Zero-Sum Game, the worlds population

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Interesting read. One has to wonder at what point we hit the carrying capacity of the planet or whether we already have. Obviously at some point there will be a ceiling to population. Whether its energy (oil), foood (arable land), water or some other aspect there will be a ceiling.

Knowing this should we take steps to curb population growth? Should America implement a set number of children per household law, or work with UN and other worldwide organizations and governments to set child limits per mother? Or would it be preferable to let freedom rule the day and let nature sort it out in the end?

Article

Zero-Sum Game

Oops!?bad timing. The announcement that California taxpayers will have to pay most of the costs for raising the famous octuplets born recently near Los Angeles is provoking widespread indignation about what is often taken to be a fundamental human right?i.e., the right to reproduce ad infinitum.

The story might have raised eyebrows a year ago or five. But the fact that the 33-year-old single, unemployed mother?s plight is capturing headlines at the very moment when the State of California is in effect declaring bankruptcy (and laying off teachers and other state workers) not only provides grist for irate radio call-ins, it also highlights a profound shift taking place just beneath the surface of our collective awareness.

For most of the last century or two, economic growth has lifted all boats and temporarily increased Earth?s effective carrying capacity. Though the human population was growing relentlessly and at an unprecedented rate, few worried: every year there were more jobs, more opportunities, new careers. The pie was expanding, so the fact that there were always more people at the table was perceived as a plus. With more folks to talk to, life was becoming richer! Whatever area of skill you might be interested in, you could see records being broken, unheard-of achievements being made: there were better pianists and violinists than anyone had ever heard before, better athletes than anyone had ever seen, more brilliant mathematicians, surgeons?you name it?just because there were so many people competing with one another to develop excellence in their areas of expertise. What a time to be alive!

Now suddenly the game has changed. The pie has stopped getting bigger. As more people arrive at the table, everyone nervously eyes the remaining crumbs, anxious to avert a free-for-all but also keen to avoid being left out.

Welcome to the post-peak economic meltdown!

A lot is going to change due to the fact that we have reached the end of economic growth as we?ve known it. One non-trivial item concerns our attitude toward population.

Environmentalists like Paul Ehrlich have for decades been pointing out the obvious truism that the Earth can support only so many humans, and that the more of us there are, the more likely we are to undermine our planetary life-support systems, perhaps eventually triggering a humanitarian as well as an ecological crisis of apocalyptic dimensions.

Some listened; most did not. Efforts were made world-wide to reduce fertility through family planning; in China a one-child policy successfully reduced (but failed to end) population growth. However, on the whole our species continued to pursue its opportunities for expansion, and our numbers continued to grow (current total: 6.7 billion and counting).

Without more cheap energy, without cheap credit, and without economic growth, feelings will change. Are changing. Fewer people will want to bring a large family into the world knowing that economic opportunities are dwindling?but some will still do so. Attitudes toward parenthood are deep-seated, culturally sensitive, and controversial. But they are not immutable.

Here?s the rub: Unless previous beliefs about the sacredness of unlimited fertility (and the corresponding proof-of-masculinity afforded by the siring of many offspring) can be openly questioned and honestly discussed in these new circumstances, the cognitive dissonance between long-held beliefs and deep-seated biological urges on one hand, and the painful awareness of ecological and economic limits on the other, is likely to lead to a kind of societal explosion that will take the forms of heightened demographic competition and intercultural violence.

It doesn?t have to be that way. The discussion about the octuplets now taking place in the popular media is a good thing if it can help us collectively process new information and let go of old thinking. The point is not to blame the single mom; the point is to use this current news trivium as a mirror by which to see ourselves and reassess and change what we observe.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Any hard limit on human population is wholly unknown by anybody. I'm sure the world could do more than it has now. Afterall, the US with a population of 300M probably eats enough extra food to keep 100M going if not everybody here looked like a prize sow at the county fair.

Further, nobody can know what technology will bring out that we don't have more. Growing pains with alternative tech do not mean it's doomed or we're going to all run out of energy. The pie does get better and it also changes.

To sum, that article insinuates a lot but doesn't really commit to anything, because the author has a point to make but no convincing way to make it.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
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I've read in biology class that the population of the world is expected to level off in 2050 anyways.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Afterall, the US with a population of 300M probably eats enough extra food to keep 100M going if not everybody here looked like a prize sow at the county fair.

Well I would argue that the quality of food people put into their bodies is horrible. People aren't really feeding themselves. This will continue to spiral downwards unless you are willing and able to spend money on real food.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Any hard limit on human population is wholly unknown by anybody. I'm sure the world could do more than it has now. Afterall, the US with a population of 300M probably eats enough extra food to keep 100M going if not everybody here looked like a prize sow at the county fair.

Further, nobody can know what technology will bring out that we don't have more. Growing pains with alternative tech do not mean it's doomed or we're going to all run out of energy. The pie does get better and it also changes.

To sum, that article insinuates a lot but doesn't really commit to anything, because the author has a point to make but no convincing way to make it.

Should we put future technologies at risk for todays enjoyment and gains? For example, there could be some new technology to lift us into a a new golden age that we have not yet discovered but due to potential resource depletion we never get a chance to pursue the technology.

Thats really the point the author is trying to make. As you say population limits are unknown to anyone. But sometimes staying the course is not the right answer. In the case of the article he focuses on energy limitations through crude depletion. Whether a cheap, abundant and portable energy source exists to offset oil is anybodys guess so I wont say that is or is not the problem as it pertains to this argument but to think natural resources are infinite seems the wrong mindset to take.

At what point do we as a species begin to control our growth and development in harmony with our planets resouce availability, or should we simply let nature take its course?
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: TallBill
I've read in biology class that the population of the world is expected to level off in 2050 anyways.

The bigger issue, I think, isnt so much the worlds population as it is living within the planets means to support us. As it stands whether the population is 500 million to a billion or 10 billion is a moot point, we are using resources faster then we can replace them. Or rather, we have the potential to.

As it stands now resource pricing and availbility is controlled strictly through free market balances (Usually anyways). When demand rises for a certain commodity so does the price until a balance is reached. But this mindset and business model is driven from the standpoint of unlimited availability. At some point a ceiling is reached where no matter the price or demand there simply is none available.

Should we let the free market take its course and hope that some day in the future we have the means to harvest asteroids and planets for resources, or should we as a species take an approach that we should have the means to replace a resource before needlessly consuming it all?
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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specop I'm confused. I would never take you for an environmentalist. This type of thinking isn't really new. In fact this is so far left that it might appeal to those on the very right :)
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
specop I'm confused. I would never take you for an environmentalist. This type of thinking isn't really new. In fact this is so far left that it might appeal to those on the very right :)

I'm a hunter. By nature I'm an environmentalist, I have to be. No environment, no place to hunt and fish. Without proper management of the natural resources in question (land, fish, game) I would not be able to pursue one of my hobbies.

Funny how things come around sometimes isnt it. :)

That and I'm damned tired of talking about democrats and republicans. :p
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I'd be more inclined to think that a mass virus/infection of some sort would come through and wipe out chunks of population before the "earth" ever hit it's limits.

Many other species see some sort of natural population control from disease when their numbers get too high for the area they populate.

Food isn't a problem. Just about any "1st world" country probably throws away enough left overs to feed the rest of the starving population. Obviously land mass isn't a problem, there's millions upon millions of acres in the US alone that is unpopulated.

In regards to resources, there's a lot of stuff that we could be doing, but it's not financially viable to do it. Well, when you run out of fresh water, or oil, or any other valuable resource nescessity is the mother of all inventions. We'll figure out some way to renew, reproduce, or retreive. It'll just take money and the need for it.

The amount of food, water, and other natural resources (wood, ores, ect) is truely sickening. When forced to ration and be responsible, the amount of extra bodies that we could support would be staggering.

One average American probably burns through 10x the amount of food and various other natural resources that somebody in a third world country. It's pretty sickening how wasteful we are.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
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While there may be no shortage of open land in the US - there are certainly shortages of land, food, fresh water, and other natural resources in many other parts of the world.

At some point, I'd imagine there would be a series of wars over these resources if we ever get to the tipping point, but I don't think we are close to that point yet.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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Originally posted by: NeoV
While there may be no shortage of open land in the US - there are certainly shortages of land, food, fresh water, and other natural resources in many other parts of the world.

At some point, I'd imagine there would be a series of wars over these resources if we ever get to the tipping point, but I don't think we are close to that point yet.

I still contend that food and resources aren't the problem. It just takes money, time, and effort to supply them.

Just look at Las Vegas and Phoenix. Two cities that have absolutely zero ability to self sustain without serious redirection of natural water. They can't grow enough food there to sustain the population so it has to be trucked in. But people there are willing to pay for it so they survive.

There's nothing physically stopping this from happening in many parts of the world. It's just a mater of money, interest, and political factors manipulating and controlling populations.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
81
Overpopulation would likely lead to war which would solve the problem of overpopulation.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
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Originally posted by: NeoV
While there may be no shortage of open land in the US - there are certainly shortages of land, food, fresh water, and other natural resources in many other parts of the world.

At some point, I'd imagine there would be a series of wars over these resources if we ever get to the tipping point, but I don't think we are close to that point yet.

I think that you have identified the overpopulation safety-valve: war. As resources dwindle, different peoples will fight over them. Back before industrialization, this was quite common. However, with the advent of new technologies that allow us to better extract or use said resources, the "overpopulation" level/bar has been raised. However, with steady (or even exponential) population growth, even this bar will eventually be reached. You can't say exactly where that point is yet, but postulating that it exists isn't a big logical leap.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
specop I'm confused. I would never take you for an environmentalist. This type of thinking isn't really new. In fact this is so far left that it might appeal to those on the very right :)

I'm a hunter. By nature I'm an environmentalist, I have to be. No environment, no place to hunt and fish. Without proper management of the natural resources in question (land, fish, game) I would not be able to pursue one of my hobbies.

Funny how things come around sometimes isnt it. :)

That and I'm damned tired of talking about democrats and republicans. :p

Well, I applaud that sort of open-minded thinking. Getting too mired in party politics has the side effect of dumbing-down one's ability to rationally look at an issue without undue influence from blowhards on both sides.

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
I have a book from 1930's that states a world of decay, anarchy, starving people and war if the population ever reached 6 billion. It stated the US would fall into anarchy as people starved to death. Here we are, the fattest nation on earth :laugh:

Alot of new technologies are making the ceiling pretty high.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,732
10,043
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Originally posted by: Specop 007
Knowing this should we take steps to curb population growth?

First step would be to curb immigration instead of allowing it to continue out of control. We can decide to stop adding more people to the table, to save more pie for ourselves.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Knowing this should we take steps to curb population growth?

First step would be to curb immigration instead of allowing it to continue out of control. We can decide to stop adding more people to the table, to save more pie for ourselves.

We cant curb immigration because we lack any kind of immigration policy in this country. Besides immigration isnt the issue, illegal immigration is.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
We need to start neutering all those hicks, especially that woman that has 12 kids. They're stealing our share of the pie. How the hell can we survive if every mouth breeds 12 more hungry monsters into the world.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Afterall, the US with a population of 300M probably eats enough extra food to keep 100M going if not everybody here looked like a prize sow at the county fair.

Well I would argue that the quality of food people put into their bodies is horrible. People aren't really feeding themselves. This will continue to spiral downwards unless you are willing and able to spend money on real food.
I think you're wrong. In first-world countries, people are MUCH more aware of the food they eat than they were 30 years ago. Did our parents worry about saturated fats, trans fats, and simple carbohydrates? Why do people drink so much more bottled water now (however misguidedly) than in generations past? High fiber, low sodium, organic, and antioxidants weren't even part of the vocabulary a few decades ago.

People are living longer than ever, and a part of the reason is that people are eating higher-quality foods than ever before.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,866
3,297
136
Originally posted by: TallBill
I've read in biology class that the population of the world is expected to level off in 2050 anyways.

i recall being taught that global population is represented by a bell curve and that 'leveling off' is not a factor.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,028
4,653
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Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Well I would argue that the quality of food people put into their bodies is horrible. People aren't really feeding themselves. This will continue to spiral downwards unless you are willing and able to spend money on real food.
I think you're wrong. In first-world countries, people are MUCH more aware of the food they eat than they were 30 years ago. Did our parents worry about saturated fats, trans fats, and simple carbohydrates? Why do people drink so much more bottled water now (however misguidedly) than in generations past? High fiber, low sodium, organic, and antioxidants weren't even part of the vocabulary a few decades ago.

People are living longer than ever, and a part of the reason is that people are eating higher-quality foods than ever before.
You both are right. Nutrition is getting better and worse. Information is getting around, but so is misinformation. Science is making foods healthier and less healthy. For example, being worried about trans fat is good and new science proves it. But 100 years ago, trans fats didn't exist because it was science that created these unnatural fats. We are eating better additives, but we have left behind the whole foods that didn't need additives. When was the last time you ate barley (drinking it doesn't count)? Probably never.

The result overall is a bifurcation. Yes, there are exceptions, but as a general rule, those who are well off financially eat well and take lots of supplements. They have fresh fruits and vegetables and often take multivitamins that they don't need since they eat the fruit and vegetables. Then you have the poor who eat 10 cent ramen noodles or splurge for 30 cent macaroni and cheese. The poor rarely take multivitamins, even though their bodies desperately need the nutrients.

There is a ceiling on human population. But that ceiling is movable. I truely think that war and disease will be the more important caps--far before adequate food supply is an issue.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
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forcibly limiting population growth or enacting a law fining people for doing so is simply wrong, and I believe its draconian. Advocating have less children and improving people's lives will naturally lead to less children. For married couples: discussing family planning, encouraging the use of condoms (because sex is largely a pleasurable act as opposed to be strictly for procreation) and other forms of contraceptive is better. Let people decide on their own. Most of population growth is not in first world nations --> it is in the third world where having plenty of children is also seen as having 'economic capital' because their conditions around them suck and having children is a form of insurance; the more you have, the more that may survive and help you later.

War has been cited as an acceptable cap for population growth. Unless we go back to WW2 style (and earlier war), war is not a feasible method for population caps because the goal, right now, isn't to kill them as much as possible. Even though I detest the Israeli government, they are barely putting a dent in the Palestinian Population. The sum of the deaths over 20 years could probably be made up by a few months of births...if it is even that long. If you are crazy enough to advocate war as a valid method to limit the population, you need to be prepared to unleash blind slaughter on MILLIONS at a time. And in that case, you are probably just affecting a local area --> be prepared to literally go to every major population center and unleash the culling. As much as I am sorry for our soldier, 4-5000 soldier casualties in Iraq does not do anything to put a dent in the US population.
Disease...I can buy...for places whose sanitation really sucks. This is why basic sanitation improvements does wonders for population growth.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
Originally posted by: shira
I think you're wrong. In first-world countries, people are MUCH more aware of the food they eat than they were 30 years ago. Did our parents worry about saturated fats, trans fats, and simple carbohydrates? Why do people drink so much more bottled water now (however misguidedly) than in generations past? High fiber, low sodium, organic, and antioxidants weren't even part of the vocabulary a few decades ago.

People are living longer than ever, and a part of the reason is that people are eating higher-quality foods than ever before.

But the lower middle class lower class aren't eating as healthy because of cost. If you look at europe, they spend probably 7% more then we do as a whole on their food. But i do agree, we have come a LONG way.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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Originally posted by: RU482
time to restart the eugenics machine. It's been a good 65 yrs or so

real numbers now , not phony government numbers. At present rate of growth, World population will more than double in forty years, Because that years % includes last years births % and the real numbers are staggering. Same with consumption % increase over forty years . Is staggering. Marshal law is the only way they can stop that part of it. Thats not what their worried about, Something else going on . Those 300 camps they built prove it.