"You can't walk at graduation because...."

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,908
16,174
126
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
A high school diploma means shit these days. Just let her walk.

Alternately, "A high school diploma means shit these days. She shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony."

As I said, it cuts both ways.

ZV

Except for the cancer bit. She might not have much longer and it is something she would like to do. That is not asking for a lot from her part.

It would be neat if her class refuses to walk on stage if this doesn't get rectified.

Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Shit if the world runs on logic we would have wiped ourselves out by now.
 

zerocool1

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
4,486
1
81
femaven.blogspot.com
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: sdifox
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
A high school diploma means shit these days. Just let her walk.

Alternately, "A high school diploma means shit these days. She shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony."

As I said, it cuts both ways.

ZV

Except for the cancer bit. She might not have much longer and it is something she would like to do. That is not asking for a lot from her part.

It would be neat if her class refuses to walk on stage if this doesn't get rectified.

Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Shit if the world runs on logic we would have wiped ourselves out by now.

pardon the analogy but ZV sounds like a vulcan. (I've been watching a ton of Enterprise lately)
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,440
5,426
136
Originally posted by: mugs
We've had this discussion here before... and most people here have no sympathy for people like her.

Personally, I don't see the problem with letting her walk since she'll finish up over the summer. My college allowed that. I see no value in being so legalistic.

(Edited for clarity)

Being overly legalistic should be a crime ;)
 

oogabooga

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2003
7,806
3
81
ZV : I agree with most of what you say, even though I'm of the persuasion that they should let her walk. One thing I will contest though is that it probably would be harmful to her if she didn't walk. I don't really remember what it was like being a high schooler (okay, i do it was awkward and painful). But without having to deal with cancer I think I'd have been pretty bummed if I didn't get to walk, especially if it was influenced by factors outside my control.

having cancer is probably isolating enough as a high school student, not walking can't help the situation.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
A high school diploma means shit these days. Just let her walk.

Alternately, "A high school diploma means shit these days. She shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony."

As I said, it cuts both ways.

ZV

really? explain.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Participating the graduation ceremonies implicitly implies that you have completed the requirements. She has not - she can walk on the next cycle.

Well it's heart-wrenching I agree.

We already have dumbed down our education system enough so anyone can pass if they even try half-assed and still we have F-rated schools.

Our kids are a mess...unfortunately this young woman has to pay for that. If everyone did what they were supposed to, it would be a no-brainer.

 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Well said, and I actually agree with you.

However, while it's not harmful to the school to allow her to participate, it is likewise not harmful to her if the school does not allow her to participate.

In the end, while I think the school board is being overly uptight in this case, I think that it's damn silly that she is making a big deal of it. Essentially, I believe the girl and her mother are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's an empty ceremony. It means nothing. She should get over it. If she can't shrug off something this small, she's going to have big problems when she hits the real world.

ZV

What if you are wrong about that? What if walking is very important to her? No one here has the right to tell her why she should or shouldn't feel the way she does about the ceremony. Then there are her parents to consider. Maybe it is very important to them to watch their daughter walk instead of just getting the diploma in the mail after she finishes this last course over the summer.

The way I see it is that there are plenty of good reasons for her to walk and zero reasons why she shouldn't. No one in this thread has stated one reason where her actually walking would harm anyone. All of the reasons so far are "based on the principle of the thing" or "because a rule is a rule". Sure, life isn't always fair and there many things about it which are strictly measured by numbers and results only. However, not EVERYTHING in life is like that. It is a great thing to be able to be flexible in these situations. Also, I realize that there are rules regarding this sort of thing for reason. However, this particular rule was not made for this kind of situation what so ever. It is not as simple as just her not having one requirement. If it were, then it wouldn't have hit the news.

Also, I work for my counties school system and I can tell you that allowing her to walk is incredibly easy and harmless. It isn't the girl or her family that is making a mountain out of a molehill. It is the school that is doing that.
 

Bryophyte

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
13,430
13
81
That's just stupid. Most schools (including universities) allow people to walk if they will finish up over the summer. I know several people who got empty cases at graduation. When the ceremony is only held once a year, they don't make you come back a year later to walk through the ceremony with a bunch of people who weren't in your class.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Participating the graduation ceremonies implicitly implies that you have completed the requirements. She has not - she can walk on the next cycle.

Common Courtesy, an interesting choice for your username. Was it meant to be sarcastic?

 

R Nilla

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2006
3,835
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

Logically, she should walk in the ceremony closest to her intended date of completion. Assuming she will be finished in the summer, this year's ceremony is closer to her date of completion than next year's.

Furthermore, graduation ceremonies usually encompass the graduating class for a particular year. If she completes summer school she will still be graduating this year, class of 2008, and therefore will be part of this graduating class. It would not make sense for her to graduate next year, because she will not be part of the class of 2009. Just because the ceremony happens to occur before she will have technically completed her requirements for graduation should not necessarily mean that she should not be allowed to participate, since it is intended to encompass the graduates of this particular year.

The school's rule that students must complete their units before graduation, without exception, is illogical, since it does not take into account summer school cases like Leanna. That is, of course, assuming there is not a summer ceremony. Again, it makes more sense for summer school graduates to walk in the ceremony of the same year than it does to make them wait until the following year, or exclude them from the event entirely.
 

maziwanka

Lifer
Jul 4, 2000
10,415
1
0
Originally posted by: Aharami
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Participating the graduation ceremonies implicitly implies that you have completed the requirements. She has not - she can walk on the next cycle.

thats BS and cold hearted and you know it. the ceremony is mostly a social event. It has more sentimental value than anything. You want to walk along with all your classmates and friends, not with the class below. Let her participate in the ceremony but dont give her the diploma just yet. She can get the diploma when she finishes her courses. That's what I was allowed to do when I graduated from Rutgers. I was so bogged down with my engineering courses that I forgot to take an elective writing class. The Dean allowed me to walk that year. When I was called up, I received an empty envelope and got my actual diploma after I took the course over the summer. If a big uni like RU can do it, why cant a HS, esp for a girl who's gone thru so much?

The admins are being dicks

i agree (ninjja agrees too)
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV
 

preslove

Lifer
Sep 10, 2003
16,754
63
91
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

The harm is in demobilizing a cancer patient. This ceremony, especially with a speaker mentioning all her hard work during one of the speeches, would probably lift her spirits a lot.

Aren't schools supposed to acknowledge hard work and, you know, help students?
 

maziwanka

Lifer
Jul 4, 2000
10,415
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

fair enough, but this isn't at all what's being argued. obviously it means something to her (an irrational choice) and the school doesn't want her to walk (also an irrational choice) and in this case it seems like the school's decision is more irrational than hers. so let her walk. and from a purely emotional argument, the school needs to get the stick out of its ass and let her walk.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Well said, and I actually agree with you.

However, while it's not harmful to the school to allow her to participate, it is likewise not harmful to her if the school does not allow her to participate.

In the end, while I think the school board is being overly uptight in this case, I think that it's damn silly that she is making a big deal of it. Essentially, I believe the girl and her mother are making a mountain out of a molehill. It's an empty ceremony. It means nothing. She should get over it. If she can't shrug off something this small, she's going to have big problems when she hits the real world.

ZV

What if you are wrong about that? What if walking is very important to her? No one here has the right to tell her why she should or shouldn't feel the way she does about the ceremony. Then there are her parents to consider. Maybe it is very important to them to watch their daughter walk instead of just getting the diploma in the mail after she finishes this last course over the summer.

Ahh. The stench of relativism.

There is no rational basis for a person to feel badly about not being able to walk. A rational person will experience absolutely no harm from not walking. I say again, there is zero rational basis for it being important that she walks.

I have already said that I think the school is being too uptight about the issue. However, "it's important to me" is NOT a valid, rational, reason for something to be done. No-one, not one single person, has given a solid logical argument for letting her walk that does not cut just as well in the other direction.

The reasons I've seen:

- "It's important to her": Emotions are not valid logical bases for doing things.
- "It's not a big deal": If it's not a big deal, logically it shouldn't bother her, so this one supports both sides equally well.
- "She has cancer": Emotional appeal, no logical base.
- "Other schools do it": Commonality is not valid logical support.
- "She may not be around long enough to walk the next time": Emotional appeal, no logical base.

The entire situation is neutral. There are no valid reasons that do not support both sides equally well. On the balance, given that the rational supports are neutral, I think it should tilt towards emotion and if it were my decision I would let her walk. However, I am not about to get up in arms about the school board's decision.

I still say that if something this small bothers her enough for this kind of fuss, she is woefully ill-prepared for the real world and she needs to develop a thicker skin quickly. Anyone who could actually be harmed by missing their graduation in these circumstances needs to seriously re-evaluate their priorities in life.

ZV
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
In 2-3 years she'll realize how retarded walking at graduation is anyway and won't feel so bad about it.

Seriously, who gives a damn? Let her walk, why does it matter?
 

R Nilla

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2006
3,835
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

And that wasn't my point.

We can ignore harm entirely to avoid clouding this issue with moral judgments. The point is that by excluding her they are excluding a member of the graduating class for whom the ceremony is being held in the first place. Including her would be more rational than excluding her. The decision is by no means neutral.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: preslove
The harm is in demobilizing a cancer patient. This ceremony, especially with a speaker mentioning all her hard work during one of the speeches, would probably lift her spirits a lot.

Aren't schools supposed to acknowledge hard work and, you know, help students?

There is no rational basis for her to be demoralized (I assume that "demobilizing" was a typo, as she is not, in fact, "demobilized" if she is not allowed to walk at the ceremony). If not walking would have a negative effect on her, that is an irrational weakness on her part and is not the fault of the school.

Schools are supposed to teach students. That's all. They do not exist to be building self-esteem or lifting spirits. School is for learning. School is not for feeling all warm and fuzzy about yourself.

As I have said though, were it my own decision, she would walk. Assuming that there are not other reasons to believe that she would not pass in summer school that are left out of the article.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

And that wasn't my point.

We can ignore harm entirely to avoid clouding this issue with moral judgments. The point is that by excluding her they are excluding a member of the graduating class for whom the ceremony is being held in the first place. Including her would be more rational than excluding her. The decision is by no means neutral.

It is more rational to include only those who are certain to graduate.

You are appealing to an existing irrationality within the system (allowing other people who have not completed the requirements to walk) in order to support an additional irrationality. Invalid.

ZV
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,103
1,550
126
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

Ok, any cancer that requires two sugeries and weeks of radiation therapy is no small thing. It doesn't even say that she's better, just that this is the reason she's been out. So it's very likely (what with about 25% of all deaths in the US being cancer related) that she isn't able to live long enough to look back on this moment. In life we're often remembered for our accomplishments, and this may very well be the last one this girl has a real chance at.

The harm here is in not allowing a girl who wants nothing more than to graduate with her friends and classmates get the symbolic honor walking.

Hell at my school 1 week before graduation a junior classman was abducted and murdered. Everyone at graduation wore pins in memory, and the next year they called his name at graduation and gave his parents their son's diploma. Though technically he didn't complete that last year, so according to you the school shouldn't have done something like that.

Another example. I graduated college in December 2004. In March 2005 my grandfather died. I was his youngest grandchild and the last to graduate college. It meant a lot to me that I was able to graduate college and celebrate that moment with him before he passed away. Things like this can mean alot to someone.

If I were that classes Valedictorian I would recognize her in my speech and ask that the entire class walk out right now if they don't allow her to walk with them, and then proceed to walk out myself. What you and some others in here fail to realize is that it's very often a good idea to allow our emotions to dictate actions. It makes the world a better place.
 

R Nilla

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2006
3,835
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
It is more rational to include only those who are certain to graduate.

Fair enough.

You are appealing to an existing irrationality within the system (allowing other people who have not completed the requirements to walk) in order to support an additional irrationality. Invalid.

ZV

I am not operating under the assumption that the requirements must be met before graduation (the school's rule which is the source of their decision), as it does not take into account those who may complete the requirements during summer school (assuming there is not a summer ceremony). I do not find the school's rule to be logical for this reason.

I am basing my argument off of the premise that a graduation ceremony is intended to encompass all graduates of that year (in this case class of 2008), in which case it is more logical to include her in this ceremony than in next year's. I already stated this in an earlier post.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
At least not for university. My university anyone could sign up for graduation. You got your degree in the mail 8 weeks later if you met the requirements.

This H.S blows
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: thraashman
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: R Nilla
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Nothing in the article suggests that her cancer is terminal, and you can bet that the writer would have mentioned that in order to enhance the emotional appeal if it were so.

Additionally, the fact that she wants to do it does not address my point that she shouldn't be so fixated on an empty ceremony. How long she has to live is irrelevant, logically, to my point. Divorce emotion from your thinking and base this off of pure logic.

ZV

Logically, the simplest solution for all parties involved would be to let her walk during this ceremony. What harm is done in allowing this to take place?

There is no harm done by her not walking either.

My point is simply that walking or not walking should, rationally, be neutral.

ZV

Ok, any cancer that requires two sugeries and weeks of radiation therapy is no small thing. It doesn't even say that she's better, just that this is the reason she's been out. So it's very likely (what with about 25% of all deaths in the US being cancer related) that she isn't able to live long enough to look back on this moment. In life we're often remembered for our accomplishments, and this may very well be the last one this girl has a real chance at.

The harm here is in not allowing a girl who wants nothing more than to graduate with her friends and classmates get the symbolic honor walking.

Hell at my school 1 week before graduation a junior classman was abducted and murdered. Everyone at graduation wore pins in memory, and the next year they called his name at graduation and gave his parents their son's diploma. Though technically he didn't complete that last year, so according to you the school shouldn't have done something like that.

Another example. I graduated college in December 2004. In March 2005 my grandfather died. I was his youngest grandchild and the last to graduate college. It meant a lot to me that I was able to graduate college and celebrate that moment with him before he passed away. Things like this can mean alot to someone.

If I were that classes Valedictorian I would recognize her in my speech and ask that the entire class walk out right now if they don't allow her to walk with them, and then proceed to walk out myself. What you and some others in here fail to realize is that it's very often a good idea to allow our emotions to dictate actions. It makes the world a better place.

Again, that does not constitute harm. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have sunk so low as a society that something this small and insignificant can get people so riled up. Life's rough people. That's the only universal truth there is.

I've already pointed out that, were it my decision, and assuming that the article is not leaving out critical pieces of information, she would be allowed to walk. I just don't understand why everyone thinks is such a big deal. Get over it people.

ZV
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: R Nilla
I am basing my argument off of the premise that a graduation ceremony is intended to encompass all graduates of that year (in this case class of 2008), in which case it is more logical to include her in this ceremony than in next year's. I already stated this in an earlier post.

In that case, I disagree with your premise and we'll have to agree to be at an impasse.

ZV
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: zerocool1

pardon the analogy but ZV sounds like a vulcan. (I've been watching a ton of Enterprise lately)

You're right, and it's getting to be pretty absurd.