Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

[DisEnchantment]

Speculate at will

 

[Fjodor2001]

No such thing as ARL-S 8321.

I never mentioned ARL-S 8321.

 

[Fjodor2001]

intel is dumping ht going forward. amd's design choice according to adrock thuston is that Zen will maintain 16 cores at the top end for now for zen 5 but zen 6 will include dense cores of the same type, these will have less cache but also have ht. Cores will increase with this zen 6 processor according to adrock a few hours ago.

Intel may top out at 24 or 32 cores and 24 or 32 threads. AMD may top out at 24 cores 48 threads and likely use less power and have less bugs than intel's novel approach.

Do you have any link to the source of all this information?

If source is only the forum user adrock_thuston, how do we know whether it's accurate? It's contradicting a lot of other source online. E.g. I've seen no source online saying Zen 5 will be 24C/48T for regular desktop. Instead all sources seem to say it maxes out at 16C.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I never mentioned ARL-S 8321.

8+32 is 8321 aka 8 big, 32 LITTLE GT1 graphics.

 

[Joe NYC]

Do you have any link to the source of all this information?

If source is only the forum user adrock_thuston, how do we know whether it's accurate? It's contradicting a lot of other source online. E.g. I've seen no source online saying Zen 5 will be 24C/48T for regular desktop. Instead all sources seem to say it maxes out at 16C.

It is just a conjecture, but based on the fact that AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet. The chiplets are interchangeable, so AMD can add one of each, potentially, for a specialized SKU.

Far easier to achieve than Intel having to tape out a new, monolithic 8+32 CPU chiplet - which you are assuming Intel will...

 

[A///]

Here are some recent sources mentioning 8P + 32E for desktop Arrow Lake:

Intel 15th Gen Arrow Lake CPUs to Feature up to 40 Cores, 2nm (20A) Process, and Foveros 3D Stacking [Rumor] | Hardware Times

A bunch of new (alleged) details regarding Intel’s 15th Gen Arrow Lake CPUs have surfaced. Right off the bat, we would like to highlight that the 14th Gen desktop family will solely comprise the Raptor Lake-S Refresh as Meteor Lake has been scrapped. Furthermore, Arrow Lake will form the 15th...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Intel Arrow Lake: everything we know about the 15th-gen chips

Intel Arrow Lake CPUs are launching in October. Here's everything we know about these next-gen processors so far.

www.digitaltrends.com

Intel's next-gen Panther Lake CPUs rumored to feature Cougar Cove architecture - VideoCardz.com

Intel Cougar Cove cores for Panther Lake According to Moore’s Law is Dead, Intel has developed a new core design that might end up in a future Core series CPUs. Meteor Lake and Raptor Lake Refresh Intel has introduced some changes to the roadmap of their client CPUs. It looks like the Meteor...

videocardz.com

Are you for real right now?

Hardware times is a joke of a rag. They're worse than wccftech.

Digital trends mentions they have nothing but...

We don’t have any raw specifications for Arrow Lake processors as of yet, but there have been some tantalizing rumors that we can consider.

And videocardz bases their crap on whatever hasan's rag aka wccftech publishes.

 

[A///]

Never said that.

I asked you if there would be more cores, you said yes.

 

[adroc_thurston]

AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet

That's for server.
Remember, post-Zen5 server and client diverge.

 

[A///]

It is just a conjecture, but based on the fact that AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet. The chiplets are interchangeable, so AMD can add one of each, potentially, for a specialized SKU.

Far easier to achieve than Intel having to tape out a new, monolithic 8+32 CPU chiplet - which you are assuming Intel will...

Rock never mentioned a 8+16 setup for zen either. You are the only one who keeps mentioning this.

 

[Fjodor2001]

It is just a conjecture, but based on the fact that AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet. The chiplets are interchangeable, so AMD can add one of each, potentially, for a specialized SKU.

Ok, so you're guessing there will be a Zen 5 desktop CPU with 1x8C Zen5 chiplet + 1x16C Zen5C chiplet, within same 170W TDP power budget as Zen4? Is there any source for that information?

Far easier to achieve than Intel having to tape out a new, monolithic 8+32 CPU chiplet - which you are assuming Intel will...

From what source do we know Arrow Lake desktop CPUs will be monolitic and not chiplets?

 

[adroc_thurston]

there will be a Zen 5 desktop CPU with 1x8C Zen5 chiplet + 1x16C Zen5C chiplet

No.

From what source do we know Arrow Lake desktop CPUs will be monolitic and not chiplets?

As in CPU tile is one hueg 8+32 ring with cores.
Either way why even care about stillborn products.

 

[Fjodor2001]

8+32 is 8321 aka 8 big, 32 LITTLE GT1 graphics.

No. The sources I linked to say 8P + 32E CPU cores for desktop Arrow Lake. Not 32 LITTLE GT1 graphics.

 

[Joe NYC]

This is my opinion (so take it for what it's worth) but Intel's problem isn't packaging. Both MTL/ARL will have the best packaging tech available for client products. They're not really behind in packaging - at all.

The interposers will do the job, but the cost of MTL may prevent it from being able to compete on the low end of the market.

And there may also be a capacity issue for Intel, in how many Intel can package:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1693981897309761657

 

[A///]

who wants to tell him the 8+32 he thinks is a fact was a guessed number spread out over 2 years ago when komachi initially found the raptorlake leaks on bapco? with it being a 8+16 part u nlike the 8+8 part of alder it was assumed each new generation would get a +8 e core addition. mtl-s was allegedly a 8+24 part. kind of like some thought nova would be an 8+48 setup.

while I wouldn't put it past intel to make such a stupid move even they're not that completely stupid to sell a fireball waiting to explode and put your flat on fire.

 

[Fjodor2001]

No.

I was just quoting what JoeC said, i.e.:

"AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet"

But thanks for confirming it's inaccurate. I assume you're then implicitly saying it'll only be 16C for Zen 5 on desktop after all.

As in CPU tile is one hueg 8+32 ring with cores.
Either way why even care about stillborn products.

I never said that. Sources online just say 8P + 32E CPU cores for Arrow Lake desktop CPUs. Some mention that it'll use chiplets. But regardless they say 8P + 32E CPU cores. And if accurate, I have a hard time seeing how a 16C Zen5 CPU will be able to compete with that in MT workloads.

 

[Joe NYC]

That's for server.
Remember, post-Zen5 server and client diverge.

The question was specifically about Zen 5 generation, how it will compete with Arrow Lake.

In Zen 5 generation, I am assuming CCDs are still interchangeable between server and desktop.

 

[A///]

I never said that. Sources online just say 8P + 32E CPU cores for Arrow Lake desktop CPUs. Some mention that it'll use chiplets. But regardless they say 8P + 32E CPU cores. And if accurate, I have a hard time seeing how a 16C Zen5 CPU will be able to compete with that in MT workloads.

The sources you claim are sources are not sources but are referring to a rumor that was made up in 2021 when the original raptorlake es benches were found online on a databse showing an e core count increase. it was then presumed intel would add e cores each generation. that isn't the case.

that rumor then got spread by mlid and the other channel, the greasy fat boy.

 

[Thunder 57]

I was just quoting what JoeC said, i.e.:

"AMD will have 8c, high performance chiplet and a 16c high density chiplet"

But thanks for confirming it's inaccurate. I assume you're then implicitly saying it'll only be 16C for Zen 5 on desktop after all.



I never said that. Sources online just say 8P + 32E CPU cores for Arrow Lake desktop CPUs. Some mention that it'll use chiplets. But regardless they say 8P + 32E CPU cores. And if accurate, I have a hard time seeing how a 16C Zen5 CPU will be able to compete with that in MT workloads.

8+32 seems a little farfeteched. A lot of people don't care much for e cores, and 16 seems plenty. Amdhal's Law. Of course if you are "Megatasking" to bring back an old phrase it could be useful.

 

[A///]

8+32 seems a little farfeteched. A lot of people don't care much for e cores, and 16 seems plenty. Amdhal's Law. Of course if you are "Megatasking" to bring back an old phrase it could be useful.

would keep my house toasty in winter. beats splitting wood in late summer and waiting for it to dry out over the next couple of months.

 

[Fjodor2001]

8+32 seems a little farfeteched. A lot of people don't care much for e cores, and 16 seems plenty. Amdhal's Law. Of course if you are "Megatasking" to bring back an old phrase it could be useful.

There'll most likely be 8P +16/24E variants of Arrow Lake too. Not everyone needs to buy the top end.

But just wondering performance-wise, what you guys think 16C Zen5 CPU would be comparable to in MT workloads? Arrow Lake 8P + 12E, 8P + 16E, 8P + 24E, or 8P + 32E?

 

[adroc_thurston]

how it will compete with Arrow Lake.

It's gonna do fancypants warcrimes to it, no V$ needed even.

 

[H433x0n]

The interposers will do the job, but the cost of MTL may prevent it from being able to compete on the low end of the market.

Why would it be expensive? Packaging in raw materials is incredibly cheap. The TSMC silicon on MTL/ARL isn’t expensive either.

 

[A///]

The TSMC silicon on MTL/ARL isn’t expensive either.

Still no clear confirmation whether tsmc was relied upon.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The interposers will do the job, but the cost of MTL may prevent it from being able to compete on the low end of the market.

No wonder they are calling it Core Ultra. Make it seem exclusive and price it high coz quantity is scarce.

 

[A///]

It's gonna do fancypants warcrimes to it, no V$ needed even.

$ is largely useless outside gaming this threads.

 

[A///]

No wonder they are calling it Core Ultra. Make it seem exclusive and price it high coz quantity is scarce.

also sounds like the name of a tampon brand.