Yet another torture thread . . .

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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Ok, just to gauge where the pro-torture crowd really reside, here's a hypothetical situation that really could happen:

ANeutralReporter (ANR), a citizen of Switzerland, announces that in order to be able to effectively research and report both sides of the Jihadist-versus-the-West, he will not take sides in the "war". He wishes to visit both "enemy camps," and in order to gather information effectively - without risk to himself - he promises that he will not reveal any crucial operational information he discovers that might give an advantage to one side or the other. His objective is to understand and report on what motivates each side, and to get the "inside stories" of what's going on behind the scenes. He further states that if he is taken hostage by Jihadists, the West is to refuse to negotiate, and if he dies, he dies - this is the only approach he can think of that may help to protect him.

Over several years, ANR builds a reputation for impartiality and integrity. He reports both flattering and unflattering portraits of both sides. He discovers much interesting information about both Jihadists and American warriors that shows that what has been reported in the conventional press is often inaccurate - both to the good and to the bad. ANR is able to confer with sources deep within America's political and military establishments, and also within Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and other Jihadist/fundamentalist organizations.

One day, because of the instability in Pakistan, a nuclear device falls into the hands of Jihadists. Everyone knows that there will be an attempt to detonate the device in a major Western city. Western security services go on high alert, but very little is discovered. ANR, meanwhile, continues his investigations, and it becomes obvious from his reportage that he knows a lot about what has happened with the nuclear device and what the Jihadists' intentions are.

But true to his word, ANR does NOT reveal any information that might help the West. When asked by western security services what he knows, he refuses to say anything. As justification, he states: "If I tell you anything, I will no longer be able to do my job. Not only that, my life will be forfeit." Everyone knows that what he is saying is true.

So the question arises: Should the west FORCE ANR to reveal what he knows? If necessary, should they torture him?

What do YOU think?

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Do you write for 24 or something? Now I remember why I quit watching that stupid show.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: shira
So the question arises: Should the west FORCE ANR to reveal what he knows? If necessary, should they torture him?

What do YOU think?

To me, that's easy. Even if you think torture could be justified on some people in some situations, you'd be hard-pressed to justify using it on someone who is innocent of any moral evil. If ANR didn't actually plant the device or was otherwise not involved in building it/getting it into a target location, ANR is innocent of involvement in the murder of those victims, and doesn't deserve to have his/her human rights violated.
 

Skitzer

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2000
4,414
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ANR will have to live with the fact that his silence resulted in hundreds of thousands of lives being lost because he felt a moral obligation to withhold crucial information to keep his job.
He will have to live with his his conscience for the rest of his life. He will go down in history.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
i think you are an idiot... the reason that you are free to think up stupid shit like this is that a lot of others have given their lives for their society, dumbass...

you think that the life of one self aggrandizing reporter is worth more than the life of a city full of people? i guess this is where all this stupid shit going on leads to... you sure lucky that there are still the dumb rednecks that you despise so much that are willing to protect dreamers like you...

and does your 'moral reporter' get anyone that he knows out of the city before it's bombed? or does he let his family and friends get killed like a good disinterested party?



 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
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As long as the nuclear device detonates over you and your family only, I would say no. If it is over me and mine, yes.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
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Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: shira
So the question arises: Should the west FORCE ANR to reveal what he knows? If necessary, should they torture him?

What do YOU think?

To me, that's easy. Even if you think torture could be justified on some people in some situations, you'd be hard-pressed to justify using it on someone who is innocent of any moral evil. If ANR didn't actually plant the device or was otherwise not involved in building it/getting it into a target location, ANR is innocent of involvement in the murder of those victims, and doesn't deserve to have his/her human rights violated.

If he could have stopped it he is not innocent. That's blood on his hands.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Just like almost every other hypothetical situations posed in here, this one is completely nonsensical.

There isn't a profession in the world in which a person is expected to withhold vital information when the lives of innocents are on the line. Soldiers of all ranks are ordered to disobey illegal orders and protect innocents, not their superiors/comrades. Lawyers will report information about imminent crimes to the police. Doctors will divulge personal information to family and/or authorities to save a person's life. And yes, journalists will go straight to the police if they get wind of a murder plot.

In short, withholding information would never be in a true professional's mind. Sophie's Choice was a movie, not reality.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: cwjerome
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: shira
So the question arises: Should the west FORCE ANR to reveal what he knows? If necessary, should they torture him?

What do YOU think?

To me, that's easy. Even if you think torture could be justified on some people in some situations, you'd be hard-pressed to justify using it on someone who is innocent of any moral evil. If ANR didn't actually plant the device or was otherwise not involved in building it/getting it into a target location, ANR is innocent of involvement in the murder of those victims, and doesn't deserve to have his/her human rights violated.

If he could have stopped it he is not innocent. That's blood on his hands.

Maybe - that's a tough call. If one of your friends leaves a party a little ripped, and you know he's going to drive, are you responsible for any resulting death if he kills someone on the way home and you failed to stop him?
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.

We get it. It's not torture. Right.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,573
1
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Originally posted by: Skitzer
ANR will have to live with the fact that his silence resulted in hundreds of thousands of lives being lost because he felt a moral obligation to withhold crucial information to keep his job.
He will have to live with his his conscience for the rest of his life. He will go down in history.

yep. And for those who think inaction won't make you infamous, see James Buchanan
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Should? Yes, one person's right vs. 18 million life suppose the bomb is detonated in New York, I don't know what kind of person can live with himself to see millions die just so he can continue to make money off his reporting.

Lawful? Probably not since ANR is not an enemy combatant.

Would CIA do it? Yeah and if they are really good at their job, no one would know they did it.

What is liberal gonna say? Who give a f when millions life are saved.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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ANR has just demonstrated that there are other ways to obtain intelligence besides torture. Go ANR.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,888
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.

You haven't? Some people on this board alone have come out and say they favor torture. (Fear No Evil for one if I remember right)
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.

You mean other than several members of this forum?
 

biggestmuff

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2001
8,201
2
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.

The Pro-Abortion folks?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Who exactly is this 'pro torture' crowd you speak of?

I have never seen anyone come out in favor of torture.

You mean other than several members of this forum?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonks also missed a certain Mr. Chaney, Mr. Woo, and quite a few other member of GWB&co
who conspired to violate our laws and engaged in torture, even if they had others handle the actual dirty work.

But going back to the OP on this thread, that argument is no different than the Alan Dersowitz argument that the ends justify the means with a small variant. And the small variant dooms the argument, we might have such a trusted reporter maybe semi-aware of plans, but such a reporter would only get full details about nukes being snatched long after the nukes were kidnapped.

At least the Alan Dersawitz scenario was purer argument, because it required a certainty that the perp had the knowledge of how to defuse the bomb, the certainty that the bomb was in a general vicinity, the certainty that there was no time left to evacuate the innocent people, and the certainty of only a very limited amount of time before the bomb went off. The partial problem and the total moral bankruptcy that doomed GWB&co is that they allowed torture to go from something that MIGHT be justified on ONLY rare rare rare occasions to morph into the routine of standard operating procedure.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
The partial problem and the total moral bankruptcy that doomed GWB&co is that they allowed torture to go from something that MIGHT be justified on ONLY rare rare rare occasions to morph into the routine of standard operating procedure.

And obviously, that was the fatal flaw of the Bush policy regarding torture. But what about the first part of your post, regarding the Dershowitz argument, are you saying it's justified then, or do you disagree with him?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Mursilis asks a fair question with, "And obviously, that was the fatal flaw of the Bush policy regarding torture. But what about the first part of your post, regarding the Dershowitz argument, are you saying it's justified then, or do you disagree with him?"

For the record, I disagree with the Dersowitz argument and believe torture is never justified. But at least I understand how narrow in scope the argument is, and while it may happen 20 times a week in various made for TV programs, its very very very rare in the real world.

So basically our thread OP has not made any different argument.