Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[Abwx]

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-V3-3-in-1-review-the-first-ever-Windows-tablet-with-AMD-s-Hawk-Point-APU-aka-the-AMD-Ryzen-7-8840U.829081.0.html#toc-5

sigh, AMD Hawk Point sucks for tablets, this tablet also has a fan and has heating problems despite having enough heatpipes. I heard this song and dance before but Zen 5 really needs to excel in tablets/thin n lights.

The idle usage is 10W! and battery life is pathetic.

It is not, because on a 51Wh battery it last 8.8h when idle, this amount to 5.8W idle, so the issue is both the implementation as well as the power adapter that seems to have an ineficient power factor correction circuitry because power at the main is about 15W when idle.

 

[poke01]

It is not, because on a 51Wh battery it last 8.8h when idle, that amount to 5.8W idle, so the issue is both the implementation a well as the power adapter that seems to have an ineficient power factor correction circuitry because power at the main is about 15W when idle.

I do think its is on the low side for a tablet on a 51Wh battery. Hawk Point wasn't the right choice here. I would say anthing over 15hrs on idle is good.

 

[Abwx]

I do think its is on the low side for a tablet on a 51Wh battery. Hawk Point wasn't the right choice here. I would say anthing over 15hrs on idle is good.

With a comparable battery and a 7840U, wich is basically the same APU, a Lenovo laptop last 12h on Wifi websurfing, not just idling, so the bios or power management used by Framework is somewhat not up to the device, or possibly a power hungry screen.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14-G4-AMD-Laptop-Review-Ryzen-power-in-the-compact-ThinkPad.786912.0.html

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

With a comparable battery and a 7840U, wich is basically the same APU, a Lenovo laptop last 12h on Wifi websurfing, not just idling, so the bios or power management used by Framework is somewhat not up to the device, or possibly a power hungry screen.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14-G4-AMD-Laptop-Review-Ryzen-power-in-the-compact-ThinkPad.786912.0.html

Kind of weird they measured an average idle of 5.6 watts then go on to show 12h battery life in a web surfing (not idle) test, which even if it was the same power consumption as idle at 5.6W it would require a 67Wh battery.

 

[Abwx]

Kind of weird they measured an average idle of 5.6 watts then go on to show 12h battery life in a web surfing (not idle) test, which even if it was the same power consumption as idle at 5.6W it would require a 67Wh battery.

It goes down to 3.3W, and dont forget the adaptator losses as very few have below 3W idle power, that s the typical power drained by a quality AC adaptator when unplugged from the laptop, so the numbers makes sense, BTW best 70W adaptator i had drained 1.8W idling, and that s after i moded its power factor correction circuity.

 

[poke01]

With a comparable battery and a 7840U, wich is basically the same APU, a Lenovo laptop last 12h on Wifi websurfing, not just idling, so the bios or power management used by Framework is somewhat not up to the device, or possibly a power hungry screen.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-T14-G4-AMD-Laptop-Review-Ryzen-power-in-the-compact-ThinkPad.786912.0.html

yeah thats a much better result.

 

[Markfw]

yeah thats a much better result.

"ThinkPad T14 Gen 4 AMD." Isn't this a Zen 5 thread ??????

 

[poke01]

"ThinkPad T14 Gen 4 AMD." Isn't this a Zen 5 thread ??????

it is. I will move the topic over to Zen 4 thread.

 

[Gideon]

never.

Ok, what happens to gaming focused CPUs then, starting from Zen 6 and onwards?

You mentioned that Zen 6 desktop is only getting same silicon as mobile (aka APUs).

I'd be very surprised (to put it mildly) if AMD kills its popular high-cache gaming CPU lineup. Especially as Intel is rumored to respond with similar SKUs at some point.

So if L3 V-cache chiplets are EOL, this can only mean System Level Cache (SLC). On premium parts that could be on a chiplet *below* the cores, as is done on MI300 and (probably not but) possibly on Strix Halo.

So which is it for Zen 6?

1. V-cache will remain on high end chiplet parts
2. Will be replaced by MALL of similar size
3. AMD kills off the entire (v-cache) consumer segment

 

[uzzi38]

Ok, what happens to gaming focused CPUs then, starting from Zen 6 and onwards?

You mentioned that Zen 6 desktop is only getting same silicon as mobile (aka APUs).

I'd be very surprised (to put it mildly) if AMD kills its popular high-cache gaming CPU lineup. Especially as Intel is rumored to respond with similar SKUs at some point.

So if L3 V-cache chiplets are EOL, this can only mean System Level Cache (SLC). On premium parts that could be on a chiplet *below* the cores, as is done on MI300 and (probably not but) possibly on Strix Halo.

So which is it for Zen 6?

1. V-cache will remain on high end chiplet parts
2. Will be replaced by MALL of similar size
3. AMD kills off the entire (v-cache) consumer segment

You're looking at the wrong mobile part.

Strix Halo is probably a better glimpse as to where the future of desktop lies. Albeit I imagine a future desktop part would run a much smaller IOD with a much smaller iGPU than STX-Halo will have, the fundamentals will probably be the same.

 

[leoneazzurro]

You're looking at the wrong mobile part.

Strix Halo is probably a better glimpse as to where the future of desktop lies. Albeit I imagine a future desktop part would run a much smaller IOD with a much smaller iGPU than STX-Halo will have, the fundamentals will probably be the same.

I think Zen6 server version will have extra cache versions for sure. Desktop, it depends on how competitive Intel will be. But, with a more "exotic" package they probably can add cache in different ways, not only stacked on top (which limits the thermals). If they need additional cache, they may stack on the bottom or as an additional tile.

 

[Gideon]

You're looking at the wrong mobile part.

Strix Halo is probably a better glimpse as to where the future of desktop lies. Albeit I imagine a future desktop part would run a much smaller IOD with a much smaller iGPU than STX-Halo will have, the fundamentals will probably be the same.

Yeah that's what i thought.

I think Zen6 server version will have extra cache versions for sure. Desktop, it depends on how competitive Intel will be. But, with a more "exotic" package they probably can add cache in different ways, not only stacked on top (which limits the thermals). If they need additional cache, they may stack on the bottom or as an additional tile.

Hopefully we do get the cache below the compute chiplet, as that would still keep it physically close and should allow the CPU cores to clock a bit higher than they do on the V-cache parts.

 

[Joe NYC]

You're looking at the wrong mobile part.

Strix Halo is probably a better glimpse as to where the future of desktop lies. Albeit I imagine a future desktop part would run a much smaller IOD with a much smaller iGPU than STX-Halo will have, the fundamentals will probably be the same.

One thing I am surprised about is that AMD is not leveraging 6nm node for IO, cache and memory controllers in Strix Halo. There would be less of a concern about the size of SLC.

Maybe AMD is not counting on a huge volume of sales to economize on die costs... Or, perhaps, the power overhead might still be too much for a mobile part, even if it is a fanout / RDL.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

One thing I am surprised about is that AMD is not leveraging 6nm node for IO, cache and memory controllers in Strix Halo. There would be less of a concern about the size of SLC.

Maybe AMD is not counting on a huge volume of sales to economize on die costs... Or, perhaps, the power overhead might still be too much for a mobile part, even if it is a fanout / RDL.

Why do you think that the IOD of Halo will not be 6nm? Is it already more or less confirmed to be N4 because of the iGPU part?

 

[Joe NYC]

Why do you think that the IOD of Halo will not be 6nm? Is it already more or less confirmed to be N4 because of the iGPU part?

iGPU is combined with IO, Memory controllers, SLC cache on one die (based on most rumors) and that one die is going to be either 4nm or 3nm.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Is it already more or less confirmed to be N4 because of the iGPU part?

no?

 

[adroc_thurston]

if amd wants, strix halo could have em, they could even switch to 8 3dvcache cores and 16 zen5c cores

no and no?
It uses a bespoke CCD made for itself. alone.

i would bet so, there isn't another io part, and usually io is paired with gpu in these cases, also that would help with ram oc in the future

a) the node.
b) you can't touch the DDR straps on -halo.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Some leakers have pointed out that the n4x node is not really happening, just n4p, which would be the same node

who

for the ddr straps, you most likely can, it's always a bios limitation, and smokeless have prove effective

You can't, the firmware blob just doesn't support it.

 

[adroc_thurston]

kepler if i remember correctly

well he has no idea.

lpddr5 has already been overclocked on handhelds that way

AMD won't provide the f/w blobs for that.
are you deaf?

 

[adroc_thurston]

i haven't read anyone needing firmware blobs to overclock ram on ddr or lpddr laptops

Oh wow. lmao.

so i'm not really sure what you are talking about

You really don't know how AMD SMUs and IMC fw init works huh.

you think you are better than kepler or other leakers

We're all good friends, kiddo.

what are you

good question.

bespoke amd worker that leaks stuff and likes weird anime songs

I don't even work with them directly.

 

[adroc_thurston]

i'll have fun overclocking the ram when it releases.

But you can't.

 

[FlameTail]

no and no?
It uses a bespoke CCD made for itself. alone.

Oooh. Is this the first time you are saying Strix Halo will have it's own unique CCDs?

 

[adroc_thurston]

Is this the first time you are saying Strix Halo will have it's own unique CCDs?

I've been saying that for over a year.
It's not news.
It always had it, was supposed to be shared with other strixes back when they were tiled.

 

[Joe NYC]

no and no?
It uses a bespoke CCD made for itself. alone.

It would be quite ironic if AMD goes so far as to create a new CCD and still fall short, by not releasing, what would be the best selling model, with single CCD + V-Cache.

 

[adroc_thurston]

what would be the best selling model, with single CCD + V-Cache.

it's a halo model, pay up.