"You can't walk at graduation because...."

[R Nilla]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: R Nilla
I am basing my argument off of the premise that a graduation ceremony is intended to encompass all graduates of that year (in this case class of 2008), in which case it is more logical to include her in this ceremony than in next year's. I already stated this in an earlier post.

In that case, I disagree with your premise and we'll have to agree to be at an impasse.

ZV

Fair enough.

I have no vested interest in this case, but enjoyed the purely objective discussion.

 

[thraashman]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Again, that does not constitute harm. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have sunk so low as a society that something this small and insignificant can get people so riled up. Life's rough people. That's the only universal truth there is.

I've already pointed out that, were it my decision, and assuming that the article is not leaving out critical pieces of information, she would be allowed to walk. I just don't understand why everyone thinks is such a big deal. Get over it people.

ZV

It's a big deal because this girl might not survive long enough to do anything bigger. This might well be the last accomplishment she gets to have in her life. If 3 months from now her cancer comes back hard and 6 months later she dies, what then? Sure she got a diploma, but she never got to walk and celebrate WITH HER FRIENDS. It's not even so much getting the diploma that matters to most people, it's celebrating that moment with the people close to you. She might not get more moments like this if any more at all, she's worked to try to catch up but nearly dying isn't easy to get over. Not on IS it a big deal it's a huge fucking deal. If ceremonies weren't big deals, then we wouldn't have them at all for anything.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

People aren't computers. There are only a few people who could possibly have strong feelings one way or another about this (i.e. with strong enough feelings about it to make more than a couple posts on a message board), and I guarantee you they are all in favor of her walking. In terms of cost-benefit, the cost of her walking is not great, and the benefit of her walking is tremendous.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: thraashman

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Again, that does not constitute harm. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have sunk so low as a society that something this small and insignificant can get people so riled up. Life's rough people. That's the only universal truth there is.

I've already pointed out that, were it my decision, and assuming that the article is not leaving out critical pieces of information, she would be allowed to walk. I just don't understand why everyone thinks is such a big deal. Get over it people.

ZV

It's a big deal because this girl might not survive long enough to do anything bigger. This might well be the last accomplishment she gets to have in her life. If 3 months from now her cancer comes back hard and 6 months later she dies, what then? Sure she got a diploma, but she never got to walk and celebrate WITH HER FRIENDS. It's not even so much getting the diploma that matters to most people, it's celebrating that moment with the people close to you. She might not get more moments like this if any more at all, she's worked to try to catch up but nearly dying isn't easy to get over. Not on IS it a big deal it's a huge fucking deal. If ceremonies weren't big deals, then we wouldn't have them at all for anything.

But why is it a big deal? You still haven't answered that. She can celebrate with her friends at their individual parties. Those always had more celebration and enjoyable times than the school ceremonies did. Not walking at the school's ceremony doesn't stop her from celebrating with her friends and nothing is stopping her from having her own "graduation party" around the same time as all her friends have theirs.

You say, essentially, that ceremonies are a big deal because we have them and that we have them because they are a big deal. I ask you, why? Why are they a big deal?

Historically, the reason for ceremonies is the accomplishment they represent (an induction ceremony into a guild, a coronation ceremony for a monarch, a baptismal or confirmation ceremony in a church, etc). The value of a ceremony has not, historically, been intrinsic to the ceremony itself, but extrinsic and residing in an accomplishment or change of status.

This leads to the question then of why are we, as a society, so tied to ceremony when the real value is not in the ceremony but in the change of status or the accomplishment that traditionally accompanies the ceremony?

ZV

 

[imported_Baloo]

Sorry OP, I'm with the school on this one. You don't give someone a diploma on a promise of earning it. What next, we give every freshman as they register for classes their diploma on their word they're gonna complete 4 years of highschool. I know, slippery slope. She has a valid reason for not being able to graduate with her friends; there's no valid reason do grant a diploma without having earned it, and no reason to also have her attend the ceremony as if she eraned her diploma, when she did not. Like I said, she has a valid reason for not yet earning her diploma, she don't need to go and show her whole class that she's actually a phony.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Baloo
Sorry OP, I'm with the school on this one. You don't give someone a diploma on a promise of earning it. What next, we give every freshman as they register for classes their diploma on their word they're gonna complete 4 years of highschool. I know, slippery slope. She has a valid reason for not being able to graduate with her friends; there's no valid reason do grant a diploma without having earned it, and no reason to also have her attend the ceremony as if she eraned her diploma, when she did not. Like I said, she has a valid reason for not yet earning her diploma, she don't need to go and show her whole class that she's actually a phony.

I addressed this idea earlier in the thread. Rather than reiterate my initial point, I'm doing a straight copy/paste.

The thing is, there is an important distinction to be made here. There are two pieces to graduation. The first, a diploma, is the physical proof that you have completed the requirements mandated by the school district and board of education to attain a certain rank or status (in this case, high school graduate). The second piece, the graduation ceremony, is an event held to honor those who have completed their course of study. The two are mutually exclusive; being allowed to walk does not specifically indicate that you are a graduate any more than having the diploma means that you will get to walk at the ceremony (I actually knew someone in high school who completed the requirements and got their diploma, but because they were caught with drugs on the last day of school, they were barred from walking at commencement).

I liken the scenario to a marriage. Anyone can hold a marriage ceremony. You have gay weddings in states where gay marriage is not recognized, you have pagan handfastings, you have polygymous marriages, and all sorts of non-traditional weddings performed around the country that are not legally recognized by the state. You have to apply for a marriage license to be married in the eyes of the law, but it's not required to have a wedding ceremony. Similarly, you can get married by a justice of the peace without having a fancy ceremony around it. The ceremony and the legal paper, though they often exist together, are mutually exclusive.

So really, walking at commencement is strictly a ceremonial act. It is an event honoring those who have put in hard work to attain a particular goal. It is entirely up to the school to decide who should and shouldn't walk at commencement, there is no question about that. But I have to question the value in stopping someone from being honored at a purely ceremonial event when she is scheduled to complete the requirements within a few weeks. Clearly she has put in the work, and is set to have all the requirements completed; it's not as though she is returning for another year. She, through no fault of her own, contracted a life-threatening disease, and in spite of that obstacle, has managed to nearly complete her course of study. She's probably putting in more work than the majority of graduating seniors there; is it really harmful to the school if she is allowed to participate in this ceremony?

I recently attended a college graduation. Students who had units left to complete were allowed to walk across the stage; their names were marked with an asterisk in the program. I recall a similar situation at my own graduation. And I know that at both the graduations I walked in, we were not given our diplomas; those were mailed out later. When you divorce the legal side (diploma) from the ceremonial (walking the stage), there's not much rationale to prevent her from being allowed to participate. It's a misapplication of the idea that rules should never be broken. Let her walk, put an asterisk by her name in the program and be done with it.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

The thing is, there is an important distinction to be made here. There are two pieces to graduation. The first, a diploma, is the physical proof that you have completed the requirements mandated by the school district and board of education to attain a certain rank or status (in this case, high school graduate). The second piece, the graduation ceremony, is an event held to honor those who have completed their course of study. The two are mutually exclusive; being allowed to walk does not specifically indicate that you are a graduate any more than having the diploma means that you will get to walk at the ceremony (I actually knew someone in high school who completed the requirements and got their diploma, but because they were caught with drugs on the last day of school, they were barred from walking at commencement).

One minor clarification: the term "mutually exclusive" means that two events *cannot* occur together under *any* circumstances. Obviously in this case you can both receive a diploma and participate in the ceremony.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: thraashman

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Again, that does not constitute harm. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have sunk so low as a society that something this small and insignificant can get people so riled up. Life's rough people. That's the only universal truth there is.

I've already pointed out that, were it my decision, and assuming that the article is not leaving out critical pieces of information, she would be allowed to walk. I just don't understand why everyone thinks is such a big deal. Get over it people.

ZV

It's a big deal because this girl might not survive long enough to do anything bigger. This might well be the last accomplishment she gets to have in her life. If 3 months from now her cancer comes back hard and 6 months later she dies, what then? Sure she got a diploma, but she never got to walk and celebrate WITH HER FRIENDS. It's not even so much getting the diploma that matters to most people, it's celebrating that moment with the people close to you. She might not get more moments like this if any more at all, she's worked to try to catch up but nearly dying isn't easy to get over. Not on IS it a big deal it's a huge fucking deal. If ceremonies weren't big deals, then we wouldn't have them at all for anything.

But why is it a big deal? You still haven't answered that. She can celebrate with her friends at their individual parties. Those always had more celebration and enjoyable times than the school ceremonies did. Not walking at the school's ceremony doesn't stop her from celebrating with her friends and nothing is stopping her from having her own "graduation party" around the same time as all her friends have theirs.

You say, essentially, that ceremonies are a big deal because we have them and that we have them because they are a big deal. I ask you, why? Why are they a big deal?

Historically, the reason for ceremonies is the accomplishment they represent (an induction ceremony into a guild, a coronation ceremony for a monarch, a baptismal or confirmation ceremony in a church, etc). The value of a ceremony has not, historically, been intrinsic to the ceremony itself, but extrinsic and residing in an accomplishment or change of status.

This leads to the question then of why are we, as a society, so tied to ceremony when the real value is not in the ceremony but in the change of status or the accomplishment that traditionally accompanies the ceremony?

ZV

Do you understand what you say? I don't.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Special K
One minor clarification: the term "mutually exclusive" means that two events *cannot* occur together under *any* circumstances. Obviously in this case you can both receive a diploma and participate in the ceremony.

Oh. I've been using that phrase wrong for years. Thanks!

 

[HardcoreRobot]

... you have not graduated.

what do i win?