118 hostages dead...only 1 actually shot dead

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: yellowperil
Wonder why the secret of the gas is so important to the Russian gov't that it's worth 118 innocent lives...reminds me of the Kursk incident.

I think we all know the answer to that (including you). If they revealed what it was then I imagine that information could be used by other terrorists. Like maybe antidotes or in other ways being prepared for it.

Not saying keeping mum about it is good or bad, just trying to answer a question.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: PipBoy
I'll bet the next terrorist group will think twice before trying something like this.

No, they will just have a couple safetys in the hostages so they can detonate the bombs in case something happens. The terror situation around the world is not going to be solved by violence.

 

[Tripleshot]

Iraq is about to be attacked because it may have "weapons of mass destruction" and chemican and biological weapons, and Russia is allowed to use them on its own people THEN refuse to reveal what it is so that the people can be treated. They have done stupid crap like this before (remember the submarine that they refused help to find?). Looks like trouble with making quick decisions.

This seems to be a valid arguement worthy of discussion. Iraq gets much support from Russia, and Russia is against unilaterral aggression by the US and its allies in goingafter Saddam.

I am always fearlful of chemical and bioligical agents. They are easily desiminated and painlfully leathal. Could it be Russia is not supporting the US inits efforts to oust Saddam because they need to protect the secret culpability they have in providing Saddam with the very things we are adament about killing him for?

Was in not Saddam that used these agents againstthe Kurds? I understand Saddam views movies of his "enemies" being totrured, gassed, killed with freat delight.

I ponder the very real threat of these kinds of agents being used against our troops that may be going into battle in Iraq, or even those who are already in Kuwait and Oman. Not to mention scuds aimed at Israel.

If it where proved these agents came from Russia, in a trade for oil, would Russia then become a terrorist state, as Bush has defined?

This is a touchy issue. I wonder what the White House is thinking now?

 

[etech]

Official: Gas Killed 115 Moscow Siege Hostages

"
...
London-based security expert, Michael Yardley, said he believed the gas used was BZ, a colorless, odorless incapacitant with hallucinogenic properties, first used by the United States in Vietnam.


He said the symptoms displayed by the hostages in Moscow -- inability to walk, memory loss, fainting, heartbeat irregularities, sickness -- all pointed to BZ. According to the U.S. army the side effects last 60 hours, Yardley said.


"The Russians wouldn't want a big shout about it because it (BZ) is just the sort of stuff they are not supposed to have," he said. "It's not specifically banned, but...it is in a sort of gray area."
...
"

No other comment at this time.

 

[BCYL]

The gas they used was a nerve-gas which incapacites people... it was used by the US in the Vietnam War...

The Russians said the hostages died because of their poor physical conditions after they were held for more than 30hrs with little food or water (plus high stress levels)... The effects last up to 60 hours...

I dont think the Russian government expected hostages to die from the nerve gas... Besides, the terrorists had people strapped with explosives sitting among the hostages, with their hands on the trigger... what else could the Russian government do? No matter how they rush the threater those terrorists will blow themselves up WITH the hostages...

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: PipBoy I'll bet the next terrorist group will think twice before trying something like this.

No, they will just have a couple safetys in the hostages so they can detonate the bombs in case something happens. The terror situation around the world is not going to be solved by violence.

or they bring along gas masks next time... it's sad we have to live with these risks. :frown:

 

[wjones]

Originally posted by: Elemental007
The other 117 died from the gas attack.

Needless to say....I find it hard to believe this was the most effective way to end it.

Still, I respect the Russians for not negotiating and ending it like this.

right or wrong, this is very sad.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: sandigga
the quickvote at CNN.com says that out of 83,329 voters, 72,274 agreed with the raid.... 87%..... linky

I guarantee you that if the same thing happened here in the US that the outcry would be tremendous.

Originally posted by: Gaard
I think we all know the answer to that (including you). If they revealed what it was then I imagine that information could be used by other terrorists. Like maybe antidotes or in other ways being prepared for it.

Not saying keeping mum about it is good or bad, just trying to answer a question.

Uh.. I would say that is not the reason.
The use of such nerve gas is outlawed by international convention for use in wartime, much less on your own citizens.
The Russian gov't. is most likely concerned about international and UN backlash. Also, the type and composition of this nerve gas is most likely top secret and, as a few US citizens were present, they probably don't want this secret to fall in US hands, much less other terrorists.

 

[cmdavid]

Originally posted by: PSYWVic

Originally posted by: sandigga
the quickvote at CNN.com says that out of 83,329 voters, 72,274 agreed with the raid.... 87%..... linky

I guarantee you that if the same thing happened here in the US that the outcry would be tremendous.

without a doubt....

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BCYL
The gas they used was a nerve-gas which incapacites people... it was used by the US in the Vietnam War...

The Russians said the hostages died because of their poor physical conditions after they were held for more than 30hrs with little food or water (plus high stress levels)... The effects last up to 60 hours...

I dont think the Russian government expected hostages to die from the nerve gas... Besides, the terrorists had people strapped with explosives sitting among the hostages, with their hands on the trigger... what else could the Russian government do? No matter how they rush the threater those terrorists will blow themselves up WITH the hostages...

You know what kind of gas they used? Where did you read that?

edit: found it in latest Yahoo article - Link

 

[Booster]

118 hostages dead...only 1 actually shot dead

Just think that Russian media says these people are in hospitals because of a shock, nobody, AFAIK, mentions the gas. Yeah, that's the Russian way. Human life isn't valued in Russia, neither is freedom or property.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Originally posted by: Booster

118 hostages dead...only 1 actually shot dead

Just think that Russian media says these people are in hospitals because of a shock, nobody, AFAIK, mentions the gas. Yeah, that's the Russian way. Human life isn't valued in Russia, neither is freedom or property.

What property? Russia is dirt poor now.

 

[Booster]

What property? Russia is dirt poor now.

I reckon that's because commies took all the money from people and turned them into slaves that work for free, yet used to shout about 'freedom'.

Anyway, even if you're poor, and they take the last of what you have, ouch that's going to hurt!

 

[SuperTool]

OK, what's with all this second guessing. Russia was facing an unprescedented situation where hostage takers had the whole building rigged and ready to blow up, including support columns which would collapse the roof and kill everyone. The terrorists start killing hostages and the Russians go in. Negotiations are fine until the terrorist start killing hostages en masse. After that line is crossed, action has to be taken. Now if someone can tell me how else they could have gone in to avoid massive explosions and even more carnage, I would like to know. They had to knock out all the terrorists to make sure they had no explosions. Unfortunately people's tolerances for gas vary. It's a horrible situation, but sometimes it's better than the alternative.
What would you rather have read on the morning of 9/11?:
"US military shoots down 4 own planes, kills 400"
or
"3000 dead at WTC, Pentagon"
When terrorists create unthinkable problems, sometimes the government has to use unthinkable solutions.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
OK, what's with all this second guessing. The terrorists start killing hostages and the Russians go in. Negotiations are fine until the terrorist start killing hostages en masse.

Only 2 hostages died from gunfire, according to official new sources. That is not "en masse." Whatever you were told there must not be true.
No one is approving of terrorists or hostages-takers, but this was obviously a more-or-less failed rescue scenario, with unacceptable hostage casualties (~15%). The fact that those deaths were caused by the Russian government, and not the hostage-takers as would be the usual case, makes the situation that much worse.
With Putin on Russian TV giving formal apologies, you can guarantee that heads are rolling in the Russian government right now.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: PSYWVic

Originally posted by: SuperTool
OK, what's with all this second guessing. The terrorists start killing hostages and the Russians go in. Negotiations are fine until the terrorist start killing hostages en masse.

Only 2 hostages died from gunfire, according to official new sources. That is not "en masse." Whatever you were told there must not be true.
No one is approving of terrorists or hostages-takers, but this was obviously a more-or-less failed rescue scenario, with unacceptable hostages casualties (~15%). The fact that those deaths were caused by the Russian government, and not the hostage-takers as would be the usual case, makes the situation that much worse.
With Putin on Russian TV giving formal apologies, you can guarantee that heads are rolling in the Russian government right now.

The terrorists said they would start executing hostages at 6 in the morning. They killed 2 at 5:30, and the Russians heard automatic weapons fire. The hostages that made it out said they had full expectation of being killed. Now, what would you have the Russians do?
1. Sit back and say, "yep let them shoot. they'll run out of ammo eventually"
2. Not use gas, rush in and risk massive explosions. Now even if the building didn't collapse, there were dozens of chechen women sitting there wired up to blow. Surrounded by hostages. We are talking about blowing up dozens of bombs in a crowded theatre. Now given the size of their explosives, each would probably take down a dozen or more around them. If the building collapsed, everyone including the rescuers would die, probably around 1000 people.
3. Use gas. Which would kill some hostages with lower tolerances, but would neutralize the terrorists. They had to use enough gas to incapacitate all terrorists if they wanted to avoid explosions. There are so many variables, that it's impossible to calculate how much gas is needed to avoid killing the hostages and at the same time take out all the terrorists.
The Russians did what they had to do with the information that they had. Now if you can come up with a better solution given what they knew then, I would like to know it. And why are 15% casualties unacceptable? And why would it be better if the hostages were killed by terrorists who wouldn't give them any chance to survive as opposed to being killed by Russians in a rescue attempt, where at least they had a chance?

 

[silverpig]

Hmm, the gas incapacitated everyone in the theatre, but all the terrorists were shot...

Just had to make sure I guess.

 

[etech]

I'll have to agree that the Russians did the right thing. SuperTool has laid it out very well.

I disagree that "heads will roll" because of the action that they took. Compare it to Flight 73 that crashed in Pa. (please do not start the arguement as to why in this thread). If it had not crashed and had continued onto Washington I could have supported the government shooting it down to save more lives.

I see this action as a similar situation. It is quite possible that more lives were saved by the actions that the Russians took. If blame belongs anywhere it is with the terrorists that forced the situation.

 

[SuperTool]

Also you have to consider the message you send to other terrorists:
Message 1: "Russians cower as terrorists kill hostages."
Invites more terrorism. It happenned before under Yeltzin, and it just encouraged more terrorism. Thank God for Putin.

Message 2: "Russians willing to sacrifice own to kill the terrorists."
Tells the terrorists that they are not in control. They cross the line, they are dead.

We are talking about a country who burned down their own capital Moscow in 1812 so that Napoleon's army wouldn't find any shelter and froze to death.

 

[gopunk]

the russians did good in my book... just like that time kidnapped a hijacker and beheaded him to get the others to surrender.

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Hello? No one read these articles? Apparently, the victims could have been saved if the government had revealed what the chemical was.
No one is disputing the fact that they did the right thing, but they didn't follow through.

 

[vladgur]

Originally posted by: tweakmm

Originally posted by: PipBoy
I'll bet the next terrorist group will think twice before trying something like this.

No, they will just have a couple safetys in the hostages so they can detonate the bombs in case something happens. The terror situation around the world is not going to be solved by violence.

You are absolutely right, the terror situation around the world will be solved by L-O-V-E. Shake that tweakmm' booty, shake that thing....

Alternatively, you could turn the other cheek

 

[vladgur]

Originally posted by: Booster

What property? Russia is dirt poor now.

I reckon that's because commies took all the money from people and turned them into slaves that work for free, yet used to shout about 'freedom'.

Anyway, even if you're poor, and they take the last of what you have, ouch that's going to hurt!

You guys are brainwashed with worse propaganda then communists fed their people. Whats next on your mind? It wasnt Chechen terrorists who took DK hostage, it was a bunch of bears walking down the moscow streets?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Jellomancer
Hello? No one read these articles? Apparently, the victims could have been saved if the government had revealed what the chemical was.
No one is disputing the fact that they did the right thing, but they didn't follow through.

This aspect of the case is indeed mystifying and unfortunate. I doubt very much whether that would have been permitted to happen in the US (though I think the use of gas would itself have been wildly unlikely here as well).

 

[markuskidd]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: PSYWVic

Originally posted by: SuperTool
OK, what's with all this second guessing. The terrorists start killing hostages and the Russians go in. Negotiations are fine until the terrorist start killing hostages en masse.

Only 2 hostages died from gunfire, according to official new sources. That is not "en masse." Whatever you were told there must not be true.
No one is approving of terrorists or hostages-takers, but this was obviously a more-or-less failed rescue scenario, with unacceptable hostages casualties (~15%). The fact that those deaths were caused by the Russian government, and not the hostage-takers as would be the usual case, makes the situation that much worse.
With Putin on Russian TV giving formal apologies, you can guarantee that heads are rolling in the Russian government right now.

The terrorists said they would start executing hostages at 6 in the morning. They killed 2 at 5:30, and the Russians heard automatic weapons fire. The hostages that made it out said they had full expectation of being killed. Now, what would you have the Russians do?
1. Sit back and say, "yep let them shoot. they'll run out of ammo eventually"
2. Not use gas, rush in and risk massive explosions. Now even if the building didn't collapse, there were dozens of chechen women sitting there wired up to blow. Surrounded by hostages. We are talking about blowing up dozens of bombs in a crowded theatre. Now given the size of their explosives, each would probably take down a dozen or more around them. If the building collapsed, everyone including the rescuers would die, probably around 1000 people.
3. Use gas. Which would kill some hostages with lower tolerances, but would neutralize the terrorists. They had to use enough gas to incapacitate all terrorists if they wanted to avoid explosions. There are so many variables, that it's impossible to calculate how much gas is needed to avoid killing the hostages and at the same time take out all the terrorists.
The Russians did what they had to do with the information that they had. Now if you can come up with a better solution given what they knew then, I would like to know it. And why are 15% casualties unacceptable? And why would it be better if the hostages were killed by terrorists who wouldn't give them any chance to survive as opposed to being killed by Russians in a rescue attempt, where at least they had a chance?

#4. Allow the Chechans to have a referendum to decide whether they will become an independant republic?