10-23-08 How the Rich Cheat On Their Taxes

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Yes rich people WORK for their money.

The CEOs making millions of dollars got there because they worked for the credentials that qualified them for such a position.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc all made billions because they were business savvy and HARD workers.

My father came to the US with only $5 in his pocket and realized the American dream and is a millionaire today.

Why should he be penalized for his success because some choose to be lazy mooches sitting on forums like this all day long complaining about how the rich are out to get them?

I've been working my ass off all my life and am currently in the 2nd year of med school.

Should I be penalized for going to school for an excruciating amount of years and pay for lazy bums that want to sit home and watch football every night?

It's too bad Republicans have lost their core values, otherwise I completely identify with that party fiscally.

Nice story but you didn't say what your father did to earn the millions when he started with $5 ?

You have some serious penal issues.

What are you afraid if in fact you are working hard?

What are you hiding?

I'm not afraid of anything, just sick and tired of hearing about how hard it is for the poor old middle class to make it because "the man" is keeping them down. Since you're curious, my father came to the US as an immigrant and did miscellaneous jobs ranging from janitorial work, serving RICH people at country clubs (who tipped generously by the way) and working in almond fields for a short time alongside Mexicans.

The difference was he was a hard worker and fiscally conservative. He saved every penny he earned,never took a vacation, worked 7 days a week, lived on a minimum amount of money and shared a 1 bedroom apartment with another friend of his that also immigrated to the US. During the evenings he attended community college classes in accounting and business.

Eventually he saved up enough money for his first business venture in the early 80s (he bought a motel with another investor) and from that point on he continued to invest and grow. THAT is the American dream. Stop complaining and go work for it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

I'm not afraid of anything, just sick and tired of hearing about how hard it is for the poor old middle class to make it because "the man" is keeping them down.

Since you're curious, my father came to the US as immigrant and did miscellaneous jobs ranging from janitorial work, serving RICH people at country clubs (who tipped generously by the way) and he even worked in fields for a short time along Mexicans.

The difference was he was a hard worker and fiscally conservative.

He saved every penny he earned, lived on a minimum amount of money and shared a 1 bedroom apartment with another friend of his that also immigrated to the US.

Eventually he saved up enough money for his first business venture in the early 70s (he bought a motel with another investor) and from that point on he continued to invest and grow.

THAT is the American dream.

Stop complaining and go work for it.

That's nice. You know it could've easily gone the other way on him?

Luckily for him and you it worked out.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

I'm not afraid of anything, just sick and tired of hearing about how hard it is for the poor old middle class to make it because "the man" is keeping them down.

Since you're curious, my father came to the US as immigrant and did miscellaneous jobs ranging from janitorial work, serving RICH people at country clubs (who tipped generously by the way) and he even worked in fields for a short time along Mexicans.

The difference was he was a hard worker and fiscally conservative.

He saved every penny he earned, lived on a minimum amount of money and shared a 1 bedroom apartment with another friend of his that also immigrated to the US.

Eventually he saved up enough money for his first business venture in the early 70s (he bought a motel with another investor) and from that point on he continued to invest and grow.

THAT is the American dream.

Stop complaining and go work for it.

That's nice. You know it could've easily gone the other way on him?

Luckily for him and you it worked out.

Luck doesn't exist. Just because that you feel that you fell into "bad luck" doesn't make it true. We may not have all had equal starting ground, but ultimately you are where you are because of what you have done.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Who's responsibility is it to educate Americans on finances? Thats right. americans.

I agree the lower your income the harder it is to come up with money to avoid taxes on; however, for those low income people, they already pay no, or very little tax money to begin with.

Im talking about the typical middle income family who overspends, is up to their eyeballs in credit debt, and still insists on eating many meals out and buying Starbucks every day.

Well at least you are open and honest with your hate for the ordinary hard working american.

Why do you even make these threads? You are not interested in debate. You merely instigate, people respond in kind, and then you call them a radical righty, American hater, etc.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Luck doesn't exist.

Just because that you feel that you fell into "bad luck" doesn't make it true.

We may not have all had equal starting ground, but ultimately you are where you are because of what you have done.

You're partially right.

There is more than just luck to it.

Either you encounter good people or bad people.

Many bad people get away with doing bad things to good people.

Of course you would never admit that because you I would suspect fall on the bad side.

Just because you have served does not make you a god, sorry.

 

[venkman]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Yes rich people WORK for their money.

The CEOs making millions of dollars got there because they worked for the credentials that qualified them for such a position.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc all made billions because they were business savvy and HARD workers.

My father came to the US with only $5 in his pocket and realized the American dream and is a millionaire today.

Why should he be penalized for his success because some choose to be lazy mooches sitting on forums like this all day long complaining about how the rich are out to get them?

I've been working my ass off all my life and am currently in the 2nd year of med school.

Should I be penalized for going to school for an excruciating amount of years and pay for lazy bums that want to sit home and watch football every night?

It's too bad Republicans have lost their core values, otherwise I completely identify with that party fiscally.

Nice story but you didn't say what your father did to earn the millions when he started with $5 ?

You have some serious penal issues.

What are you afraid if in fact you are working hard?

What are you hiding?

I'm not afraid of anything, just sick and tired of hearing about how hard it is for the poor old middle class to make it because "the man" is keeping them down. Since you're curious, my father came to the US as an immigrant and did miscellaneous jobs ranging from janitorial work, serving RICH people at country clubs (who tipped generously by the way) and working in almond fields for a short time alongside Mexicans.

The difference was he was a hard worker and fiscally conservative. He saved every penny he earned,never took a vacation, worked 7 days a week, lived on a minimum amount of money and shared a 1 bedroom apartment with another friend of his that also immigrated to the US. During the evenings he attended community college classes in accounting and business.

Eventually he saved up enough money for his first business venture in the early 80s (he bought a motel with another investor) and from that point on he continued to invest and grow. THAT is the American dream. Stop complaining and go work for it.

I work my ass off and 36% of my income goes to the Government. Is it too much to ask for everyone who works their ass off to pay their 36-40% also? Apparently, it is.

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Luck doesn't exist.

Just because that you feel that you fell into "bad luck" doesn't make it true.

We may not have all had equal starting ground, but ultimately you are where you are because of what you have done.

You're partially right.

There is more than just luck to it.

Either you encounter good people or bad people.

Many bad people get away with doing bad things to good people.

Of course you would never admit that because you I would suspect fall on the bad side.

Just because you have served does not make you a god, sorry.

I'm exactly where I am in my life situation as a direct result to the decisions that I've made and acted upon.

Blaming my problems on anyone else is ridiculous, and so would accounting for any of my successes.

Sure, other people may have changed my path, but I'm still the pilot of my own life. You work with what you've got. Sitting around and pointing fingers at "bad people" (lol) or the system doesn't fix anything.

My service to the country hasn't been brought up in this thread. I mentioned it in the other thread because it was to validate that my opinion was based on first hand experience while yours wasn't, and I only mention it in similar situations.

Just as if I was in the UAW and commented on the GM bailout threads, yes it would be pertinent information.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Yes rich people WORK for their money. The CEOs making millions of dollars got there because they worked for the credentials that qualified them for such a position. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc all made billions because they were business savvy and HARD workers. My father came to the US with only $5 in his pocket and realized the American dream and is a millionaire today. Why should he be penalized for his success because some choose to be lazy mooches sitting on forums like this all day long complaining about how the rich are out to get them? I've been working my ass off all my life and am currently in the 2nd year of med school. Should I be penalized for going to school for an excruciating amount of years and pay for lazy bums that want to sit home and watch football every night? It's too bad Republicans have lost their core values, otherwise I completely identify with that party fiscally.

You'll be working for the National Health Service soon. Study hard. Uncle Sam will need well trained doctors for his socialized medicine fleet. How does $30 K a year sound?

-Robert

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Sure, other people may have changed my path

No way that couldn't be.

Took a long time but you finally admit what I said is right.

Why fight the truth so hard?

 

[winnar111]

Ah so the rich cheat on their taxes, so we'll raise their tax rates, so they'll cheat more on their taxes.....

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Luck doesn't exist.

Just because that you feel that you fell into "bad luck" doesn't make it true.

We may not have all had equal starting ground, but ultimately you are where you are because of what you have done.

You're partially right.

There is more than just luck to it.

Either you encounter good people or bad people.

Many bad people get away with doing bad things to good people.

Of course you would never admit that because you I would suspect fall on the bad side.

Just because you have served does not make you a god, sorry.

I'm exactly where I am in my life situation as a direct result to the decisions that I've made and acted upon.

Blaming my problems on anyone else is ridiculous, and so would accounting for any of my successes.

Sure, other people may have changed my path, but I'm still the pilot of my own life. You work with what you've got. Sitting around and pointing fingers at "bad people" (lol) or the system doesn't fix anything.

My service to the country hasn't been brought up in this thread. I mentioned it in the other thread because it was to validate that my opinion was based on first hand experience while yours wasn't, and I only mention it in similar situations.

Just as if I was in the UAW and commented on the GM bailout threads, yes it would be pertinent information.

LOL! Have you been totally disconnected from reality for a long time? There is a saying: Success is preparation meeting opportunity (or luck). Life isn't all about luck and it isn't all about preparation. But, one man may be born to a Senator from Connecticut, and another man may be born with Down's Syndrome. I was born with a lot of athletic ability and it got me into and through undergraduate school and into law school. None of my brothers were athletes, so they didn't have that advantage. Michael Jordan was very lucky to have the parents he had, but he was also, admittedly, the hardest working most talented athlete I've ever known.

If you think LUCK does not play a central role in all we are and do, you are delusional. I love to hear these self-made men put their success all down to THEMSELVES. LOL....wisdom is so elusive for some.

-Robert

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Sure, other people may have changed my path

No way that couldn't be.

Took a long time but you finally admit what I said is right.

Why fight the truth so hard?

Once again you completely ignore my post Troll

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Sure, other people may have changed my path

No way that couldn't be.

Took a long time but you finally admit what I said is right.

Why fight the truth so hard?

Is this a roundabout way of you telling us that your childhood sucked? Because there must be something more to you than chance.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Ah so the rich cheat on their taxes, so we'll raise their tax rates, so they'll cheat more on their taxes.....

Ah but the question is how much can they take?

Hopefully we will see.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Sure, other people may have changed my path

No way that couldn't be.

Took a long time but you finally admit what I said is right.

Why fight the truth so hard?

Once again you completely ignore my post Troll

You are trying to have it both ways. Don't make absolutist statements then try to modify them. Either you are a self-made man or you are NOT. Which is it?

-Robert

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: TallBill
Sure, other people may have changed my path

No way that couldn't be.

Took a long time but you finally admit what I said is right.

Why fight the truth so hard?

Is this a roundabout way of you telling us that your childhood sucked? Because there must be something more to you than chance.

Nope my childhood was great.

In fact I was one of the first year of Americans that got to see Disney World when it opened 36 years ago and will be there again in a couple of days for my birthday

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: chess9

LOL! Have you been totally disconnected from reality for a long time? There is a saying: Success is preparation meeting opportunity (or luck). Life isn't all about luck and it isn't all about preparation. But, one man may be born to a Senator from Connecticut, and another man may be born with Down's Syndrome. I was born with a lot of athletic ability and it got me into and through undergraduate school and into law school. None of my brothers were athletes, so they didn't have that advantage. Michael Jordan was very lucky to have the parents he had, but he was also, admittedly, the hardest working most talented athlete I've ever known.

If you think LUCK does not play a central role in all we are and do, you are delusional. I love to hear these self-made men put there success all down to THEMSELVES. LOL....wisdom is so elusive for some.

-Robert

So lots of money and World Championships equal success? Michael Jordan cheated like crazy on his wife and lives in a fucked up world where he cant go anywhere public without being mobbed. Fuck that, I don't want any of it. I'm perfectly happy where I am now in a 700 sq ft. apartment with modest savings.

You guys are looking at someone's life situation defining a man, instead of his existence as a person. If I get falsely accused of murder and sentenced to life, I'd lose everything that I've ever worked for. But even then, I'm in complete control of my life.

Look at the Diary of Anne Frank. Upon first glance, it's a terrible story of a young girl in hiding and murdered for reasons that she couldn't control. But she was far better of a person then Michael Jordan can ever be. Her success is immeasurable because it's not easy to understand at first glance. The love, bravery, and emotion was far more powerful and has impacted far more lives.

And luck doesn't exist. We can quantify chance, and we can explain physics, but luck is just an idea.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: chess9

LOL! Have you been totally disconnected from reality for a long time? There is a saying: Success is preparation meeting opportunity (or luck). Life isn't all about luck and it isn't all about preparation. But, one man may be born to a Senator from Connecticut, and another man may be born with Down's Syndrome. I was born with a lot of athletic ability and it got me into and through undergraduate school and into law school. None of my brothers were athletes, so they didn't have that advantage. Michael Jordan was very lucky to have the parents he had, but he was also, admittedly, the hardest working most talented athlete I've ever known.

If you think LUCK does not play a central role in all we are and do, you are delusional. I love to hear these self-made men put there success all down to THEMSELVES. LOL....wisdom is so elusive for some.

-Robert

So lots of money and World Championships equal success? Michael Jordan cheated like crazy on his wife and lives in a fucked up world where he cant go anywhere public without being mobbed. Fuck that, I don't want any of it. I'm perfectly happy where I am now in a 700 sq ft. apartment with modest savings.

You guys are looking at someone's life situation defining a man, instead of his existence as a person. If I get falsely accused of murder and sentenced to life, I'd lose everything that I've ever worked for. But even then, I'm in complete control of my life.

Look at the Diary of Anne Frank. Upon first glance, it's a terrible story of a young girl in hiding and murdered for reasons that she couldn't control. But she was far better of a person then Michael Jordan can ever be. Her success is immeasurable because it's not easy to understand at first glance. The love, bravery, and emotion was far more powerful and has impacted far more lives.

And luck doesn't exist. We can quantify chance, and we can explain physics, but luck is just an idea.

Just what is your "existence as a person"? WTF is that? Is that some essence of humanity?

You are what you think you are and what other people think you are. Nothing else is real or matters. If you think you are a self made man, however, and the rest of the world thinks you are a poor slob who hasn't made anything, then we have a problem, Houston. It's time for your space program to land, son.

-Robert

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: chess9

Just what is your "existence as a person"? WTF is that? Is that some essence of humanity?

You are what you think you are and what other people think you are. Nothing else is real or matters. If you think you are a self made man, however, and the rest of the world thinks you are a poor slob who hasn't made anything, then we have a problem, Houston. It's time for your space program to land, son.

-Robert

Some would call it your soul. I didn't label it as such, because it also carries a religious meaning which I don't agree with.

Your slob scenario is tough to answer. There really are no true ways to judge other people. Society has created several different methods, but you'll never get full agreement. It is possible that you truly are a slob and don't recognize it. It's also possible that every other person is wrong. The toughest part to stomach is that there never will be a final answer. Eventually you'll die and cease to exist.

I just happen to be very optimistic on life in general. Perhaps its because I have not been hurt bad enough to feel like I've ever been wronged.

Anyways, I've gotta wrap up a paper for school and get going to work. I'll probably check back in on this thread later, but we're so incredibly off the topic that I'll probably respond in PM's.

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
You didn't find any taxbreaks in my all too common scenario beyond those laid out on a 1040EZ form, blackangst1. That basically covers a huge % of people in the middle quintile and below. Yet you maintain that middle income folks don't use the tax breaks available to them, over and over again... even though you can't demonstrate any.

How is that supposed to make sense?

That is because your example is far too simplistic. Most middle class Americans are actual people, with a few more facets to their lives than owning cars, working, etc. For example, you didn't say what their jobs are. Maybe one of them has a small home office they work out of, there are tons of tax breaks associated with that. Maybe they contribute money to their childrens' education fund. There are a lot of possibilities for a couple making $45k. Maybe they aren't in an apartment, but own a house. Average people are not the cookie cutter people you're trying to make them.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm totally opposed to the wealthy cheating on their taxes.

Sure there are a lot of "possibilities", mect, but I laid out a pretty typical one. Home offices are the exception to the rule, and even then, you have to be able to come up with enough total deductions to be able to itemize successfully. That's not easy for working and middle-middle class people who work for somebody else, which the vast majority of us do...

Some of winnar 111's usual drivel-

Ah so the rich cheat on their taxes, so we'll raise their tax rates, so they'll cheat more on their taxes.....

Wealthy Americans enjoy one of the lowest tax rates on their income of any first world country, but they cheat very enthusiastically on their taxes, anyway. There's really no correlation between rates and cheating unless rates are extremely and uncompetitively high. The only real correlation is between the opportunity to cheat and a low likelihood of being caught.

Or, we could just go with the rightwing dream, where those at the top don't pay any taxes, so, of course, they can't cheat...

Which, I suspect, many of those at the top truly believe, given their hubris and sense of entitlement. I'm sure the Russian nobility felt that way in 1917...

And many of the out of their anti tax minds heroes of the Right fringe apparently hold some similar views- Grover Norquist once compared progressive income taxes to the Holocaust...

 

[BansheeX]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Ah so the rich cheat on their taxes, so we'll raise their tax rates, so they'll cheat more on their taxes.....

Not to mention that taxes are applied on INCOME and not existing wealth moving out of investment or business to avoid it. dmcowen doesn't even understand that wealth can sit on the sideline and not earn anything, thus not get hit.

The most disturbing part of his brain is that most people who are wealthy are actually really good people who employ people, are charitable, and who innovated or simply inherited a business from someone who did. To impose a general tax on all rich people to "get" to some crooked ones is like losing a purse snatcher in a crowd and then gunning everyone down instead of letting him go.

 

[idiotekniQues]

people are dumb brainwashed sheep.






90% of the time.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
blackangst1, read the article again. The whole article is about tax breaks/cheats that are available to upper/rich class that aren't available for lower/middle class. If you are a salaried employee making median income it's difficult to get a lot of deductions or hide a portion of your income. Most of the time all you can get is standard deductions or most common itemized deductions such as mortgage. You cannot hide your income either because your employer reports it to IRS. Upper class has much more opportunity to hide true income or take more deductions. It's much easier to hide income from investments or if you have your own business, just cook the books by inflating your losses or underscoring your profits. Such loopholes are simply unavailable to lower/middle class. It's not that they do not know how to take advantage of the tax breaks, it's just that the system makes it easier for wealthy to cheat on the tax code. Money begets money, poverty begets poverty, as someone else already have said in this thread.

First, the idea isnt to shelter money per se, but to shelter it from taxes. When someone making 50k can effectively get to a 10% tax bracket, whats not to love?

Second, ever see the books of a self employed person? I have, and have personal experience. They use A schedules to write off <cough> losses, to lower their effective tax bracket. Dont give me shit about how middle income doesnt have, or dont us, holes in the tax system. Its horseshit.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: TallBill
I just happen to be very optimistic on life in general.

Perhaps its because I have not been hurt bad enough to feel like I've ever been wronged.

Then don't cha think you're not qualified to comment?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
You didn't find any taxbreaks in my all too common scenario beyond those laid out on a 1040EZ form, blackangst1. That basically covers a huge % of people in the middle quintile and below. Yet you maintain that middle income folks don't use the tax breaks available to them, over and over again... even though you can't demonstrate any.

How is that supposed to make sense?

I doubt "most" people invest in a 401k. *shrug* Neither one of us can prove our point, so its moot. How about this family having a whole life insurance policy? Do they? MANY do. How about taking that $80/mo. premium and buy term and invest the difference., BAM. Another IRA deduction. Thats just one example.

How about donations? Goodwill or tithe? You mentioned they are church goers. Do they get a 1099 from their church to report the deduction? Probably not.

Unamortized points on an old refinancing.

Health related costs outside of insurance.

Just a few.