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12 story apartment building suddenly collapses in Miami

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As this tragedy left the daily news cycle a while ago, the following story didn't seem to get much circulation 2 weeks ago:
www.cnn.com

Report warned parts of Surfside condo had zero remaining years of useful life | CNN

An independent budget review warned the Champlain Towers South condo association that its financial reserves were critically underfunded in the face of urgently needed structural repairs a little over a year before the building collapsed, a document obtained by CNN shows. CNN's Leyla Santiago...
www.cnn.com www.cnn.com

The early 2020 budget report seemed to have spurred the condo board to finally take the problems seriously, but it was still a slow walk to lining up financing and then beginning the repairs. As they say, too little, too late.
 
Greenman said:
How long is a structure supposed to stand without any maintenance? Clearly it had some integrity because it survived for 40 years and through several hurricanes. Are the designers and builders on the hook for eternity?
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Overall I agree, only thing that would change my mind is if it’s proven sub standard concrete or steel or whatever big structural thing was either used or installed/built in such a non standard or irresponsible manner it can’t be ignored.
But yeah without reading much this appears to be a lack of proper maintenance thing with maybe a little shoddy construction.
Also if someone builds something shitty and you know it PLUS do nothing about it at some point it becomes your problem.
 
I suspect when all the lawsuits and investigations are over, the most significant single cause will be substandard building practices regarding the geotechnical design, with regards to building on a fill.
The columns themselves did not settle, ( they are augured down to bearing material below the fill) but that first slab in contact with the earth was most likely undermined over the years by the very nature of a fill area. Once that slab failed it then left the bases of the columns unsupported laterally.
Those columns must be supported laterally to resist buckling forces.

All of that above is clearly out of the realm of maintenance.
 
In all the lawsuits who are the defendants? HOAs are comprised of the tenants. Who pays in these cases? Tenants can't get money from themselves.
 
HomerJS said:
In all the lawsuits who are the defendants? HOAs are comprised of the tenants. Who pays in these cases? Tenants can't get money from themselves.
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There is going to be an insurance plan plus I doubt any are going to want to live on the same land run by the same condo association. The land could be sold.
 
HomerJS said:
In all the lawsuits who are the defendants? HOAs are comprised of the tenants. Who pays in these cases? Tenants can't get money from themselves.
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They will sue anyone tangentially associated with inspecting and making recommendations about the building as well. I'm sure a major line of attack will be that the urgency was not appropriately communicated to the HOA or that the inspections were negligent and missed critical faults that should have been identified.
 
Fanatical Meat said:
There is going to be an insurance plan plus I doubt any are going to want to live on the same land run by the same condo association. The land could be sold.
Click to expand...
The survivors are fighting each other tooth and nail over what to do. Some are demanding it be rebuilt as soon as possible so they can move back in. Others want a park or memorial on the site.
 
woolfe9998 said:
Sounds like there were defects in the original design.
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The contractors also didn't adhere strictly to the original design plans. Usually in these types of catastrophic disasters, it'll be a chain of failures and the NYT points out the evidence so far. It doesn't make any firm conclusions, which is what NIST is working on and will take a long time.

If Twitter doesn't allow you to read the article, I can gift the interactive article here and I think everyone can access it freely. The Twitter thread captured a fair portion.

 
manly said:
The contractors also didn't adhere strictly to the original design plans. Usually in these types of catastrophic disasters, it'll be a chain of failures and the NYT points out the evidence so far. It doesn't make any firm conclusions, which is what NIST is working on and will take a long time.

If Twitter doesn't allow you to read the article, I can gift the interactive article here and I think everyone can access it freely. The Twitter thread captured a fair portion.

Click to expand...
Yeah, I think the drainage issue was on the construction contractor.

I've read that it also looks like there is less rebar than called for in the plans. Usually when rebar is missing, it was missed by inspections from the city and designers. Pretty rare for them to pull RE after inspection.
 
Sounding like such a complicted multi-causal disaster at this point. Maybe a bit cold of me to think of it this way, but I'm intellectually really intrigued now as to what the explanation will turn out to be. Hopefully the investigation will be thorough?

Sounds quite similar to the Grenfell disaster, in how many different things may have contributed to it.
 
pmv said:
Sounding like such a complicted multi-causal disaster at this point. Maybe a bit cold of me to think of it this way, but I'm intellectually really intrigued now as to what the explanation will turn out to be. Hopefully the investigation will be thorough?

Sounds quite similar to the Grenfell disaster, in how many different things may have contributed to it.
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Saw a story on NBC network news last night about the Surfside collapse . They interviewed 3 female survivors. I think mother and two daughters. They barely made it out alive. The father didn't. Their condo was on the 9th floor and they fell 5 levels to the 4th floor and survived. They showed really bad scaring on one of the girl's legs where they repaired a broken femur. The interview was very emotional and unusual. The distraught mother explained that you just don't expect your building to collapse. She said she was just screaming "run, run, run!!!" One of the girls just said that she couldn't begin to explain what it was like. The PTSD was just monumental.
 
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woolfe9998 said:
Sounds like there were defects in the original design.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt there were defects but I'm not sure how much the original engineer and contractor can be blamed for this. A building that is 40 years old just doesn't collapse suddenly because the original design was faulty.

My guess is the primary cause of collapse is modifications/alterations plus ignoring the warning signs. It seems like the structure exhibited plenty evidence of distress or issues but those problems were minimized or neglected.

Regardless, anyone that has liability insurance that had anything to do with this building is about to get sucked into the mess.
 
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I'll gift the NYT interactive article here in case you want to get past the paywall:

www.nytimes.com

The Surfside Condo Was Flawed and Failing. Here’s a Look Inside. (Published 2021)

A Times investigation shows how faulty design and construction could have contributed to the collapse of the building in South Florida.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Muse said:
Saw a story on NBC network news last night about the Surfside collapse . They interviewed 3 female survivors. I think mother and two daughters. They barely made it out alive. The father didn't. Their condo was on the 9th floor and they fell 5 levels to the 4th floor and survived. They showed really bad scaring on one of the girl's legs where they repaired a broken femur. The interview was very emotional and unusual. The distraught mother explained that you just don't expect your building to collapse. She said she was just screaming "run, run, run!!!" One of the girls just said that she couldn't begin to explain what it was like. The PTSD was just monumental.
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Wait, there were actual survivors besides a teenage boy?!
 
manly said:
I'll gift the NYT interactive article here in case you want to get past the paywall:

www.nytimes.com

The Surfside Condo Was Flawed and Failing. Here’s a Look Inside. (Published 2021)

A Times investigation shows how faulty design and construction could have contributed to the collapse of the building in South Florida.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com


Wait, there were actual survivors besides a teenage boy?!
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I don't think they were found in the debris but I believe some were in the collapse and managed to get out of the rubble themselves.
I am not positive about this so someone correct me if I am wrong.
 
BlueWeasel said:
I don't doubt there were defects but I'm not sure how much the original engineer and contractor can be blamed for this. A building that is 40 years old just doesn't collapse suddenly because the original design was faulty.

My guess is the primary cause of collapse is modifications/alterations plus ignoring the warning signs. It seems like the structure exhibited plenty evidence of distress or issues but those problems were minimized or neglected.

Regardless, anyone that has liability insurance that had anything to do with this building is about to get sucked into the mess.
Click to expand...
i posted a video in the OT thread. the yt channel covers the collapse and did a full structural analysis. there was a revision of the original plans concerning the garage and a transition was removed for esthetic reasons, but they also removed some beams that were under the planter tubs for the above landscaping (trees and bushes). the live/dynamic loads from cars driving over wasnt accounted for so a bunch of supports were already at max loading.

whoever did the revision is absolutely liable.
gorobei said:
i came across this channel a few weeks ago. they cover the collapse and the engineering issues over a dozen videos or so. they pulled the filed plans and did a structural engineering review. he seems to have zeroed in on a key issue with the 'as built'. (tldr: some column/sections were at 100% load, live load wasnt addressed, beams under planters were removed.) beware highly technical.
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gorobei said:
i posted a video in the OT thread. the yt channel covers the collapse and did a full structural analysis. there was a revision of the original plans concerning the garage and a transition was removed for esthetic reasons, but they also removed some beams that were under the planter tubs for the above landscaping (trees and bushes). the live/dynamic loads from cars driving over wasnt accounted for so a bunch of supports were already at max loading.

whoever did the revision is absolutely liable.
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I don't know the full history of the building.

The original engineer is only responsible for the loading conditions and building code at the time of design. If the loads (dead, live, etc.) were underestimated or the revisions during construction affected the structural integrity, then yes, he is liable.

The point is structural engineers can't be responsible for changes/modifications/additions by others after the fact if the loading condition is drastically different as long as the original design met the load requirements of the applicable building code in effect at the time.

[EDIT] The video was excellent. I don't disagree with any of his analysis but I'm not sure all the fault lies with the original designers.
 
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BlueWeasel said:
I don't know the full history of the building.

The original engineer is only responsible for the loading conditions and building code at the time of design. If the loads (dead, live, etc.) were underestimated or the revisions during construction affected the structural integrity, then yes, he is liable.

The point is structural engineers can't be responsible for changes/modifications/additions by others after the fact if the loading condition is drastically different as long as the original design met the load requirements of the applicable building code in effect at the time.

[EDIT] The video was excellent. I don't disagree with any of his analysis but I'm not sure all the fault lies with the original designers.
Click to expand...
there are always going to be more contributing factors to the failure of the building(maintenance, inspector review, weather, building materials used, etc) but if it started out with 100% loads and then someone removed the beams from the as-built, all those other factors are going to pale in comparison when it comes to the jury.
the real question is whether the sister building also has the beams removed.
 
An interesting twist:

The construction of a new luxury condo tower just feet away from Champlain Towers South caused severe damage to the fragile, poorly designed building in Surfside, eventually leading to the collapse that killed nearly 100 people, according to a civil complaint filed late Tuesday in a class-action case.

The 169-page complaint — filed in Miami-Dade Circuit Court on behalf of victims, survivors and their families — alleges that the development team at Eighty Seven Park ignored clear warning signs that its work posed a danger to the 12-story Champlain Towers South and failed to follow industry standards, presenting photographs, emails, internal documents and building plans to buttress its case. The construction took place between 2016 and 2019, several years before the collapse.

“CTS was an older building in need of routine repairs and maintenance, but it was not until excavation and construction began on the luxury high-rise condominium project next door … that CTS became so badly damaged and destabilized as to be unsafe,” the complaint alleges.

 
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