No apparently not as you can see. They would rather die than pay their fair of taxes.
Go Obama go, Tax Tax Tax them rich
No apparently not as you can see. They would rather die than pay their fair of taxes.
Go Obama go, Tax Tax Tax them rich
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
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MovingTarget
Diamond Member
- Jun 22, 2003
- 9,002
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Again, it is about resources. You may be an exception, but most simply fill out the usual 1040EZ or 1040A and be done with it as they have most of their taxes taken out via payroll deduction. Why? Because a) They are unaware of all the breaks they "could" get, b) they don't have the time to go recording every little thing while working long hours their job or c) they don't have the money to hire lawyers/accountants for when they get audited by the IRS for all those deductions. When the best you can do is barely above paycheck-to-paycheck, your options are VERY limited. The lower your income is (above the threshold where you aren't required to file), the more biased against you the system is. Lets stop pretending that the game is the same for everyone regardless of their wealth. It is not.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
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Who's responsibility is it to educate Americans on finances? Thats right. americans.
I agree the lower your income the harder it is to come up with money to avoid taxes on; however, for those low income people, they already pay no, or very little tax money to begin with. Im talking about the typical middle income family who overspends, is up to their eyeballs in credit debt, and still insists on eating many meals out and buying Starbucks every day. THESE are the people who DO have the income to sock away to lower their tax burden, but are too lazy to do it. Hell. Ive met dozens of families of 4 with 6 figure incomes who are 3 paychecks from bankruptcy. People in this country are naive about how to live within a budget, plan for their future, and lowering their tax burden. And its no one but THEIR fault. If they have a desire to learn, a trip to the library will answer all their questions. Or Google for that matter.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
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I dont hate anyone. Im stating a fact. Unlike you, who hates any American who has actually gotten ahead in life and wish nothing but for them to leave the country that gave them opportunity in the first place *shrug*
MovingTarget
Diamond Member
- Jun 22, 2003
- 9,002
- 115
- 106
So the poor are lazy now, is it? /facepalm You can't compare the middle class/working poor to those who make six figure incomes and living paycheck to paycheck due to irresponsible spending habits. That is their own fault. Six figure incomes are definitely upper middle class if not "rich" considering the mean and median incomes of most Americans. However, for the average person who puts in an honest day's work, what they take home doesn't really reflect that. The low income people you talk about who "pay little or very little tax money to begin with" aren't the same as the big-spenders. The pittance of taxes they pay in comparison is simply worth MORE in comparison to those people, as it is needed for necessities such as food, shelter, clothing, utilities, etc. You simply cannot tax them any more no matter how much less they pay. To do so would be immoral and impractical. You make it sound like they have it good with their status in the tax system. I can assure you it is not.
As far as education is concerned, that is another can of worms. Whose responsibility is it? Americans? Well, they have failed. Those coming out of the public education system barely know anything about paying taxes aside from being able to look at their stub and say "who is FICA and where is the rest of my check?". They are taught next to nothing about basic accounting or the tax system. America has failed. Besides, when you work 2+ jobs, you try finding time to go to the local library and do significant research about X and Y tax breaks when that time could be better spent putting in a few extra hours. Having info available doesnt' mean that it is truly accessible. Just ask Arthur Dent.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
So the poor are lazy now, is it? /facepalm You can't compare the middle class/working poor to those who make six figure incomes and living paycheck to paycheck due to irresponsible spending habits. That is their own fault. Six figure incomes are definitely upper middle class if not "rich" considering the mean and median incomes of most Americans. However, for the average person who puts in an honest day's work, what they take home doesn't really reflect that. The low income people you talk about who "pay little or very little tax money to begin with" aren't the same as the big-spenders. The pittance of taxes they pay in comparison is simply worth MORE in comparison to those people, as it is needed for necessities such as food, shelter, clothing, utilities, etc. You simply cannot tax them any more no matter how much less they pay. To do so would be immoral and impractical. You make it sound like they have it good with their status in the tax system. I can assure you it is not.
As far as education is concerned, that is another can of worms. Whose responsibility is it? Americans? Well, they have failed. Those coming out of the public education system barely know anything about paying taxes aside from being able to look at their stub and say "who is FICA and where is the rest of my check?". They are taught next to nothing about basic accounting or the tax system. America has failed. Besides, when you work 2+ jobs, you try finding time to go to the local library and do significant research about X and Y tax breaks when that time could be better spent putting in a few extra hours. Having info available doesnt' mean that it is truly accessible. Just ask Arthur Dent.
I didnt say that AT. ALL. I said if Americans dont know how to budget, or live within a budget, or even understand basic finances, they are lazy. The rest of your rant is true, if thats what I said. But I didnt.
MovingTarget
Diamond Member
- Jun 22, 2003
- 9,002
- 115
- 106
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
So the poor are lazy now, is it? /facepalm You can't compare the middle class/working poor to those who make six figure incomes and living paycheck to paycheck due to irresponsible spending habits. That is their own fault. Six figure incomes are definitely upper middle class if not "rich" considering the mean and median incomes of most Americans. However, for the average person who puts in an honest day's work, what they take home doesn't really reflect that. The low income people you talk about who "pay little or very little tax money to begin with" aren't the same as the big-spenders. The pittance of taxes they pay in comparison is simply worth MORE in comparison to those people, as it is needed for necessities such as food, shelter, clothing, utilities, etc. You simply cannot tax them any more no matter how much less they pay. To do so would be immoral and impractical. You make it sound like they have it good with their status in the tax system. I can assure you it is not.
As far as education is concerned, that is another can of worms. Whose responsibility is it? Americans? Well, they have failed. Those coming out of the public education system barely know anything about paying taxes aside from being able to look at their stub and say "who is FICA and where is the rest of my check?". They are taught next to nothing about basic accounting or the tax system. America has failed. Besides, when you work 2+ jobs, you try finding time to go to the local library and do significant research about X and Y tax breaks when that time could be better spent putting in a few extra hours. Having info available doesnt' mean that it is truly accessible. Just ask Arthur Dent.
I didnt say that AT. ALL. I said if Americans dont know how to budget, or live within a budget, or even understand basic finances, they are lazy. The rest of your rant is true, if thats what I said. But I didnt.
Yeah, I went a little overboard with that bit in the usual P&N fashion. I was trying to emphasize that even though you may live within your means, not knowing/utilizing a plethera of tax breaks doesn't make you lazy. Not everyone is smart enough or has the time to do that kind of research on tax breaks. Lumping in honest, hardworking middle to lower class people with those who live wastefully is counterproductive. I can get a little worked up about such things as I have a lot of life experience with the working poor.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
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NP. Look. Im not saying theres a solution for everyone. There isnt. But for the majority of Americans there are things they can do within their budget to reduce debt, reduce spending, and lower their taxes. I understand people are busy but shit. Isnt finances important? People spend more time planning out juniors basketball games than their own budget. Its like I say about marriage-people spend more time planning the wedding than the marriage! Its no wonder people fail. There are magazines, like Money for example, that are written at a high school level people can subscribe to and read at their leisure to learn about money. If its important, they will find the time. Its not like there isnt an wealth (no pun intended) of information available to anyone who looks. One thing that applies to alot of people is life insurance. You would be amazed how many middle income people have it, but are overpaying through ponzi whole life products. They can get the same death benefit from term at a fraction of the cost. Or get it through work. Just one example. Next time youre at the store look at how much processed food people buy. If they were to spend a little extra time and actually MAKE meals and buy a dozen Tupperware (tm) containers to put leftovers in, they would save money. I could go on and on.
fallout man
Golden Member
- Nov 20, 2007
- 1,787
- 1
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The middle income folks would have a net gain through tax-breaks if they hired an accountant.
That being said, the government's income would suffer if all the stupid "po' people" actually took advantage of the pathetic tax breaks they are allowed. I will bet that the average middle-income family living from paycheck to paycheck has nowhere near the deductibles and loopholes a millionaire investore can take advantage of.
I could dig up the figures, but I think there have been threads here already showing how millionaires and corporations end up paying around 10-15% less taxes than the average middle income family.
That being said, the government's income would suffer if all the stupid "po' people" actually took advantage of the pathetic tax breaks they are allowed. I will bet that the average middle-income family living from paycheck to paycheck has nowhere near the deductibles and loopholes a millionaire investore can take advantage of.
I could dig up the figures, but I think there have been threads here already showing how millionaires and corporations end up paying around 10-15% less taxes than the average middle income family.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
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Nor do they need them. Middle income doesnt need more tax breaks on top of the ones they dont already use!
(Now lets watch someone quote me as saying middle class doesnt need tax breaks )
Meh. The whole notion that working class and lower middle class families have tax breaks they aren't using seems far-fetched, to me.
Make some tax breaks out of this common scenario-
Family of 4, both parents working, renting an apartment or modest house. Combined income puts them somewhat below median family income. He works nights, she works days to avoid childcare costs. They both drive older cars, one of them paid for, and they also have half-assed decent healthcare insurance through one of their employers, their copays being several hundred dollars/mo. Varying (modest) credit card debt, depending on what catastrophe they dealt with last and how long ago. Both contribute the minimum to get the employer match on their 401K plans, even though it cramps their style significantly. When they go on vacation, it's camping, or visiting and staying with relatives. No smoking, moderate alcohol consumption, church-goers, low entertainment spending.
Pretty ordinary, huh? Find the taxbreaks beyond the obvious, if you can...
Make some tax breaks out of this common scenario-
Family of 4, both parents working, renting an apartment or modest house. Combined income puts them somewhat below median family income. He works nights, she works days to avoid childcare costs. They both drive older cars, one of them paid for, and they also have half-assed decent healthcare insurance through one of their employers, their copays being several hundred dollars/mo. Varying (modest) credit card debt, depending on what catastrophe they dealt with last and how long ago. Both contribute the minimum to get the employer match on their 401K plans, even though it cramps their style significantly. When they go on vacation, it's camping, or visiting and staying with relatives. No smoking, moderate alcohol consumption, church-goers, low entertainment spending.
Pretty ordinary, huh? Find the taxbreaks beyond the obvious, if you can...
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
- 126
Well, in 2007 median income was about 50k, so in your example lets say 45k (your words-somewhat below median). First, they already have several tax breaks as you've pointed out. Second, at that gross their taxable wont be above 35k, so lets say a flat 15% bracket. Their tax would roughly be just over $5,000, or approx net 10% of gross.
Not bad. Anyone paying 10% federal AND expecting loads of gov't services AND wanting lower taxes is stoned.
fleshconsumed
Diamond Member
- Feb 21, 2002
- 6,486
- 2,363
- 136
blackangst1, read the article again. The whole article is about tax breaks/cheats that are available to upper/rich class that aren't available for lower/middle class. If you are a salaried employee making median income it's difficult to get a lot of deductions or hide a portion of your income. Most of the time all you can get is standard deductions or most common itemized deductions such as mortgage. You cannot hide your income either because your employer reports it to IRS. Upper class has much more opportunity to hide true income or take more deductions. It's much easier to hide income from investments or if you have your own business, just cook the books by inflating your losses or underscoring your profits. Such loopholes are simply unavailable to lower/middle class. It's not that they do not know how to take advantage of the tax breaks, it's just that the system makes it easier for wealthy to cheat on the tax code. Money begets money, poverty begets poverty, as someone else already have said in this thread.
fallout man
Golden Member
- Nov 20, 2007
- 1,787
- 1
- 0
What's your problem with having middle-income citizens having a little bit of extra cash they can invest in the economy and their future? Haven't you heard of the whole trickle down thing?
You didn't find any taxbreaks in my all too common scenario beyond those laid out on a 1040EZ form, blackangst1. That basically covers a huge % of people in the middle quintile and below. Yet you maintain that middle income folks don't use the tax breaks available to them, over and over again... even though you can't demonstrate any.
How is that supposed to make sense?
How is that supposed to make sense?
The rich can avoid income tax through clever or unscrupulous ways, the poor can avoid it...the hookers the pimps, the drug dealers they pay no income tax but no one talks about them just the rich.....there is a HUGE amount of money that Uncle Sam never sees....BUT everybody has to buy shit...food, clothing gas, etc. etc....so why not do away with the income tax and a higher flat rate sales tax that way everybody pays and no one get a walk.
That is because your example is far too simplistic. Most middle class Americans are actual people, with a few more facets to their lives than owning cars, working, etc. For example, you didn't say what their jobs are. Maybe one of them has a small home office they work out of, there are tons of tax breaks associated with that. Maybe they contribute money to their childrens' education fund. There are a lot of possibilities for a couple making $45k. Maybe they aren't in an apartment, but own a house. Average people are not the cookie cutter people you're trying to make them.
Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm totally opposed to the wealthy cheating on their taxes.
5150Joker
Diamond Member
Yes rich people WORK for their money. The CEOs making millions of dollars got there because they worked for the credentials that qualified them for such a position. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet etc all made billions because they were business savvy and HARD workers. My father came to the US with only $5 in his pocket and realized the American dream and is a millionaire today. Why should he be penalized for his success because some choose to be lazy mooches sitting on forums like this all day long complaining about how the rich are out to get them? I've been working my ass off all my life and am currently in the 2nd year of med school. Should I be penalized for going to school for an excruciating amount of years and pay for lazy bums that want to sit home and watch football every night? It's too bad Republicans have lost their core values, otherwise I completely identify with that party fiscally.
Nice story but you didn't say what your father did to earn the millions when he started with $5 ?
You have some serious penal issues.
What are you afraid if in fact you are working hard?
What are you hiding?
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