[1/6/24: A crazy problem - need your thoughts] Bow before me I built a new rig. Boy, things have come a long way.

[Brainonska511]

Heck I don't know. I wasn't claiming any knowledge.

Here is my BIOS screen:

Technically, it's Expo on AMD, but I've seen plenty of AMD platforms that just call it XMP in the BIOS. It's probably just a trademark thing.

 

[lakedude]

Technically, it's Expo on AMD, but I've seen plenty of AMD platforms that just call it XMP in the BIOS. It's probably just a trademark thing.

Looking at it closer the BIOS appears to have empty slots for both EXPO and XMP but it looks like the RAM itself only contains an XMP profile?

 

[manly]

Looking at it closer the BIOS appears to have empty slots for both EXPO and XMP but it looks like the RAM itself only contains an XMP profile?

yeah without getting into the weeds, those are timings that were pre-configured by Intel. Which explains why an AMD platform board would support both EXPO and XMP profiles.

 

[Zeze]

It  could be the CPU but I haven't seen a bad CPU since the Cyrix/Via days.

Faster RAM settings might reduce your boot time making it hard to time the keystrokes to enter BIOS?

Did you ever try the shutdown options to reboot into BIOS?

Yes, it just hangs if I try to get into BIOS from windows 11. Same stuff.

I've been so busy and Microcenter being so far, I haven't been able to make the swap and try the new mobo.

I pray that it's the motherboard (I can still return). It could be CPU since all points to CPU as the prob persists through 2 same model motherboards and 2 pairs of ram (32 and 64).

I just pray it's some unholy issue with the mobo MODEL and the diff brand fixes it (Gigabyte, not MSI from the bundle). THe manager said he can do that.

If it turns out to be CPU.. I don't know what my options are. It's past the return window.

 

[Captante]

Just a shot in the dark but repeatedly hitting F8 on my MB (ASUS B550) brings up a "choose boot-device" menu and one of the options is "enter setup" that takes you to the BIOS.

Also I believe booting from a windows 11 setup USB drive offers an option to "boot into UEFI setup" but I can't recall which sub-menu its under. (there's not that many choices don't worry!)

Both of these would only qualify as "work-arounds" not fixes though sorry.

 

[lakedude]

Did some Googling and of course RAM is a suspect. If it is RAM maybe your sticks are tiny bit unreliable at full EXPO/XMP speeds?

You might manually tweak your RAM settings up little by little instead of taking the big jump between JEDEC and XMP?

Someone had an issue with the monitor not being compatible with the BIOS res and refresh so they just got a black screen until they changed monitors. I don't think that is your issue but still good to know.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You might manually tweak your RAM settings up little by little instead of taking the big jump between JEDEC and XMP?

That's actually what I did to get my (used) DDR5-5600 EXPO kit working on my Z790 mobo. It has no XMP profile. Started from DDR5-3600 and it isn't stable anywhere above DDR5-4600. I got solace in the form of CL28 timing so I guess it was not a total loss.

 

[Zeze]

Did some Googling and of course RAM is a suspect. If it is RAM maybe your sticks are tiny bit unreliable at full EXPO/XMP speeds?

You might manually tweak your RAM settings up little by little instead of taking the big jump between JEDEC and XMP?

Someone had an issue with the monitor not being compatible with the BIOS res and refresh so they just got a black screen until they changed monitors. I don't think that is your issue but still good to know.

But why does the prob persist across two different pairs? (32gb 36cl & 64gb 30cl).

I mean, is the average pc user expected to tweak one by one when the whole advantage of EXPO is a 1-click?

This is why I suspect it may be the CPU (memory controller within). It's not unheard of when you google reddit about it regarding 7800x3d.

 

[lakedude]

Ahh, you might be on to something.

Definitely seems like something RAM related if not the RAM itself then the MB or as you say the memory controller on the CPU, or a compatibility issue between them.

XMP settings change voltage as well as frequency and timings. Could be something there?

 

[Zeze]

Stupid microcenter so far away.

 

[lakedude]

Stupid microcenter so far away.

Closest one to us is 196 miles away. Which is too far when we have Best Buy and Wal-Mart locally along with B&H, Newegg, Amazon etc. online.

 

[In2Photos]

This is really interesting. At first I honestly just thought you had some weird bug going on. After all, we haven't heard of this being a widespread problem. But I just found another thread on a different forum with multiple people confirming the same thing. They have different motherboards, different RAM kits, different GPUs. But they all report that once they turn EXPO on they can't get into the BIOS. One person did mention that if he connects his monitor to the motherboard during boot he sees the output.

Can't boot to Bios Ryzen 7800X3D

When I boot my display gets no signal for about 30 seconds. It then boots to windows. If I click <DEL> during boot it just black screens. PC works fine on boot but I need to get in to the bios. Any ideas?

linustechtips.com

Does your monitor have multiple inputs? Can you try connecting it to both the motherboard output (perhaps HDMI) AND the GPU output (perhaps DP) and see if you get a screen during boot and in Windows?

Also, have you tried every port on your GPU during boot? Perhaps only one of the ports is active on boot for some reason.

 

[lakedude]

Also, have you tried every port on your GPU during boot? Perhaps only one of the ports is active on boot for some reason.

Yes, good work, but why does the port only go wonky on XMP and not JEDEC?

I've had monitors that would get stuck on some impossible setting and become unusable. The way to fix the problem was to already have the correct sequence of button pushes memorized and pray while you mashed buttons blindly. It was weird.

This seems similar but not sure how it ties in with the RAM setting...

 

[Zeze]

Thanks for your feedback.

I am not convinced it's the monitor input problem. It's just unstable, hangs and doesn't even boot consistently. Definitely not a display issue.

I think it points to ram since it starts when expo gets turned on. But ive had two different pairs.

That means it's the CPU and the memory controller inside it.

 

[bigboxes]

Thanks for your feedback.

I am not convinced it's the monitor input problem. It's just unstable, hangs and doesn't even boot consistently. Definitely not a display issue.

I think it points to ram since it starts when expo gets turned on. But ive had two different pairs.

That means it's the CPU and the memory controller inside it.

I built a Devil's Canyon machine in 2014. Used a WS mobo and some 32GB of G.Skill ram. I had problems with a couple of the ram slots. Returned the mobo. Then, troubleshooted again with the replacement. Turns out that 2 of the 4 ram modules were bad. RMA'd to G.Skil. Got back and everything was stable. Never RMA'd the CPU. I expect ram to run at rated speed. I set the ram to XMP/DOCP/EXPO and I expect it to be stable at the speed.

 

[In2Photos]

Yes, good work, but why does the port only go wonky on XMP and not JEDEC?

I've had monitors that would get stuck on some impossible setting and become unusable. The way to fix the problem was to already have the correct sequence of button pushes memorized and pray while you mashed buttons blindly. It was weird.

This seems similar but not sure how it ties in with the RAM setting...

We don't know all the things that happen when you enable XMP/EXPO. I have a feeling it doesn't just changes RAM speed and timings. We know from previous experience that enabling XMP/EXPO increases vSOC. It's likely doing many other things that we are unaware of.

Thanks for your feedback.

I am not convinced it's the monitor input problem. It's just unstable, hangs and doesn't even boot consistently. Definitely not a display issue.

I think it points to ram since it starts when expo gets turned on. But ive had two different pairs.

That means it's the CPU and the memory controller inside it.

While it may not be a monitor input problem it was an easy test to see if your video out was delayed to the GPU. But this is the first I have read that you are also having other problems. (OK, just went back through your posts and saw you mentioned it another time as well). Can you tell us the exact kit of RAM you bought (the 64GB kit)? There's no mention of the manufacturer or a part number anywhere. Curious if it is on the QVL list for the motherboard. A lack of boot sometimes points to a lack of post, but since you can't see the screen you have no idea what is actually going on during this time.

Any chance you have updated the AMD chipset drivers? May not matter, but always worth a shot.

BTW, if there is something wrong with the CPU and you are past the return window you can always contact AMD, you should be in the warranty period.

 

[WelshBloke]

I've found that if I'm using 4 sticks of RAM then it's much better to manually dial in the RAM timings and speeds to what the XMP/EXPO settings are. You might not get all the timings as tight as the XMP/EXPO settings but it'll be stable and the speed difference will be negligible.

 

[Zeze]

We don't know all the things that happen when you enable XMP/EXPO. I have a feeling it doesn't just changes RAM speed and timings. We know from previous experience that enabling XMP/EXPO increases vSOC. It's likely doing many other things that we are unaware of.

While it may not be a monitor input problem it was an easy test to see if your video out was delayed to the GPU. But this is the first I have read that you are also having other problems. (OK, just went back through your posts and saw you mentioned it another time as well). Can you tell us the exact kit of RAM you bought (the 64GB kit)? There's no mention of the manufacturer or a part number anywhere. Curious if it is on the QVL list for the motherboard. A lack of boot sometimes points to a lack of post, but since you can't see the screen you have no idea what is actually going on during this time.

Any chance you have updated the AMD chipset drivers? May not matter, but always worth a shot.

BTW, if there is something wrong with the CPU and you are past the return window you can always contact AMD, you should be in the warranty period.

• My first RAM kit that came with the Microcenter bundle: G.Skill Flare X5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5-6000 PC5-48000 CL36 Dual Channel 36-36-36-96 F5-6000J3636F16GX2-FX5
• I returned above and got this from Microcenter: G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB Series 64GB (2 x 32GB) DDR5-6000 PC5-48000 CL30 Dual Channel 30-40-40-96 F5-6000J3040G32GX2-TZ5RK

I stress tested the 64gb and it's reporting correctly at 6000 with advertised timing in Win11. But as you know, the issue is that I can't get to BIOS and it also hangs with long RAM training time with occasional failure.

 

[In2Photos]

• My first RAM kit that came with the Microcenter bundle: G.Skill Flare X5 Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5-6000 PC5-48000 CL36 Dual Channel 36-36-36-96 F5-6000J3636F16GX2-FX5
• I returned above and got this from Microcenter: G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB Series 64GB (2 x 32GB) DDR5-6000 PC5-48000 CL30 Dual Channel 30-40-40-96 F5-6000J3040G32GX2-TZ5RK

I stress tested the 64gb and it's reporting correctly at 6000 with advertised timing in Win11. But as you know, the issue is that I can't get to BIOS and it also hangs with long RAM training time with occasional failure.

The bundled RAM is on the QVL, but not the Trident Z (there is a 64GB kit of Trident Z with CAS 36 though). Doesn't mean it won't work, but it hasn't been tested by MSI.

It could be worth a shot to enter in manual timings and speed and see what you get. Heck, maybe just start by increasing the speed from 4800 by 100MHz until you get to 6000 and see if you stop being able to get into the BIOS. Then you could start adjusting timings.

But I get it, the whole point of EXPO is being able to 1 click the settings and be done. For whatever reason your system doesn't like something. Maybe it is the memory controller on your particular 7800X3D. Another option would be to set EXPO, then manually lower the clock speed of the RAM, maybe to 5600 and see what happens?

 

[Brainonska511]

Isn't the highest official support for the 7800x3D 5200 Mhz? I know many run higher, but it could be worth checking that the highest officially supported speed works first.

You could try turning on EXPO/XMP, and then lowering the RAM multiplier a little, to reduce the need to play with any other timings, and see if that fixes the issue. Sort of what In2Photos is saying.

 

[manly]

Closest one to us is 196 miles away. Which is too far when we have Best Buy and Wal-Mart locally along with B&H, Newegg, Amazon etc. online.

This is a feature, not a bug.

I remember Fry's Electronics used to be 20 minutes from home, and every Friday I'd check their weekly ad to see if I'd make the trip. Of course that was a long time ago when they actually had good deals and some quality control. I think Micro Center is great, but at almost an hour away, I rarely ever go there. The only time in 2023 was a few months ago, to get the same kit that the OP got.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think Micro Center is great, but at almost an hour away, I rarely ever go there.

By car I assume?

How about rise up early in the morning, get on your bicycle and get there in 3 or 4 hours? You will be so exhausted that your brain will be like, get what you came here for and get out! So you get great exercise, a good deal and also escape buying something unnecessary. Unbeatable combo!

 

[manly]

By car I assume?

How about rise up early in the morning, get on your bicycle and get there in 3 or 4 hours? You will be so exhausted that your brain will be like, get what you came here for and get out! So you get great exercise, a good deal and also escape buying something unnecessary. Unbeatable combo!

Sorry, but you'll have to explain to this American what a bicycle is?

 

[Zeze]

Sorry, but you'll have to explain to this American what a bicycle is?

It's like a downgraded 'green' socialist motorcycle.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's like a downgraded 'green' socialist motorcycle.

Runs on farts