Discussion Zen 5 Discussion (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 8000)

[DisEnchantment]

Well, since many folks already got their hands (or at least going to get) on Zen 4 CPUs , time to discuss about Zen 5 (Zen 4 already old news )

We already got roadmaps and key technologies like AIE








Some things we already knew

• Dr. Lisa Su and Forrest Norrod already mentioned at FAD 2022 on May 9th, during Q&A that Zen 5 will come in N3 and N4/5 variants so it will be on multiple nodes.
• Mark Papermaster highlighted that it will be a grounds up architecture, Also mentioned last para here
• Mike Clark mentioned that they started to work on Zen 5 already in 2018. This means Zen 5 by the time it launches would have been under conception and planning and development for much longer than the original Zen program

For a CPU architecture launching in early 2024 in the form of Strix Point for OEM notebook refresh, tape out should be happening in the next few months already.
Share your thoughts

"I just wanted to close my eyes, go to sleep, and then wake up and buy this thing. I want to be in the future, this thing is awesome and it's going be so great - I can't wait for it." - Mike Clark

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Two CPU tiles, one GPU tile.
That's it.
Nothing fancy at all.

So basically everything is new.
1.) two 8C16T Zen5 CCDs
2.) 40CU RDNA3.5 GCD
3.) IOD including 32MB MALL + some GPU parts like video outputs, video engine and such

 

[Glo.]

That 40 CU Strix Point GPU should have RX 6700 XT performance.

Roughly...

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

That 40 CU Strix Point GPU should have RX 6700 XT performance.

Roughly...

Final performance will totally depend on achievable clocks and what TDP will be set for Strix Halo.

 

[LightningZ71]

With things like FSR, a 40CU Strix Halo should be adequate (but not stellar) for 4K gaming without (or with minimal) RT and maybe manage solid 1080p/1200p with almost everything turned up. Native 1080P/1200P should be decent with modest RT.

I'm still having trouble understanding where this fits in the stack though? The 4060 mobile product is going to be in the same neighborhood as this iGPU, and you can currently get good gaming laptops with a 4060M and an H class CPU for around 1K. Strix Halo is going to be an expensive product (though, it shouldn't be more expensive to implement than a separate CPU and dGPU in an average gaming laptop) due to how laptop makers market their devices. So, it's not going to win on price on the shelf. It's going to be a solid CPU of course, but, there will be others on the market too.

It's likely to require too much power and heat dissipation to go into handhelds. It could function as a replacement SOC in the PS and XBOX as it should best what's in there in every way, though I doubt that it will be as cost effective.

Maybe this is targeted at those compact desktop PCs that are gaining popularity? It shouldn't require a PCIe GPU. It could support TB/USB4 or Occulink and support an eGPU if someone wants to upgrade at a later date. The speculated 120 watts should be manageable from that type of case.

 

[Glo.]

Most likely: Strix Halo should be cheaper and easier to implement, because again, most likely, it will come with LPDDR5X memory on the package.

So you will have one, integrated package to implement in your design.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

With things like FSR, a 40CU Strix Halo should be adequate (but not stellar) for 4K gaming without (or with minimal) RT and maybe manage solid 1080p/1200p with almost everything turned up. Native 1080P/1200P should be decent with modest RT.

I'm still having trouble understanding where this fits in the stack though? The 4060 mobile product is going to be in the same neighborhood as this iGPU, and you can currently get good gaming laptops with a 4060M and an H class CPU for around 1K. Strix Halo is going to be an expensive product (though, it shouldn't be more expensive to implement than a separate CPU and dGPU in an average gaming laptop) due to how laptop makers market their devices. So, it's not going to win on price on the shelf. It's going to be a solid CPU of course, but, there will be others on the market too.

It's likely to require too much power and heat dissipation to go into handhelds. It could function as a replacement SOC in the PS and XBOX as it should best what's in there in every way, though I doubt that it will be as cost effective.

Maybe this is targeted at those compact desktop PCs that are gaining popularity? It shouldn't require a PCIe GPU. It could support TB/USB4 or Occulink and support an eGPU if someone wants to upgrade at a later date. The speculated 120 watts should be manageable from that type of case.

You make some valid points.
CPU will be top class, but IGP will be at worst RTX 4060 Laptop level or at best somewhat faster than RTX 4070 laptop. The advantage will be that you won't be limited to only 8GB Vram in theory, but who knows how much RAM will be used with Strix Halo. I hope for at least 48GB, but 64GB would be preferable, I would put 48GB for system and 16GB as Vram.

These are one of the cheapest laptops with Intel 8P+16E and Nvidia in my country with tax included:
Acer Predator Helios Neo 16 - 13900HX, 32GB DDR5, 1TB SSD, RTX 4060 -> 1 789 €
Acer Predator Helios Neo 16 - 13900HX, 32Gb DDR5, 1TB SSD, RTX 4070 -> 2 109 €
Cheapest Strix Halo laptop should end up somewhere in that range to be competitive in my opinion.

For handhelds Strix Halo is too power hungry but we still have Strix Point.
As for being used in PS or Xbox, IGP is not strong enough and CPU looks like an overkill.

edit: I don't think It will be released for desktop considering It needs to use soldered LPDDR5x.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Most likely: Strix Halo should be cheaper and easier to implement, because again, most likely, it will come with LPDDR5X memory on the package.

So you will have one, integrated package to implement in your design.

I don't think LPDDR5x will be on CPU package, It will be on board in my opinion.

 

[adroc_thurston]

So basically everything is new.
1.) two 8C16T Zen5 CCDs
2.) 40CU RDNA3.5 GCD
3.) IOD including 32MB MALL + some GPU parts like video outputs, video engine and such

No.
Just two CPU tiles and one GPU tile.
That's it.

it will come with LPDDR5X memory on the package.

Hell no, AMD isn't doing the SKU spam.

Strix Halo should be cheaper and easier to implement

No it literally costs more since LPDDR tax is high.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

No.
Just two CPU tiles and one GPU tile.
That's it.

And what happened to I/O die?

​

 

[LightningZ71]

You make some valid points.
CPU will be top class, but IGP will be at worst RTX 4060 Laptop level or at best somewhat faster than RTX 4070 laptop. The advantage will be that you won't be limited to only 8GB Vram in theory, but who knows how much RAM will be used with Strix Halo. I hope for at least 48GB, but 64GB would be preferable, I would put 48GB for system and 16GB as Vram.

These are one of the cheapest laptops with Intel 8P+16E and Nvidia in my country with tax included:
Acer Predator Helios Neo 16 - 13900HX, 32GB DDR5, 1TB SSD, RTX 4060 -> 1 789 €
Acer Predator Helios Neo 16 - 13900HX, 32Gb DDR5, 1TB SSD, RTX 4070 -> 2 109 €
Cheapest Strix Halo laptop should end up somewhere in that range to be competitive in my opinion.

For handhelds Strix Halo is too power hungry but we still have Strix Point.
As for being used in PS or Xbox, IGP is not strong enough and CPU looks like an overkill.

edit: I don't think It will be released for desktop considering It needs to use soldered LPDDR5x.

The Lenovo LOQ 16" with 7840H and 4060 is sold for around $1000-$1100 in the US market. The question is, will Strix Halo provide a notably better gaming experience for that amount of money? Gigabyte and Acer also offer similar laptops in that price range. To avoid running into VRAM limits in modern games, Strix Halo will need at least 32GB of LPDDR5 RAM. That's not going to be cheap, nor will it be upgradeable.

It's got a tough market to sell into.

 

[Joe NYC]

You make some valid points.
CPU will be top class, but IGP will be at worst RTX 4060 Laptop level or at best somewhat faster than RTX 4070 laptop. The advantage will be that you won't be limited to only 8GB Vram in theory, but who knows how much RAM will be used with Strix Halo. I hope for at least 48GB, but 64GB would be preferable, I would put 48GB for system and 16GB as Vram.

I haven't used iGPU, but from some reading, apparently Windows can dynamically allocate memory for iGPU from main memory.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

The Lenovo LOQ 16" with 7840H and 4060 is sold for around $1000-$1100 in the US market. The question is, will Strix Halo provide a notably better gaming experience for that amount of money? Gigabyte and Acer also offer similar laptops in that price range. To avoid running into VRAM limits in modern games, Strix Halo will need at least 32GB of LPDDR5 RAM. That's not going to be cheap, nor will it be upgradeable.

It's got a tough market to sell into.

Of course It won't. 13900HX + RTX 4600 laptop also doesn't provide better experience despite costing a lot more. You basically pay CPU tax.

32GB of LPDDR5x is low in my opinion even If Vram is dynamically allocated to IGP, because It is not upgradeable.

It looks like a niche product to me.

 

[Glo.]

32GB of LPDDR5x is low in my opinion even If Vram is dynamically allocated to IGP, because It is not upgradeable.

32 GB of RAM for APUs/SOCs are minimum right now

64 is the optimum .

 

[Joe NYC]

Hell no, AMD isn't doing the SKU spam.

There would be advantages in putting memory on package, one of which is AMD pairing it with high spec memory, rather than letting OEMs to pair AMD parts with garbage memory.

Also, eventual system cost would go down if AMD does the integration at higher scale than each OEM individually.

 

[Joe NYC]

32 GB of RAM for APUs/SOCs are minimum right now

64 is the optimum .

For high end system.

For more mainstream, 32 GB would be sufficient.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

For high end system.

For more mainstream, 32 GB would be sufficient.

You think Strix Halo is a mainstream system? Ok, IGP is not comparable to high end, but CPU is TOP class.
Let's not forget about extra RAM requirement for IGP and you can't upgrade It.
48GB looks like a good enough compromise to me.

 

[Glo.]

For high end system.

For more mainstream, 32 GB would be sufficient.

OFC, for Mainstream 32 is enough.

Heck, even 16 GB could be, depending on the use case(e-Sports, 1080p gameplay).

 

[Joe NYC]

You think Strix Halo is a mainstream system? Ok, IGP is not comparable to high end, but CPU is TOP class.
Let's not forget about extra RAM requirement for IGP and you can't upgrade It.
48GB looks like a good enough compromise to me.

I think the Strix Halo will become a full product line, not just a single SKU. A product line aimed to out compete Intel's chiplet based parts while regular Strix wil aim to outcompete Intel's monolithic mobile products.

If it is a full product line it can have multiple SKUs, including 8 core and 16 core. And if Memory is on package, 2-3 memory configurations.

 

[Glo.]

AFAIU, Strix Point is supposed to counter Arrow Lake-P, even if Arrow Lake is released around 6-9 months after Strix Point Halo releases.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

I think the Strix Halo will become a full product line, not just a single SKU. A product line aimed to out compete Intel's chiplet based parts while regular Strix wil aim to outcompete Intel's monolithic mobile products.

If it is a full product line it can have multiple SKUs, including 8 core and 16 core. And if Memory is on package, 2-3 memory configurations.

I can agree with more than a single SKU, but will they really go down to 8 cores?
Yes, you could use only a single CCD, but the reason why I am sceptical about that is the existence of Strix Point. That one will have 4 Zen5 + 8 Zen5c cores, so Strix Halo with only a single CCD would be slower in the CPU department.

I see a possible lineup like this:
Strix Halo: 16 Zen5, 40CU RDNA3.5, 256-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Halo: 14-16 Zen5, 36CU RDNA3.5, 256-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Halo: 12 Zen5, 32CU RDNA3.5, 192-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Halo: 10-12 Zen5, 24CU RDNA3.5, 192-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Point: 4+8Zen5(c), 16CU RDAN3.5, 128-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Point: 4+6Zen5(c), 12CU RDNA3.5, 128-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Point: 4+4Zen5(c), 8CU RDNA3.5, 128-bit LPDDR5

 

[Ajay]

Strix Halo: 14-16 Zen5, 36CU RDNA3.5, 256-bit LPDDR5x

I suppose that CUs could be cut, either as die harvesting or product differentiation, but I don't see why core counts would be dropped to 14.

 

[adroc_thurston]

And what happened to I/O die?

Never existed.
It's two CPU tiles and the SOC tile.

Strix Halo: 12 Zen5, 32CU RDNA3.5, 192-bit LPDDR5x
Strix Halo: 10-12 Zen5, 24CU RDNA3.5, 192-bit LPDDR5x

All FP10 parts are 256b.

There would be advantages in putting memory on package

Yes but it's more SKUs. Annoying.

AFAIU, Strix Point is supposed to counter Arrow Lake-P

Arrow-P683 is long dead.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Never existed.
It's two CPU tiles and the SOC tile.

Then what process will that SoC actually use? I don't think It will use N3 and It won't be small either. N4-N5 most likely.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

I suppose that CUs could be cut, either as die harvesting or product differentiation, but I don't see why core counts would be dropped to 14.

If core count can be dropped down to 12 then why not also to 14? CU won't be the only one used for product segmentation.

 

[jpiniero]

Then what process will that SoC actually use? I don't think It will use N3.

N4P probably. Going to be interesting to see if they can get OEMs to really use this versus just throwing on a cheesy nVidia GPU like they are now.