Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[igor_kavinski]

Spoiler: PART 2

 

[igor_kavinski]

Spoiler: PART 3

 

[Josh128]

Spoiler: PART 3

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The problem with this review is that they didnt show a baseline 9700X @ stock w/EXPO vs optimized 9700X vs 7800X3D. It seems almost nobody reviewing CPUs remembers the scientific method.

 

[SolidQ]

AMD Turin: 5th Gen EPYC Deep Dive​

AMD's Turin: 5th Gen EPYC Launched

5 Gigahertz Server CPUs

chipsandcheese.com

Also Youtube version

 

[Joe NYC]

Dan McNamara said "no plans"

That is strange. I did notice it was not mentioned. I wonder why?

Just last week, there was a cloud provider that standardized their new server purchases on Genoa-X.

 

[Seba]

Kinda interesting video with a different take on Zen4 vs Zen5

Waste of time.

The "worse" CPU is paired with slower RAM and at stock settings.

Towards the end of the video he shows both CPUs at stock and with the same RAM and then the situation is reversed.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Waste of time.

I think the point of the video is, if you can't find the 7800X3D at a good price, the 9700X with DDR5-6400 and optimum BIOS settings can certainly suffice for most games.

 

[Joe NYC]

Some analysis of leaked 9800x3d and 9950x3d benchmarks. Nothing really new:

 

[MS_AT]

I think the point of the video is, if you can't find the 7800X3D at a good price, the 9700X with DDR5-6400 and optimum BIOS settings can certainly suffice for most games.

I would say that 9700x can suffice for most games with sensible Expo profile that will not take hours to properly validate stability

 

[IEC]

This generation is looking like a skip for gamers with Zen 5% and ARL 2.85%. That's probably overly generous for both of them since most gamers don't even have RTX 4080 level GPUs.

We may see more of a gap once the RTX 5090 is out but since that would affect exactly 0.05% of the gaming market I don't see that materially changing my recommendation. MEH

 

[poke01]

I don’t think users on Zen4 need to upgrade anyway to any Zen5 product for gaming.


Same for GPU, the latest RDNA3 and Lovelace cards with 12GB+ VRAM are enough for the next few years. I won’t be upgrading till Zen6 and UDNA2/RTX 6000 release. By then we should be N3E/P or even N2.

PC hardware for gaming is stagnant now and every best PC component right now is enough for the next 4-5 years anyway. The games are made for Zen2 hardware, so until the PS6 comes there’s really no point to upgrading in a sustainable sense.

 

[DrMrLordX]

This generation is looking like a skip for gamers with Zen 5% and ARL 2.85%. That's probably overly generous for both of them since most gamers don't even have RTX 4080 level GPUs.

We may see more of a gap once the RTX 5090 is out but since that would affect exactly 0.05% of the gaming market I don't see that materially changing my recommendation. MEH

You haven't even seen the 9800X3D yet.

I don’t think users on Zen4 need to upgrade anyway to any Zen5 product for gaming.

Probably not, since 7800X3D in particular still seems to be among the fastest gaming CPUs out there. Arrow Lake isn't changing that in any case.

 

[OneEng2]

Basically confirms as everyone guessed that Zen 5 is a server first design. Desktop is just secondary.

Great move IMO. Go where the market is growing fastest and where the highest margins are. Makes perfect sense to me.

For once, Zen5 didn’t disappoint. Still, AMD isn’t trouncing Intel as badly as they used to, but that’s to be expected. Ampere got obliterated, though.
https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-epyc-9965-ampereone

GNR got trounced badly enough to keep it from getting the margins it likely needed to support it while Turin is going to be able to charge premium prices.

What competition ? AMD is now totally leaves Xeons out in the cold in power/perf and plain performance. At any level in server, they are totally superior.

Worse, Intel's 288 core idea is going to be God awful expensive for licensing cost .... lack of foresight again by Intel.

Few points:

* Turin with that 8000+ RAM would surely shine even more. Too bad AMD went the cheap road again.
* 400W TDP sounds horrific but this headroom allows to get those many core gains
* AFAK AMD slides did not compare to GNR but still Turin defeats it rather easily
* Does anybody remember those slides presenting challenging routing of Rome's 8 CCDs? Today Turin got 16 of those...

Nothing wrong with the "cheap road" IMO. Turin is besting GNR on a less expensive system.

The Turin Dense (N3E and those 16 core CCDs you mentioned) has its place I am sure; however, keep in mind that many (most) of the big applications that run in the data center have a per core license.... so Turin D will have to fit in a certain type of system where the additional cost makes sense over the normal Turin (which is built on the less expensive N4P node).

It does win by a decent margin but some of this is due to GNR issues. The 2P scaling for GNR is just 1.2x, whereas for Turin it’s ~1.4x-1.5X, same is true with earlier Xeon like Emerald Rapids so it’s something uniquely broken with GNR at the moment.

This set of benchmarks also included NAMD, whereas the original 6980P review didn’t include it because it’s currently bugged on GNR (unless using oneAPI), this is why the geomean for GNR was reduced by 10% in this comparison compared to the day 1 reviews. So the bugged NAMD benches drags down the geomean for 1P as well as the meager 1.2X scaling for 2P exaggerating things too.

If you compare Epyc 9755 and Xeon 6980P in 1P configuration, at the moment Turin has a lead of 18.3% in the geomean of tests (this is with the bugged NAMD & miniBUDE results).

Michael Larabel’s comments below:

I have heard you mention this before (in another thread). When did it become OK for any data center CPU to have issues at launch, rather on 2 months after launch? This, by itself, is a big issue at Intel. What is going on at team Blue anyway?

While I agree that there are clearly issues with GNR, first, there shouldn't be .... and second, even IF the issues you point out are patched, it doesn't look like (from the benchmarks from multiple sites) GNR will be competitive to Turin in the lions share of workloads.

AVX-512 Performance With 256-bit vs. 512-bit Data Path For AMD EPYC 9005 CPUs Review - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Turin has an option for turning off full 512-bit data execution... but from Phoronix's testing, I am not sure why you would do that. Most of the time it was better on PPW even.

I don't know why anyone would want to do this either. The majority of the cost of a server IS NOT in the hardware, but rather the per core software licenses (it isn't even close). You really want to get the most from each core ..... since you pay for it.

 

[OneEng2]

This generation is looking like a skip for gamers with Zen 5% and ARL 2.85%. That's probably overly generous for both of them since most gamers don't even have RTX 4080 level GPUs.

We may see more of a gap once the RTX 5090 is out but since that would affect exactly 0.05% of the gaming market I don't see that materially changing my recommendation. MEH

Is gaming really that much of a money maker for either of these companies? Seems to me like they should be focused on data center FIRST, then desktop replacement laptops, then thin and light laptops ..... and then, and only then, Desktop gaming. So little of the CPU market (and profit) is in desktop today. Hard to see why Intel or AMD would focus on it. Maybe I am missing something?

 

[poke01]

Seems to me like they should be focused on data center FIRST, then desktop replacement laptops, then thin and light laptops ..... and then, and only then, Desktop gaming. So little of the CPU market (and profit) is in desktop today. Hard to see why Intel or AMD would focus on it. Maybe I am missing something?

No you got it almost right, Its DC, ultrabooks, then Desktop replacement laptops. Thin and light laptops far outweigh DTRs and gaming laptops cause home use and office workers buy them a lot more and very last gaming desktop CPU/GPU

 

[poke01]

With Zen5, ARM has near 0% chance of competing with x86 now in the server space. I can only imagine what Zen6 N2/A16 EYPC will be like.

EDIT: ok maybe not near 0% but most likely ARM and x86 will coexist in server space

 

[DavidC1]

Is gaming really that much of a money maker for either of these companies?

Of course it matters. Gaming equipment is expensive. It's lot less volume but the margins are far higher. Would they want to purposely avoid it? No.

They don't have a good gaming chip because they weren't able to make one, not some focus away from it. Yes there might be to a point, but marketing focusing to power efficiency is because they don't have anything else to talk about.

Same reason they talked about "Internet accelerator" and gave you a CD for speeding up internet or something in the P3 and P4 days. Because they didn't have much other than fluff.

2 years ago, it was Alderlake that stopped Intel's horrible financials from looking worse than it is. It did well on desktop, so it propped up client enough. Notebooks dropped quite a bit.

 

[Thunder 57]

Of course it matters. Gaming equipment is expensive. It's lot less volume but the margins are far higher. Would they want to purposely avoid it? No.

They don't have a good gaming chip because they weren't able to make one, not some focus away from it. Yes there might be to a point, but marketing focusing to power efficiency is because they don't have anything else to talk about.

Same reason they talked about "Internet accelerator" and gave you a CD for speeding up internet or something in the P3 and P4 days. Because they didn't have much other than fluff.

2 years ago, it was Alderlake that stopped Intel's horrible financials from looking worse than it is. It did well on desktop, so it propped up client enough. Notebooks dropped quite a bit.

Well, with the P4 the Internet was supposed to be so fast that when you went to a website it would just "burst" on to your screen. I don't recall a CD for "speeding up" your Internet though. That sounds like the "add RAM with our app" scam from way back when. Just looked it up. SoftRAM.

 

[DavidC1]

Well, with the P4 the Internet was supposed to be so fast that when you went to a website it would just "burst" on to your screen. I don't recall a CD for "speeding up" your Internet though. That sounds like the "add RAM with our app" scam from way back when. Just looked it up. SoftRAM.

I can't remember, it's either P3 or P4. It had some applications showcasing applications. I had one.

 

[yuri69]

The majority of the cost of a server IS NOT in the hardware, but rather the per core software licenses

Uhm, what kind of software requires such expensive licensing model nowadays?

Corporate stuff like VMWare, MS SQL/BI(?), or Oracle stuff and niche engineering SW fit but still, the OSS stack is stronger than ever.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It had some applications showcasing applications. I had one.

Probably something containing applications/games with SSE2 support. I remember one kayaking game that would prominently display "Runs best on Pentium 4".

Intel's blurb: https://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/2001/20011024comp_a.htm

 

[yottabit]

Uhm, what kind of software requires such expensive licensing model nowadays?

Corporate stuff like VMWare, MS SQL/BI(?), or Oracle stuff and niche engineering SW fit but still, the OSS stack is stronger than ever.

You mean I wasn’t supposed to be paying per-core for nginx and apache all these years? I’ve been swindled!

 

[Josh128]

No you got it almost right, Its DC, ultrabooks, then Desktop replacement laptops. Thin and light laptops far outweigh DTRs and gaming laptops cause home use and office workers buy them a lot more and very last gaming desktop CPU/GPU

OEM desktop PC for office use like Dell, HP, that dont even use discrete GPUs also far outnumber DIY desktop. This is why AMD doesnt even care about dropping desktop pricing too much, they will just reallocate the silicon to EPYC and have more volume there.

 

[OneEng2]

Yea there's probably an impact due to that. They said 32/72% number in ST

No you got it almost right, Its DC, ultrabooks, then Desktop replacement laptops. Thin and light laptops far outweigh DTRs and gaming laptops cause home use and office workers buy them a lot more and very last gaming desktop CPU/GPU

Thought I saw thin and light at 30-40% of the laptop market.

Of course it matters. Gaming equipment is expensive. It's lot less volume but the margins are far higher. Would they want to purposely avoid it? No.

They don't have a good gaming chip because they weren't able to make one, not some focus away from it. Yes there might be to a point, but marketing focusing to power efficiency is because they don't have anything else to talk about.

Same reason they talked about "Internet accelerator" and gave you a CD for speeding up internet or something in the P3 and P4 days. Because they didn't have much other than fluff.

2 years ago, it was Alderlake that stopped Intel's horrible financials from looking worse than it is. It did well on desktop, so it propped up client enough. Notebooks dropped quite a bit.

Desktop gaming may well be higher margin, but it is a dwindling part of the market. Margins aren't what they used to be either.

Uhm, what kind of software requires such expensive licensing model nowadays?

Corporate stuff like VMWare, MS SQL/BI(?), or Oracle stuff and niche engineering SW fit but still, the OSS stack is stronger than ever.

Enough. Ask chatGPT and you will get a good long list.

OEM desktop PC for office use like Dell, HP, that dont even use discrete GPUs also far outnumber DIY desktop. This is why AMD doesnt even care about dropping desktop pricing too much, they will just reallocate the silicon to EPYC and have more volume there.

And vastly more margin!

 

[yuri69]

Enough. Ask chatGPT and you will get a good long list.

Ugh, the list consists of the good ol' Oracle, IBM, MS, VMware, and SAP (which allows memory-based licensing).