Darkstar757
Diamond Member
- Feb 1, 2003
- 3,190
- 6
- 81
Well I can tottally releate to your problem of Depression. I have suffered with it for about four years now. I am doing much better but I truly know how hard it can be. To be honest the only thing that you can do at this point to stay happy and keep you sanity is to pray about this issue. Also meditate and call your close family to help consule you. IF your wife does in fact leave (which I truly hope does not happen) you got to keep the fact that you are a great guy and have a whole lot of life still adhead of you. I hope that some of this helps.
IF you need any help with this or have some question feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Darkstar
IF you need any help with this or have some question feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Darkstar
FYI on passports for children under the age of 14.
Just need to find out if that holds for replacing "lost" passports.
MichaelD
Lifer
- Jan 16, 2001
- 31,528
- 3
- 76
PliableMoose is my soulmate when it comes to this stuff. We've been talking about it for pretty much all of my 2.5 years here.
He's a great guy and VERY knowledgeble about the legal aspects of this kind of situation.You really should be asking HIS advice; he knows more than I do when it comes to kids and lawyers.
But if you just want someone to verbally kick her lying, kid-snatching, 7-year itch bitch ass all over the internet, than I'm your man.
don't hate, but i'm gonna see things from a different perspective:
A brief and candid delivery. Very impressive. More women need to buck up the nerve to reject men like this, and more men need to be able to see the value of getting rejected.
The problem is this: her timing is way off. Saying "I don't know if I ever did," she seems to be one of those girls who weren't that good at saying "no" directly when propositioned. You know, the type that would dance around the issue, make you wait in agony, until she delivers some kiss-of-death line like "i like you, i just don't like you like that" or "oh, you'd make a really great friend."
Your wife made you wait. For 7+ years, a marriage, and 2 kids. I'm sorry I can't help you out in the legal aspect. Too bad the courts can't give her some sort of "relationship replacement probation" for the period of 7 years.
A brief and candid delivery. Very impressive. More women need to buck up the nerve to reject men like this, and more men need to be able to see the value of getting rejected.
The problem is this: her timing is way off. Saying "I don't know if I ever did," she seems to be one of those girls who weren't that good at saying "no" directly when propositioned. You know, the type that would dance around the issue, make you wait in agony, until she delivers some kiss-of-death line like "i like you, i just don't like you like that" or "oh, you'd make a really great friend."
Your wife made you wait. For 7+ years, a marriage, and 2 kids. I'm sorry I can't help you out in the legal aspect. Too bad the courts can't give her some sort of "relationship replacement probation" for the period of 7 years.
Yeah, I'd definitely agree with the statement that many people today just seem to have unrealistic expectations of love. It might've been like this for a while, just that nowadays there's a lower tolerance level on the whole, and as such a higher rater of divorce.
Love is an emotion, but people just get it confused sometimes. It's an emotion that takes active participation to maintain, and one that you won't be able to feel all the time. It'll still be there somewhere, just hiding for the moment, covered by all the other ish in your life.
I'm sure this guy knows his wife better than anyone here. If he says that she's just not happy with a mature relationship in which her heart doesn't do sommersaults everytime they see each other, then that's probably a big chunk of it. Sounds like the therapist/counselor involved was either just not compatible with this couple, or was too interested in pleasing one party at the expense of another.
At this point, judging from what I've heard, I'd say it might be bordering on too late to make a change. If she's said that she can't remember ever loving you, then that could be her way of making an exaggerated, blanket statement to get the point across. You know, sorta like how when you feel cornered or panicked in an argument with a friend or sibling, you'll break out the most hurtful thing you can think of (or at least consider doing so). It's almost a method of last resort, as though she's already made up her mind, and was just waiting for the time to use that line.
But in the end, the decisions are all up to you. I will say that if you've been suffering with depression since your early teens, you really should focus on getting that taken care of as best you can. It's hard to be involved in a relationship--which at its heart is a constant series of concessions, agreements, and compromises--when you've got something so large already taking up a sizable chunk of your personal resources. If you've tried counseling before, then try again. Try a different strategy, different therapist, different meds; just find something that works for you. Living with depression is something that no one should have to do, and there will be plenty of people out there willing to help.
It really, really does suck what you're going through, no doubt about that. I honestly can't even imagine what you must be dealing with at the moment. Hell, it's hard enough for me to just deal with a plain break-up at the moment. Just realize that you're going to feel like crud for a pretty decent amount of time. But time is your best medication right now, and with each little bit you'll feel somewhat better. But because of your history of depression, I would wager that time by itself won't be enough...talk to someone about it, and work at rebuilding your life.
Love is an emotion, but people just get it confused sometimes. It's an emotion that takes active participation to maintain, and one that you won't be able to feel all the time. It'll still be there somewhere, just hiding for the moment, covered by all the other ish in your life.
I'm sure this guy knows his wife better than anyone here. If he says that she's just not happy with a mature relationship in which her heart doesn't do sommersaults everytime they see each other, then that's probably a big chunk of it. Sounds like the therapist/counselor involved was either just not compatible with this couple, or was too interested in pleasing one party at the expense of another.
At this point, judging from what I've heard, I'd say it might be bordering on too late to make a change. If she's said that she can't remember ever loving you, then that could be her way of making an exaggerated, blanket statement to get the point across. You know, sorta like how when you feel cornered or panicked in an argument with a friend or sibling, you'll break out the most hurtful thing you can think of (or at least consider doing so). It's almost a method of last resort, as though she's already made up her mind, and was just waiting for the time to use that line.
But in the end, the decisions are all up to you. I will say that if you've been suffering with depression since your early teens, you really should focus on getting that taken care of as best you can. It's hard to be involved in a relationship--which at its heart is a constant series of concessions, agreements, and compromises--when you've got something so large already taking up a sizable chunk of your personal resources. If you've tried counseling before, then try again. Try a different strategy, different therapist, different meds; just find something that works for you. Living with depression is something that no one should have to do, and there will be plenty of people out there willing to help.
It really, really does suck what you're going through, no doubt about that. I honestly can't even imagine what you must be dealing with at the moment. Hell, it's hard enough for me to just deal with a plain break-up at the moment. Just realize that you're going to feel like crud for a pretty decent amount of time. But time is your best medication right now, and with each little bit you'll feel somewhat better. But because of your history of depression, I would wager that time by itself won't be enough...talk to someone about it, and work at rebuilding your life.
I'll have to keep an eye out for PliableMoose ... I've heard MichealD's rant before, but never quite felt it like I do now. But I must have missed PliableMoose's story.
The thing is, right now at least, I'm not angry ... just incredibly hurt, and frankly, scared
I suppose I'll get around to anger eventually.
The thing is, right now at least, I'm not angry ... just incredibly hurt, and frankly, scared
I suppose I'll get around to anger eventually.
Originally posted by: Armitage
I'll have to keep an eye out for PliableMoose ... I've heard MichealD's rant before, but never quite felt it like I do now. But I must have missed PliableMoose's story.
The thing is, right now at least, I'm not angry ... just incredibly hurt, and frankly, scared
I suppose I'll get around to anger eventually.
I can understand the fear. Don't forego family and friends. Use them for support. That's why they're your family and friends!
If you're a religious type, I'd recommend going to church regularly, too, or talking to your priest/pastor/rabbi/whatever.
And, do keep us updated, sorta family here, too.
Let us know how it goes w/a lawyer.
Yea, that's come up ... when I proposed, I didn't get the jumping up & down yesyesyesyes kind of response I expected. I think her first words were "Are you serious?!" ... but she said yes a few seconds after that ... and we were very happy together for at least 6 years.
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Love is NOT a feeling!
You're talking about affection, lust, excitement, infatuation, enjoyment, etc. People lump all these emotions and tag it with one word, but that isn't how it works. Yes women are different, but if they followed all of their emotional instincts 100% they would never last an entire month with anything - job, boyfriend, spouse, pet, house, friends, clothes, etc.
When you love someone, you can FEEL admiration, closeness, intimacy, respect, wanting, etc. But when you don't feel those feelings, that doesn't mean the love doesn't exist. When she says she doesn't think she ever loved him from the start, she might actually be right - since love is an action, in her heart/mind/spirit she never made that obligation to him.
What will be really sad is if he finds out she is actually interested in some other guy - this is why labeling Love as an emotion is dangerous - if I'm walking through the mall and I see some blonde chick that totally gets me excited, I'm not about to think "oh no I'm excited! that means I never loved my wife!"
I'm torn between who should get the kids if they split. On one hand, she made the first move and admitted that her marital contract to him is void because her vows meant nothing, don't think it would be a good idea for her to have a kids because she is a horrible role model. On the other hand, this guy admits that he is prone to depression, so he might not be a good parental figure when his wife is gone.
...
This is why marriage needs to be a permanent contract NO MATTER WHAT, once there are kids involved (unless there is abuse involved). The only persons I can feel bad for in this circumstance are the kids.
100%
YES, sagalore is right.
I love my parents, my wife, my kids. are they all the same? NO, because love encompasses a whole collection of feelings. The collection of feelings that i feel for my parents not the same as what i feel for my wife which is again not the same as what i feel for my children.
I'm saddened, Ameritage, to read your story. It's hard enough when you see people who want to work it out but the other party doesn't.
"You're a great guy, a fantastic father, great provider ... but I just don't love you anymore. I don't know if I ever did."
Sad, sad.
"Actually, I first heard that back in April ... just blurted it out in the middle of dinner. I asked her to go to counseling with me ... we did for awhile ... about 5 sessions. The doc loaded it all off on me basically ... that all our problems were a result of my depression (I've had problems with depression off & on since my teens) and spending to much time on a large project we undertook together. I had my doubts, but she jumped right on that bandwagon. At least it got us talking, and things seemed to be going better for awhile."
You should have taken her seriously the first time. Maybe the counselor was really right about you not being there emotionally 'cuz you were too involved in your projects. But I do think it was a great move on your end to propose counselling and be willing to work things out.
However, she's spoken. It's over when she says it is and won't go for counselling with you. It's possible that she isn't telling you anything and gave up because she's been trying too hard but felt you weren't listening; or it just wasn't working. You can't force someone to feel the way you feel toward them. I hope you make efforts to stay calm so your thoughts aren't clouded. Try to work things out and make the divorce as decent as possible. Take the lessons you should learn and try to make any future relationships a successful and more mature one.
P.S.: Don't be surprised if she actually has someone that she's laying her eyes on already or soon will. It doesn't sound like someone who's just not feeling you anymore but feels no one else. I sympathise with you, though. Hope your kids can have the best of life from both of you. Best of luck.
"You're a great guy, a fantastic father, great provider ... but I just don't love you anymore. I don't know if I ever did."
Sad, sad.
"Actually, I first heard that back in April ... just blurted it out in the middle of dinner. I asked her to go to counseling with me ... we did for awhile ... about 5 sessions. The doc loaded it all off on me basically ... that all our problems were a result of my depression (I've had problems with depression off & on since my teens) and spending to much time on a large project we undertook together. I had my doubts, but she jumped right on that bandwagon. At least it got us talking, and things seemed to be going better for awhile."
You should have taken her seriously the first time. Maybe the counselor was really right about you not being there emotionally 'cuz you were too involved in your projects. But I do think it was a great move on your end to propose counselling and be willing to work things out.
However, she's spoken. It's over when she says it is and won't go for counselling with you. It's possible that she isn't telling you anything and gave up because she's been trying too hard but felt you weren't listening; or it just wasn't working. You can't force someone to feel the way you feel toward them. I hope you make efforts to stay calm so your thoughts aren't clouded. Try to work things out and make the divorce as decent as possible. Take the lessons you should learn and try to make any future relationships a successful and more mature one.
P.S.: Don't be surprised if she actually has someone that she's laying her eyes on already or soon will. It doesn't sound like someone who's just not feeling you anymore but feels no one else. I sympathise with you, though. Hope your kids can have the best of life from both of you. Best of luck.
I'd try to talk to her about the passport/S. America thing. Don't just take them.
My mom did that same thing to my dad in '99 (without the S. America/kids thing). She just told him she didn't want to be with him any more. No reason at the time. I was 13 and my brother was 17. My dad didn't have any depression before hand, but after she left he started going to a counselor and is still taking meds for it. There was nothing he could do. If it gives you any consolation, I recognised the situation as being totally unfair for my dad, and I live with him now.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk.
My mom did that same thing to my dad in '99 (without the S. America/kids thing). She just told him she didn't want to be with him any more. No reason at the time. I was 13 and my brother was 17. My dad didn't have any depression before hand, but after she left he started going to a counselor and is still taking meds for it. There was nothing he could do. If it gives you any consolation, I recognised the situation as being totally unfair for my dad, and I live with him now.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like to talk.
Originally posted by: Spooner
typically i'd reply with a snide, sarcastic remark.............
but your situation is awful man, i'm really sorry for you
hope things work out.
For some time I worked in a profession where even a hint of mental illness was a kiss-of-death for your career ... so counseling & meds were pretty much out of the question. And I think the depression thing is getting a little blown out of proportion here ... in my teens & early twenties, it was a serious problem the definitely interfered with my life ... but on the flip side, I was incredibly productive & creative in between. I should have gotten help, career or not. But I've worked through that ... it's much more moderated now ... like periodically I'll just feel very down, withdrawn, tired for a few weeks.
Thanks ... it's just hard to see a future right now ... I've always had a clear vision of where things were, where they were going, how to get there. Now I can't see to next week.
MichaelD
Lifer
- Jan 16, 2001
- 31,528
- 3
- 76
Originally posted by: Armitage
I'll have to keep an eye out for PliableMoose ... I've heard MichealD's rant before, but never quite felt it like I do now. But I must have missed PliableMoose's story.
The thing is, right now at least, I'm not angry ... just incredibly hurt, and frankly, scared
I suppose I'll get around to anger eventually.
Well, whoever you are, hopefully, you weren't one of those "happily married and my wife would NEVER do that to me, so you suck, MichaelD" guys.
If you are...now maybe you see that I'm not so full of sh1t after all, huh?
Dont' get angry. I've come a long way with my anger management...I really have. I'm not so angry anymore, just bitter as hell.
Don't get like I was. Keep a cool head. Do her before she does you. Get that restraining order. If she leaves w/the kids, that's felony kidnapping across international borders or something. do the right thing. I wish you luck.
And thanks for all the offers to pm or talk off line. I really appreciate, and may take you up on that eventually.
Originally posted by: MichaelD
Originally posted by: Armitage
I'll have to keep an eye out for PliableMoose ... I've heard MichealD's rant before, but never quite felt it like I do now. But I must have missed PliableMoose's story.
The thing is, right now at least, I'm not angry ... just incredibly hurt, and frankly, scared
I suppose I'll get around to anger eventually.
Well, whoever you are, hopefully, you weren't one of those "happily married and my wife would NEVER do that to me, so you suck, MichaelD" guys.
If you are...now maybe you see that I'm not so full of sh1t after all, huh?
I read some of those threads, but generally didn't participate ... just hoped it'd never happen to me, and felt for those who were in the middle of it.
Damn, really sorry to hear about that. Situations like that suck all around.
Some advice you may want to additionally consider is on the financial side. How much of what you two own is in your name? Does she handle the bills and/or money in general? Do you have a joint account? If the latter, make sure you watch it VERY closely. If she's planning to hide in SA, she'll likely try sucking dry all the accounts she can before taking off. Between her own attitude, and potentially the counciling reinforcing that, she seems like the kind who would do it. Some cash stashing here and there, to make she can't take you completly and utterly to the cleaners, would be something to consider. Definetly bring up issues like that when talking to the lawyer, and see what you can do to set yourself up in a decent position when the inevitable happens.
Again, I am sorry to hear this is happening to you. Something similar is happeing in my family, (the dead love thing) and being caught in the middle of it is one of the crappiest feelings possible.
-- Jack
Some advice you may want to additionally consider is on the financial side. How much of what you two own is in your name? Does she handle the bills and/or money in general? Do you have a joint account? If the latter, make sure you watch it VERY closely. If she's planning to hide in SA, she'll likely try sucking dry all the accounts she can before taking off. Between her own attitude, and potentially the counciling reinforcing that, she seems like the kind who would do it. Some cash stashing here and there, to make she can't take you completly and utterly to the cleaners, would be something to consider. Definetly bring up issues like that when talking to the lawyer, and see what you can do to set yourself up in a decent position when the inevitable happens.
Again, I am sorry to hear this is happening to you. Something similar is happeing in my family, (the dead love thing) and being caught in the middle of it is one of the crappiest feelings possible.
-- Jack
As great as the ATOT community is for tossing ideas around and getting a wide variety of opinions, I think you need to talk to a professional. See a lawyer (like others have mentioned) on the legal aspects, and see a counselor too. I wouldn't go back to the guy you saw with your wife (but it sounds like you've made that decision too). You need to talk to someone face to face who can help you deal with this. If you've had problems with depression before, this could start you back down the same path again. Take care of yourself, and keep us updated. /subscribes to thread
I have to say I agree with Sagalore, Whisper, and Platinum gold and their assesments of the misperceptions of what true "love" really is....I think with many they are mis-associating "lust" with "love" or "respect and devotion"...there are some great sites you might want to check out Armitage that deal directly with relationships such as:
www.consciousloving.com
They have great relationship boards and also some very knowledgable people who post and contribute to the discussion, plus alot of people who might have been in similar situations as your own....
I know far too many people who had the same attitude as your wife towards "love" and losing the feeling or questioning if it was ever there....I have seen some who go off and are much happier after they leave, but I have also seen some who follow this instinct, leave and then are nothing but miserable because they realize they made a mistake and they were really just lusting for something different ...a grass is always greener type of situation.
I wish you the best of luck and agree with the masses here that you should take legal action or at the very least get legal counsel asap to protect the well being of your children...I know it is a cheesy reference but just watch "the life of david gayle" and you will see a good example of what can happen with custody issues if she does decide to leave the country....
good luck and stay strong.
www.consciousloving.com
They have great relationship boards and also some very knowledgable people who post and contribute to the discussion, plus alot of people who might have been in similar situations as your own....
I know far too many people who had the same attitude as your wife towards "love" and losing the feeling or questioning if it was ever there....I have seen some who go off and are much happier after they leave, but I have also seen some who follow this instinct, leave and then are nothing but miserable because they realize they made a mistake and they were really just lusting for something different ...a grass is always greener type of situation.
I wish you the best of luck and agree with the masses here that you should take legal action or at the very least get legal counsel asap to protect the well being of your children...I know it is a cheesy reference but just watch "the life of david gayle" and you will see a good example of what can happen with custody issues if she does decide to leave the country....
good luck and stay strong.
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