10-23-08 How the Rich Cheat On Their Taxes

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
hmm a transparent flat tax..yeah then you'd have guys like dmcowen yelling murder because the rich get to keep more of their money.

That is always the underlying theme.

Why are the rich so reluctant to contribute their fair share to a country they supposedly love?

Could be for the love of money above all else?

I like Obama's idea of mandatory military service because all both poor, middle class (if any left) and rich would have to serve and shit side by side.

The bottom fifth of income earners pay 4.5% of taxes collected. The middle fifth pays 15%. The top fifth pays 25%.

Who doesnt pay their fair share again?

You

Are you on AT's payroll? And what percentage should the top fifth pay? In general.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
hmm a transparent flat tax..yeah then you'd have guys like dmcowen yelling murder because the rich get to keep more of their money.

That is always the underlying theme.

Why are the rich so reluctant to contribute their fair share to a country they supposedly love?

Could be for the love of money above all else?

I like Obama's idea of mandatory military service because all both poor, middle class (if any left) and rich would have to serve and shit side by side.

The bottom fifth of income earners pay 4.5% of taxes collected. The middle fifth pays 15%. The top fifth pays 25%.

Who doesnt pay their fair share again?

You

You are comically jealous of others, I've never met in my personal life anybody so bitter at others' success. Where did your parents go wrong? At least the buck stops with you, too late to have kids now, thank heavens, you would make probably a 5th percentile father.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
The bottom fifth of income earners pay 4.5% of taxes collected. The middle fifth pays 15%. The top fifth pays 25%.

Who doesnt pay their fair share again?

When you compare it that way, your question doesn't make any sense. 10% of $100 is $10 but 1% of $10,000 is 100$

Just because B is larger than A, it doesn't logically follow that B has given a larger share of their own. B is giving less than A.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: blackangst1
The bottom fifth of income earners pay 4.5% of taxes collected. The middle fifth pays 15%. The top fifth pays 25%.

Who doesnt pay their fair share again?

When you compare it that way, your question doesn't make any sense. 10% of $100 is $10 but 1% of $10,000 is 100$

Just because B is larger than A, it doesn't logically follow that B has given a larger share of their own. B is giving less than A.

But they have. Unless you are insanely rich and live off capital gains you are paying more of your income as a %. What you just presented as a counter to his argument is a regressive tax system. Which is not what we have today.

Your comparison should have said 10% of 100 is 10 bucks and 30% of 10K is 3000. If you want it to relate to anything resembling the real world.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Your comparison should have said 10% of 100 is 10 bucks and 30% of 10K is 3000. If you want it to relate to anything resembling the real world.

Well why is it like that either?

I'm willing to accept that my misunderstanding comes from the fact that I'm at the bottom of the barrel, <$40K/yr, "who the fuck is this FICO guy?!" but why can't everyone pay the same percent of their income and do away with all this hocus pocus shit? I don't understand why there is an entire profession dedicated to figuring out how to pay as little as you can in taxes.*

That would be the only way it could be considered anything resembling "fair" imo.



*edit: Well, I understand, If I had the money I would want to give as little as possible as well.. I'm asking why this is allowed to happen.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: Genx87
Your comparison should have said 10% of 100 is 10 bucks and 30% of 10K is 3000. If you want it to relate to anything resembling the real world.

Well why is it like that either?

I'm willing to accept that my misunderstanding comes from the fact that I'm at the bottom of the barrel, <$40K/yr, "who the fuck is this FICO guy?!" but why can't everyone pay the same percent of their income and do away with all this hocus pocus shit? I don't understand why there is an entire profession dedicated to figuring out how to pay as little as you can in taxes.*

That would be the only way it could be considered anything resembling "fair" imo.



*edit: Well, I understand, If I had the money I would want to give as little as possible as well.. I'm asking why this is allowed to happen.

Youre exactly right. It would be fair; however, the reason you wont see it in our lifetime, is threefold: The lower income folks who pay either nil or minimal tax, as well as the middle class, will pay MORE of their income in taxes; the rich will pay LESS of their income in taxes; and the fed will lose tax revenue.

 

[The-Noid]

Aren't the rich the ones that are advocating a flat tax system. It kind of puts your point to rest.

There is also this thing called "Alternative Minimum Tax" which is based on the amount of deductions you make and makes people making 150-700k (after 700 you go back into the higher bracket and get your deductions back) to have to pay a higher percentage and lose their deductions.

Flat tax is a great idea, it is the best idea Dave has ever posted about.

Fair is fair, we all can agree to that.

 

[MrMaster]

Actually,

Cause I work with tax returns for business loans, I can tell you that there are TONS of ways to lower your tax rate.

I never saw anyone making over 100,000 have more than a 10% tax rate after deductions.

Deductions, deductions, deductions and especially business deductions. That is how the rich avoid paying very little in taxes.

 

[JohnnyGage]

I would prefer the Fair Tax, but anything that would do away with the 2 million page tax code now would suffice.

 

[Xavier434]

No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

In regards to paying their "fair" share...well, that is a completely different discussion. Personally, I am not so much interested in what is fair as I am in what is progressive although I have line drawn with that too. Regardless, we can argue about what is "fair" till the end of time and I promise you that we will not get anywhere as it has been proven so many times in so many threads regarding regressive vs progressive taxation. It is much easier to discuss solidifying the current rules in the way that they are intended to be followed.

America strives in pursuit of happiness which does not always equate to pursuing what is 100% fair. That's just a hard fact of life every American needs to get used to both rich and poor. It will never change.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income. As Ive mentioned before. In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips. And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income.

As Ive mentioned before.

In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips.

And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

Wow a whopping $41,000 , that will fix the economy in a heartbeat better send out the agents after those waiters pronto. :roll:

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income. As Ive mentioned before. In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips. And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

As I already stated, if there is a cost efficient way to plug these loop holes then I am all for it. Just remember that when and if you do this you will see a large increase in social service expenses. Many of these people live paycheck to paycheck and do not have money to spare and no additional expenses to cut because all of their expenses are necessities. I'd rather these people live their lives off of social services while not reporting their tips personally. Which seems better to you?

There really is no easy way to do this right. Those with more money always talk about what is fair, but what is fair is not always a cheaper and efficient solution that makes a difference. If it were that easy then it would have already been done long before you and I were born. I think that if we went after the low income earners hardcore when it comes to their evasion of taxes we would just end up in a worse position in the sense that more tax dollars would be spent needlessly and all for the sake of giving people like you and I some sort of peace of mind over what we believe is "fair". Not really worth it imo. It feels fair but it also feels very wasteful. My life will not get better and I doubt that yours will either.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
The rich want to keep more of the money they WORKED their ass off for? What a crazy concept!!

Yes, the rich 'worked' harder by owning the companies than the workers at those companies. Only the rich are entitled to respect for their hard work.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income. As Ive mentioned before. In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips. And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

As I already stated, if there is a cost efficient way to plug these loop holes then I am all for it. Just remember that when and if you do this you will see a large increase in social service expenses. Many of these people live paycheck to paycheck and do not have money to spare and no additional expenses to cut because all of their expenses are necessities. I'd rather these people live their lives off of social services while not reporting their tips personally. Which seems better to you?

There really is no easy way to do this right. Those with more money always talk about what is fair, but what is fair is not always a cheaper and efficient solution that makes a difference. If it were that easy then it would have already been done long before you and I were born. I think that if we went after the low income earners hardcore when it comes to their evasion of taxes we would just end up in a worse position in the sense that more tax dollars would be spent needlessly and all for the sake of giving people like you and I some sort of peace of mind over what we believe is "fair". Not really worth it imo. It feels fair but it also feels very wasteful. My life will not get better and I doubt that yours will either.

Thank you for supporting my opinion

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
No matter how you slice it, no one should be permitted to hide their wealth to avoid taxes. All of these loopholes need to be plugged.

And that should include low income earners who hide their income as well. Fair's fair. They need to pay their fair share on income they earn too.

Low income earners rarely can hide any of their income because it pretty much all comes from a paycheck which is automatically reported to the IRS. Still, if they find ways to hide it then that should be plugged too even though it will be much more difficult and hardly worth it becuase under the table money for these people is a tiny drop in the bucket. It most likely is not worth the money spent trying to plug that specific loophole, but maybe there is way. If there is then I am all for it. If not, I would rather my tax dollars be spent on other things.

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income.

As Ive mentioned before.

In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips.

And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

Wow a whopping $41,000 , that will fix the economy in a heartbeat better send out the agents after those waiters pronto. :roll:

Thats not the point you tool.

OT is a few forums over. Do you propose tax our way out of this mess? Are you fucking kidding me?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income.

As Ive mentioned before.

In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips.

And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

Wow a whopping $41,000 , that will fix the economy in a heartbeat better send out the agents after those waiters pronto. :roll:

Thats not the point you tool.

OT is a few forums over. Do you propose tax our way out of this mess? Are you fucking kidding me?

Cutting taxes for the rich sure worked well :roll:

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Who knows what the number of them is, but anyone making tips hides their income.

As Ive mentioned before.

In college I worked at Red Robin and made about $800/week in tips.

And of course wait staff make what...$2.50/hr or something. So effectively 90+% of their income is hidden.

Unless you think the majority of tip related employees actually report it...then I have a bridge to sell you.

Wow a whopping $41,000 , that will fix the economy in a heartbeat better send out the agents after those waiters pronto. :roll:

Thats not the point you tool.

OT is a few forums over. Do you propose tax our way out of this mess? Are you fucking kidding me?

Cutting taxes for the rich sure worked well :roll:

Can you give an example of a country or a state taxing their way to prosperity?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

OT is a few forums over. Do you propose tax our way out of this mess? Are you fucking kidding me?

Cutting taxes for the rich sure worked well :roll:

Can you give an example of a country or a state taxing their way to prosperity?[/quote]

Can you give an example of a country cutting taxes to prosperity?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
hmm a transparent flat tax..yeah then you'd have guys like dmcowen yelling murder because the rich get to keep more of their money.

That is always the underlying theme.

Why are the rich so reluctant to contribute their fair share to a country they supposedly love?

Could be for the love of money above all else?

I like Obama's idea of mandatory military service because all both poor, middle class (if any left) and rich would have to serve and shit side by side.

You're the one who loves money more than anything. You constantly scream about it and how you don't have enough.

 

[Zenmervolt]

From the article:

"In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%."

Dave's self-employed, isn't he?

ZV

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
From the article:

"In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%."

Dave's self-employed, isn't he?

ZV

After a quick look it looks like the average income for sole proprietors in 2006 was 55-70k. Hardly rich. And theyre stealing. Tax the fuck outta them!

edit: massive spelling errors

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Xavier434
As I already stated, if there is a cost efficient way to plug these loop holes then I am all for it. Just remember that when and if you do this you will see a large increase in social service expenses. Many of these people live paycheck to paycheck and do not have money to spare and no additional expenses to cut because all of their expenses are necessities. I'd rather these people live their lives off of social services while not reporting their tips personally. Which seems better to you?

There really is no easy way to do this right. Those with more money always talk about what is fair, but what is fair is not always a cheaper and efficient solution that makes a difference. If it were that easy then it would have already been done long before you and I were born. I think that if we went after the low income earners hardcore when it comes to their evasion of taxes we would just end up in a worse position in the sense that more tax dollars would be spent needlessly and all for the sake of giving people like you and I some sort of peace of mind over what we believe is "fair". Not really worth it imo. It feels fair but it also feels very wasteful. My life will not get better and I doubt that yours will either.

Thank you for supporting my opinion

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe the major difference between what you and I theorize is what is truly cost efficient in terms of plugging up loopholes in the tax code. I believe that it is much easier to do that when it comes to the methods that the rich use than it is to plug up the methods of the lower income earners. Of course, neither one of us can truly be sure. We can only hope that someday the politicians both figure it out and enforce it. That goes for any party.