea of felony charges is outrageous, I am among those who believe the kids need a 'slam dunk'.

I am so sick of people not taking responsibility for their own stupidity and yes.. malicious behaviors.

This was no innocent prank and people should stop making excuses for them. They signed an agreement, broke it and that makes them delinquents in my book. They should be treated as such.

-Sid

Children signing a somehow legally binding contract? Last time I checked credit cards are not issued out to minors due to the fact they would probably abuse the system...

Kids bend the rules. No serious malicious activity occured. Take away the offenders computers, hand out some detention and move on.

Pay more attention to the kids walking into the school with guns behind you, please.

 

[mondobyte]

This has been an eye-openner for me ...

I am, indeed, a network administrator for several schools.

I will do the AUP correctly and have the students AND parents sign it ...

I will stand behind administration efforts to keep the network up and running ...

I hope that the superintendents of the schools involved will press charges for egregious student behaviour.

These students got off cheap ... hope they realize how cheap.

I DO agree with felony charges against minors when they scoff at the rules and attempt to beat me. I follow best practices but in spite of that, if a student bests me ... that clearly signals contempt and intent.

These students should treasure the windfall and clean up the actions ....

And -- I would never consider taping the administrator password to any computer ...

 

[Wiz]

I follow best practices but in spite of that, if a student bests me ... that clearly signals contempt and intent.

Nothing personal, I am sure you are competent Mondobyte - however your reasoning seems a little flawed.

Speaking in general, not specifically about this particular case
It's entirely possible that an admin's own incompetence may lead eager young minds to wander. Think of it as a kind of inept entrapment. If you do your job right then many of those youths would not be tempted to do wrong.

Something like putting (or leaving) the password on the bottom of the laptop seems to be an open invitation, whoever is responsible for that should be jobless and be forced to list this case on his resume IMHO. Natural Selection should be enforced brutally in his or her case.

 

[ssvegeta1010]

Originally posted by: Gonnagetu
Gee I told my kids a long time ago that they should not eat snack food before dinner. There is a box of Oreos in the cookie jar, been there for the last couple days. Not one of my 3 kids has eaten one before dinner. One talks about them. But doesn?t eat them. It is the attitude of parents and people that think like you, that set there kids up for failure. Not the tasks they are put to. My oldest loves to swim. He has a set of duties that he must do every day. He does them before he swims. He could swim a little and then do them, and most times no one would ever be the wiser. But he knows the right thing is to do the work first, then swim. My guns are in my office. None of my kids have ever shot anyone. Yet they know where they are. My middle son finishes his homework before watching TV or playing, with out being told he has to.
The "Don't expect to much and you won?t be disappointed" attitude toward kids today is the reason kids that don?t listen or follow rules. And having people like you and the parent that used that analogy, to look up to. Kids have a very bleak future ahead of them.

Im sorry to revive this discussion after the resloution came, but Id like to say something about this quote. That is, you are losing information about what your kids are doing somewhere along the line. I am a 14 year old, and I would say, a good kid, but I have NEVER met anyone who would adhere completely to that set of rules. About not eating the Oreos, well thats fine, and I could see someone doing that, but I am sure that your kids are not finishing all of their homework before TV (unless they are under grade 7). I get my homework all done, but there is no way that I would not watch some TV first, or during homework. (Especially with the insane amount that are given to us) Your kids are probably finishing their homework at school, or skipping out on it altogether. (You'd be suprosed how little it may affect your grade.) I do follow my parents rules, but my parents are much more sensible than you, and they see no harm in taking breaks, as long as the task gets done.

I say, get more information about your kids,, then maybe you can make the same post, but I bet it'll open your eyes.

Also, let me change your cookie anlogy to fit the case. You have cookies in the cookie jar. They may not eat them before dinner. They disobey you, and eat them, but instead of punishing them and simply moving the cookies, you leave them in the same place, and give the kids a warning. Clearly, the kids didn't understand it the first time, and nothing will stop them from doing it again. but when they do it again, should you charge them with a crime? No, you keep the punishment in your system, and make it fit the rule broken (i.e. no dessert for 1week/2 weeks/a month).

He could swim a little and then do them, and most times no one would ever be the wiser.

Prove that hes not doing exactly that, then check back.


Im sorry about the coverup resolution, but at least the ending punishment wasn't too drastic.

 

[Wiz]

I'm raising 6 of my own children right now.
They range in age between 5 up to one who is almost 17.

My feeling is that I am charged with (among other things) eventually producing a set of adults who take responsiblility for themselves and who use their talents and gifts to the best of their abilities.

Some people feel that good adults are made from children by forcing them to follow strict rules and regulations. That is their choice as parents, I would never tell parents how to raise their children, as I expect no one else would want to tell me the same.

Each of my children is a unique individual. None of them act exactly like any of their siblings, because they truly are each different and they each have their own set of talents, gifts, abilities and disabilities.

I feel a major part of my job in parenting is to recognize those things, encourage the gifts, talents and abilities and help them find ways of coping with or improving on their disabilities. This takes a lot more effort than some other ways of parenting, but I am sure that the way I am doing it is best - for my children. Not necessarily for any one elses children, but for mine. That's the best I can do, and they deserve no less.

Don't get me wrong, they have chores that get done and they must work educationally.

They must also BE children, chase the dog, play with their friends on a summer day, paint with watercolors, learn to swim, get odd jobs to buy their teen friends a bunch of pizzas, go out to movies, go on dates, learn to drive, etc etc etc...

Yes, I am an enabler. In this case that's not a bad thing.