Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[fastandfurious6]

what's sorano? Gorgon is just the classic rebrand with 0.1ghz increase lol

 

[StefanR5R]

Sorano is a rumored successor of Siena (EPYC 8004) with Zen 5c cores, otherwise specced like Siena: ≤64 cores, ≤225 W cTDP, socket SP6. To be launched any day now™.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

This has nothing to do with DRAM speeds and everything to do with AMD being cheap and chopping tf outta their SRAM allotments in client.

Again:

It's only bad news if it means performance regression.

 

[StefanR5R]

Chester Lam of Chips and Cheese published two related pieces last month,

Evaluating the Infinity Cache in AMD Strix Halo,​

Strix Halo’s Memory Subsystem: Tackling iGPU Challenges.​

Not having the MALL cache would surely cut into performance — of (i)GPU workloads, but secondarily also of CPU workloads while an iGPU workload runs concurrently. The effects cannot be quantified outside of AMD's labs though because 3rd parties apparently don't have access to a simple on-and-off switch for the MALL cache.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

Chester Lam of Chips and Cheese published two related pieces last month,

Evaluating the Infinity Cache in AMD Strix Halo,​

Strix Halo’s Memory Subsystem: Tackling iGPU Challenges.​

Not having the MALL cache would surely cut into performance — of (i)GPU workloads, but secondarily also of CPU workloads while an iGPU workload runs concurrently. The effects cannot be quantified outside of AMD's labs though because 3rd parties apparently don't have access to a simple on-and-off switch for the MALL cache.

Strix Halo's iGPU is RDNA3.5, meaning it won't get the larger L2 nor the universal compression system of RDNA5.


Honestly, @adroc_thurston 's suggestion that RDNA5 GPUs are all going to suck in gaming because "AMD doesn't care about gamers anymore" is just old news that he's been repeating for ages and hasn't really happened.

Of course AMD doesn't care about gamers, they're B2B most and foremost. They care about their customers who order their chips. If Sony and Microsoft ordered solutions for gaming that uses RDNA5, then those chips will be good for gaming.

The RDNA4 -> RDNA5 transition is going to take advantage of GDDR7 which has a 50% boost in bandwidth over GDDR6. On top of that, there's a boost in L2 size, and then there's a new memory compression feature.
In the case of iGPUs for the smaller chips the difference will be even larger because there's a larger L2 and the memory compression feature on top of faster LPDDR5X or eventually LPDDR6. The PS6 Canis apparently doesn't have LPDDR6 but uses 192bit LPDDR5X.


So again, cutting down MALL is only a problem if there's nothing that alleviates its absence. As much as @adroc_thurston likes to pretend AMD is now Nvidia and tells all their clients for gaming chips to ah heck off (because they apparently refused one contract to make a semicustom for Valve under 10 million chips), that's just not the real world. AMD wants to maintain a healthy relationship with their clients outside the AI craze, and with good reason.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Honestly, @adroc_thurston 's suggestion that RDNA5 GPUs are all going to suck in gaming

How did you even get there.
Wait, don't answer. I'll mail you the meds.

The RDNA4 -> RDNA5 transition is going to take advantage of GDDR7 which has a 50% boost in bandwidth over GDDR6. On top of that, there's a boost in L2 size, and then there's a new memory compression feature.

It's a much smaller total caching package even for a part with 96 WGPs. Compression also has jack snot to do with it. More esoteric techniques are at play.

As much as @adroc_thurston likes to pretend AMD is now Nvidia and tells all their clients for gaming chips to ah heck off (because they apparently refused one contract to make a semicustom for Valve under 10 million chips),

They've also liquidated Ryzen Z (the handheld dingus) line.

AMD wants to maintain a healthy relationship with their clients outside the AI craze, and with good reason.

lmao dawg

 

[Josh128]

Chester Lam of Chips and Cheese published two related pieces last month,

Evaluating the Infinity Cache in AMD Strix Halo,​

Strix Halo’s Memory Subsystem: Tackling iGPU Challenges.​

Not having the MALL cache would surely cut into performance — of (i)GPU workloads, but secondarily also of CPU workloads while an iGPU workload runs concurrently. The effects cannot be quantified outside of AMD's labs though because 3rd parties apparently don't have access to a simple on-and-off switch for the MALL cache.

No MALL cache means Strix Halo would scarcely perform better in games than Strix Point. How that would affect running local AI workloads that can make use of Halos magic bullet (GPUs access to 96 or 128GB of system RAM), I dont know, but I suspect most local AI workloads are not bottlenecked by bandwidth like gaming is, so dropping the MALL may not really affect AMDs envisioned use case for Halo.

To that end, only a retard with more money than sense would ever buy a Halo system for gaming anyway, when you could easily build an entire upgradable PC for less money than the cheapest Halo prebuilt costs, so its a moot point anyway.

 

[adroc_thurston]

No MALL cache means Strix Halo would scarcely perform better in games than Strix Point.

Dawg it has 2x the offchip membw.

 

[Josh128]

Dawg it has 2x the offchip membw.

Its still only ~70% of what you get with GDDR7 with only half the bus width. Take away the MALL and gaming is going to take a crap.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Its still only ~70% of what you get with GDDR7 with only half the bus width

AMD ships like 18 or 20Gbps GDDR6 so the b/w delta would've been relatively tiny.

Take away the MALL and gaming is going to take a crap.

No, you're just gonna make it less efficient.

 

[StefanR5R]

Hmm, we came to this point from the question of whether or not -> Gorgon Point <- would get MALL$.

In order to answer whether (or rather: how much) Gorgon Point could benefit from MALL$, a Strix Halo computer with MALL-on-off switch and a dual-channel memory population could be useful as a test specimen.

However, in order to answer whether or not Gorgon Point will *get* a MALL$, we merely need to follow this line of thought:

Gorgon is just the classic rebrand with 0.1ghz increase lol

 

[DrMrLordX]

They've also liquidated Ryzen Z (the handheld dingus) line.

Wait, what? Is Z2E the last one we'll see?

 

[Joe NYC]

To that end, only a retard with more money than sense would ever buy a Halo system for gaming anyway, when you could easily build an entire upgradable PC for less money than the cheapest Halo prebuilt costs, so its a moot point anyway.

I think there could be a market for MiniPCs for gaming.

I am not the only one who thinks that. Valve / Steam also think that.

Not everyone wants to build their own DIY PCs and some people don't realize that they can go to a place like MicroCenter and MicroCenter can assemble a PC for them from their desired components.

IMO, Steam will likely be looking at one of the Zen 7 configurations with RDNA5 for their next MiniPC.

 

[jpiniero]

Wait, what? Is Z2E the last one we'll see?

They are just different cuts of existing products. I imagine they will continue.

Could be a place to dump busted NPU dies.

 

[jpiniero]

IMO, Steam will likely be looking at one of the Zen 7 configurations with RDNA5 for their next MiniPC.

I'd hate to think what a Zen 7 Halo SM would cost, if people are freaking out over the current specs price.

 

[adroc_thurston]

IMO, Steam will likely be looking at one of the Zen 7 configurations with RDNA5 for their next MiniPC.

Qualcomm

 

[poke01]

Qualcomm

Doesn’t MLID believe it will be AMD again?
For steam deck and machine

 

[Joe NYC]

I'd hate to think what a Zen 7 Halo SM would cost, if people are freaking out over the current specs price.

Is the price of the SteamMachine known? I haven't seen it mentioned.

I think that would be the target price for SteamMachine 2 as well, with some of the Lego pieces of MedusaHalo put together in one integrated CPU/GPU.

 

[Joe NYC]

Qualcomm

I wasn't talking about SteamDeck, but SteamMachine. But even with SteamDeck, I have doubts.

When Valve sees no one buys their Arm based VR headset, it will be partially a reflection of Arm based gaming.

And what does Qualcomm have (other than willingness to lose money) that AMD has, in terms of being able to come up with a handheld? After all, AMD is going to have something for both, hendheld XBox and hendheld PS6. How hard would it be to came up with either another derivative or to just resell one of those?

It seems like a fraction of resources vs. what Qualcomm would have to come up with.

 

[jpiniero]

Is the price of the SteamMachine known? I haven't seen it mentioned.

No but based upon Linus' comments, $600-$800. It's not going to be cheap like the Deck.

Halo would easily be over a grand.

 

[Joe NYC]

No but based upon Linus' comments, $600-$800.

Halo would easily be over a grand.

So, this would be for 16+8 GB GameMachine. We will see what the actual price will end up being.
Framework is selling 32 GB Strix Halo 8 core desktop for $1,099

If Valve could get the price to $999, it could be a viable option for a gaming MiniPC, and it is not really that far from the Framework price.

It did not happen this time, but next time (Steam Machine 2), the stars may be better aligned.

 

[jpiniero]

Even the PS6 is probably going to be $700, and that's with a die that's likely much smaller than Strix Halo.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Even the PS6 is probably going to be $700, and that's with a die that's likely much smaller than Strix Halo.

It's N3p.
$$$ pay up

 

[adroc_thurston]

Halo would easily be over a grand.

A hacked 6+32 part with 32G L5x could've sold below that easily.

 

[Josh128]

I think there could be a market for MiniPCs for gaming.

I am not the only one who thinks that. Valve / Steam also think that.

Not everyone wants to build their own DIY PCs and some people don't realize that they can go to a place like MicroCenter and MicroCenter can assemble a PC for them from their desired components.

IMO, Steam will likely be looking at one of the Zen 7 configurations with RDNA5 for their next MiniPC.

They dont have to. They can buy a prebuilt PC at Amazon or Best Buy that will outrun a top Halo minipc by a mile in gaming for less money. It makes no sense at Halos price point. If it was only $400? Then sure, yeah.

This will run circles around the cheapest full CU count Halo mini PC you can buy, and do it for a lot less money, lol. Be realistic man, not idealistic. You'd literally have to have more money than sense to by a Halo mini PC over the CyberPower for gaming, and you'd still be slower.