12 people dead, 25 wounded in England shooting spree

[zsdersw]

Violence, with a gun or otherwise, ebbs and flows in a pattern conditioned upon many factors including the economy, level of drug use, local law enforcement presence, local socioeconomic statistics, and general mood.

Gun ownership is neither a cause of, nor solution to, violence of any kind.

 

[zsdersw]

I will say, though, the OP could've avoided another ad nauseum gun debate by picking different commentary to offer.

 

[nick1985]

Violence, with a gun or otherwise, ebbs and flows in a pattern conditioned upon many factors including the economy, level of drug use, local law enforcement presence, local socioeconomic statistics, and general mood.

Gun ownership is neither a cause of, nor solution to, violence of any kind.

I agree with everything you said except the last bolded phrase. There are many statistics and studies to the contrary.

 

[Ldir]

Me too. Its always facts vs. blind ignorance.

Ignorance like yours? Britain banned handguns. The shooter used a shotgun. Your troll was fail.

 

[First]

If Nick starts it, you know it's a troll thread. Then again, he's a Paul Ryan supporter.

 

[zsdersw]

I agree with everything you said except the last bolded phrase. There are many statistics and studies to the contrary.

"A solution to" means "the end of". Gun ownership isn't going to completely eliminate violence.

 

[MJinZ]

I agree 100%. Which is why gun bans are silly.


"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington

But all of your arguments seemingly attempt to illogically prove that gun control = more crime, and less gun control = less crime.

Gun control comes from several ideologies:

1) Guns are to an extent indefensible and catastrophic to more than one person. The same rationale goes towards why Nuclear proliferation has ceased.

Under a perfect system where people can not get access to a gun, and/or gun ownership means certain death and imprisonment (extremely punitive sentences for being caught with a gun for any reason), there is no reason gun control is a negative.

2) If everyone is armed, then crime will be reduced from fear of direct retaliation.

3) Guns are necessary to keep a government in check.

 

[nick1985]

Ignorance like yours? Britain banned handguns. The shooter used a shotgun. Your troll was fail.

There are so many rules, stipulations, and regulations in Britain regarding shotguns, I would be shocked if his was legal.

For instance they can only hold 3 shells in the UK.




Prove me wrong

 

[nick1985]

"A solution to" means "the end of". Gun ownership isn't going to completely eliminate violence.

Agreed.

 

[CycloWizard]

Having spent a considerable amount of time in England recently, I can definitely say that England is simply traveling down the path of stupidity. Every bus stop in Oxford had an ad for itdoesnthavetohappen.co.uk, which is a foundation trying to ban the carrying of knives in public. Guns were killing so many people, so they banned guns... Now knives are killing so many people... Let's ban them too! Cricket bats are next on the agenda, then football studs... I would have said that this was a slippery slope argument (surely no one is stupid enough to try to ban knives, are they?) except that it's already happening.

It's hardly a surprise that gun ownership is correlated with firearm killings. Show me a similar plot with all killings on the dependent variable axis and let's see if any correlation remains. Then, let's see how the age, gender, and physical size of the victims correlates with gun ownership.

 

[nick1985]

If Nick starts it, you know it's a troll thread. Then again, he's a Paul Ryan supporter.

Arent you the open supporter of illegal immigration?

 

[Blackjack200]

Prove me wrong

lol

 

[nick1985]

lol

I assume that means you have no evidence that this was a legal shotgun? I can just about promise you that it wasnt. To kill 12 and wound 25 with a shotgun that is only 2+1 would take about a dozen reloads.

 

[WelshBloke]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37467424/ns/world_news-europe/?GT1=43001


Sweet gun control. Didn't that criminal know guns were illegal?!?! What a jackass!

Um guns arnt illegal in the UK, loads of people have them were I live.

 

[nick1985]

Um guns arnt illegal in the UK, loads of people have them were I live.

Handguns are, and there are strict restrictions on rifles/shotguns. But living there, I'm sure you know that already

 

[nick1985]

Ignorance like yours? Britain banned handguns. The shooter used a shotgun. Your troll was fail.

"He had this absolutely huge, like, sniper rifle," Cross said. "It was almost touching the floor, massive scope and everything."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/12-dead-england-shooting-rampage/story?id=10807292

 

[WelshBloke]

Handguns are, and there are strict restrictions on rifles/shotguns. But living there, I'm sure you know that already

Not sure about rifles but as I said lots of people round me have shotguns, they cant be that hard to get.

Also not sure what you mean about the limited number of shells, could you elaborate?

 

[highland145]

"He had this absolutely huge, like, sniper rifle," Cross said. "It was almost touching the floor, massive scope and everything."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/12-dead-england-shooting-rampage/story?id=10807292

I'm sure he had the proper paperwork for that.

 

[nick1985]

Not sure about rifles but as I said lots of people round me have shotguns, they cant be that hard to get.

Also not sure what you mean about the limited number of shells, could you elaborate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Shotguns (Section 2 Firearms under the 1968 Act as amended) are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24" and a bore not larger than 2" in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges.[4]



This means 2 in the tube, and 1 in the chamber, for a maximum of 3 shells. You might be able to get a license for greater capacity, I honestly have no idea how hard they are to get if possible.

A lot of states here in the USA have this limitation when hunting. You have to put a plug in your tube to limit you to 2+1

 

[nick1985]

I'm sure he had the proper paperwork for that.

Not a doubt in my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

"Under Home Office guidelines, gun licences are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting or work-related reasons for owning a gun. Since 1946, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a gun. "

 

[Cogman]

Having spent a considerable amount of time in England recently, I can definitely say that England is simply traveling down the path of stupidity. Every bus stop in Oxford had an ad for itdoesnthavetohappen.co.uk, which is a foundation trying to ban the carrying of knives in public. Guns were killing so many people, so they banned guns... Now knives are killing so many people... Let's ban them too! Cricket bats are next on the agenda, then football studs... I would have said that this was a slippery slope argument (surely no one is stupid enough to try to ban knives, are they?) except that it's already happening.

It's hardly a surprise that gun ownership is correlated with firearm killings. Show me a similar plot with all killings on the dependent variable axis and let's see if any correlation remains. Then, let's see how the age, gender, and physical size of the victims correlates with gun ownership.

AMEN. Britain is a nation of retarded fear tactics. If we are to learn anything from them, it is that fear tactics don't work.

When I was there, they had the 'you must be older then 16 to buy a knife and it must not be displayed in public' rule for cooking knives. That, and tons of BS about their ability to catch you committing a crime "We have CCTV cameras everywhere!" "We have DNA testing!" (and no DNA database...) ect.

 

[WelshBloke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom

Shotguns (Section 2 Firearms under the 1968 Act as amended) are defined in UK law as smoothbore firearms with barrels not shorter than 24" and a bore not larger than 2" in diameter, no revolving cylinder, and either no magazine or a non-detachable magazine that is not capable of holding more than two cartridges.[4]



This means 2 in the tube, and 1 in the chamber, for a maximum of 3 shells. You might be able to get a license for greater capacity, I honestly have no idea how hard they are to get if possible.

A lot of states here in the USA have this limitation when hunting. You have to put a plug in your tube to limit you to 2+1

Ahhhh I thought you were suggesting that people were only aloud to own a limited amount of shells at a time which had me a bit .


I think (and I'm way not an expert here) that you need a firearms certificate not a shotgun cert for pump action shotguns with a higher capacity.

People really seem to look down on pump action for hunting in the UK, hell even under and over shotguns are seen as a bit 'off'

 

[nick1985]

People really seem to look down on pump action for hunting in the UK, hell even under and over shotguns are seen as a bit 'off'

LOL what do you use? Double barrels? :awe:

 

[Zebo]

A good way to kill someone or a large group even is a pitcher of gasoline and a butane lighter. Actually there are millions of ways that guns have nothing to do with. Can't stop stupid. Can't stop crazy.

We need to address the sources of violence not the instruments/tools. All you do there is take away right to self defense for the meek, weak, old, women etc and societies streets are run by who's bigger stronger faster.

Sorta like the UFC fighter who ripped out that dude heart and eye balls with his bare hands.

 

[WelshBloke]

LOL what do you use? Double barrels? :awe:

I dont have a shotgun, I was thinking about it but as I can get pretty much free pheasant and duck down the pub when they are in season (like I said lots of people round here go hunting) it didnt seem worth the cost.

And yeah side by side is the way to go round here (and I think most places in the UK) although no one is going to stop you from using an under and over, I think side by side is just seen as more traditional and places were hunting is most prevalent are more traditional/conservative areas.