biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 19,878
- 6,980
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.....it's about beeing able to view society from another view than your own. Of course where I live affect my opinions as it does for all people around the world, and maybe I don't have a clue, but I would like you to try and convince me with good arguments instead of just making a flat statement about me not haveing a clue. I would like to be better informed but as I am not, I need the help from you to make me understand.
I was under the impression that if you grow up in a neighborhood where crime is high, unemployoment high an education level is low it's not quite as easy to get a job, as if you grow up in a middle class area. You probably need to work a bit harder as your surroundings, friends etc. might not be prime quality for a succesfull life. The toughest can bust their ass and make it, but I would think that some with a good "background" might not find it just as hard (I know I don't) to get a good education and jobs. They/we have our friends and relatives to help us if needed.
I think that our disagreement roots in how much the surrounding society affect the individual. I believe that where we grow up and with which people we grow up affects our chances of succes very much, you apperently don't. Correct me if I'm wrong.
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 19,878
- 6,980
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I guess you wouldn't force them to do certain jobs? And I also think it would be good if the jobs that were offered was taken by those people. I would just like to hear a suggestion that in real life could get them to do so. Apperently saying they should get their lazy ass up and do some hard work doesn't seem to work, even if you would like it to. How would you suggest to get them to think like you and your grandparents who had the will to stand up for themself?
Excellent article. I'm sick and tired of constant stories of how these people are being screwed over and are victims of an evil society. Most of them are lazy parasites, If they worked and supported themselves like the rest of us they wouldn't be in that situation.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
You are wrong. I agree very much with your obvious statement. Which is why I look at your country and find it wanting. It's tiny, sheltered, bigoted, and nondiverse, yet for some reason many of its citizens feel compelled to post on internet forums about the inherent issues that my country deals with in being populous, open, tolerate, and diverse.
Welfare sucks. American laws have to be changed around it.
We cannot continue to feed people who don't want to help themselves and not expect anything in return from the help provided.
Immigrants manage to come to the USA and find a job that pays almost nothing without even speaking a word of english, yet, these american born "english speaking" "people"
cannot find a job.
They would if we traded welfare for army recruits, or for road paving jobs. I would even have people under welfare counting sand grains to make them earn their food stamps.
I don't understand why americans put up with stuff like this!
We cannot continue to feed people who don't want to help themselves and not expect anything in return from the help provided.
Immigrants manage to come to the USA and find a job that pays almost nothing without even speaking a word of english, yet, these american born "english speaking" "people"
cannot find a job.
They would if we traded welfare for army recruits, or for road paving jobs. I would even have people under welfare counting sand grains to make them earn their food stamps.
I don't understand why americans put up with stuff like this!
Svnla
Lifer
- Nov 10, 2003
- 17,986
- 1,388
- 126
NO has one of the highest murder rate in the country, corruption from politicians to cops, to judges to lawyers. I can go on and on but you get the point.
You can't pay me enough to live there.
BTW, I don't understand why those natives born couldn't get out of welfare and poverty after generations and after generations. Yet, immigrants like myself come to the US <without a penny in our pockets>, and within a few years, we have college degrees, good paying jobs, nice cars, and nice houses.
The bottom line, you have to really, really WANT TO better yourself if you want to get out of the poverty cycle. Stop blaming racists and this and that.
If I can do it, anyone can do it too, unless you are handicap or mental incapable. How about learn to be RESPONSIBLE and have PRIDE in yourself.
You can't pay me enough to live there.
BTW, I don't understand why those natives born couldn't get out of welfare and poverty after generations and after generations. Yet, immigrants like myself come to the US <without a penny in our pockets>, and within a few years, we have college degrees, good paying jobs, nice cars, and nice houses.
The bottom line, you have to really, really WANT TO better yourself if you want to get out of the poverty cycle. Stop blaming racists and this and that.
If I can do it, anyone can do it too, unless you are handicap or mental incapable. How about learn to be RESPONSIBLE and have PRIDE in yourself.
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 19,878
- 6,980
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So because I live in Denmark my opinoins doesn't hold any value? That's relly open minded.
If you prefer that I don't speak my opinion please tell me so. But actually I think that sharing views might give eachother some insight or atleast get to know what the other part thinks. You seem to have made up your mind so I don't think there's any reason to continue this discussion.But my final statement in this will be that welfare doesn't lead to looting, poverty leads to looting.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
No... you don't have the right to insult my country as though your country is perfect. We have to deal with difficult problems that your country does not. That which worked in your country might not work in ours, and you have no right to pretend otherwise. We have medium-sized cities bigger than your country (and we allow the freedom of religion).Originally posted by: biostud
So because I live in Denmark my opinoins doesn't hold any value? That's relly open minded.
But my final statement in this will be that welfare doesn't lead to looting, poverty leads to looting.
And I disagree with your final statement. Correlation does not equal causation. But what we do know about welfare is that it propagates poverty. It may give people food and shelter but it does not give them hope.
Originally posted by: Vic
No... you don't have the right to insult my country as though your country is perfect. We have to deal with difficult problems that your country does not. That which worked in your country might not work in ours, and you have no right to pretend otherwise. We have medium-sized cities bigger than your country (and we allow the freedom of religion).Originally posted by: biostud
So because I live in Denmark my opinoins doesn't hold any value? That's relly open minded.
But my final statement in this will be that welfare doesn't lead to looting, poverty leads to looting.
And I disagree with your final statement. Correlation does not equal causation. But what we do know about welfare is that it propagates poverty. It may give people food and shelter but it does not give them hope.
Vic, where did he "insult our country"? Seems to me he is just offering his opinion as he sees it...don't really see the problem myself.
You avoided the question. You accused him of insulting our country....I just don't see it. You seem to be reacting to where he lives more than his actual posts. I never saw him insult anything about this country, if anything, it was the other way around.
You seem to react quite strongly when you encounter a different view than yours IMO...
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 19,878
- 6,980
- 136
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Ahhh, well that makes sense. I was going soley by what I read in this thread.
I'm never said our society was perfect we have lots of problems with the welfare system and people not actually beeing able just to work if that's really what they want. I could easily criticize lots of problems about the danish welfare system. Actually I'm member of a party in Denmark who want to reform the welfare system, by doing dramatically changes of our taxation system, so that it will pay off to work harder. (Guess you would never have thought of that)
I'm just trying to play the devils advocate here as in many other threads to make you realize that there can be other perspectives of a case. Everyone was just patting eachother on the backs not questioning the article and it's views and that's not really very interresting is it?
Vic I would like to find a place where I've ever speaked bad about US as a country and as a nation. Such an argument would really need evidence in my opinion. If you find one I would like to apologize at is was never my intention.
I question the politics and how some part of the US society works, as I here in Denamrk question how we do our politics. As I mentioned I'm an active member of a politcal party in Denmark, and that's one of the way I try to help making a better society. I admit I know very little about the living in US society as I've never lived there, and I would actullay like to try to live in US for a year or two to see and understand why we in so many ways are similar but still so different. It intrigues me
I would like to talk about the problems of the danish welfarestate if you would like to, but it would be easier if someone talked very strongly (even more than me) for a more socialist society. Unfortunately that's probably not going to happen on a US based forum. There wouldn't be much discussion going on if we both where pointing to the negative sides.
I can mention the two largest problems currently about our welfare states:
It's very bad at getting people who comes to Denmark and would like to work to actually work. It's very complicated for a foreigner, and we loose a lot of good workforce and creating people who are dependent on it even though they had the hope and will when they came to Denmark. That's an area where US is far more succesfull, and I'm very shamefull about how we treat people with a different ethnical background in Denmark. It's very big problem with such a system.
The other is that we keep many (and I mean REALLY many, don't have the figures now) on welfare that could do some kind of work, but because it's "easier" too keep them away from working becasue of all kinds of beauracracy and strange agreemnets between unions and the employers, it's very inflexible.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
Excellent post. If I offended earlier, I apologize.Originally posted by: biostud
I'm never said our society was perfect we have lots of problems with the welfare system and people not actually beeing able just to work if that's really what they want. I could easily criticize lots of problems about the danish welfare system. Actually I'm member of a party in Denmark who want to reform the welfare system, by doing dramatically changes of our taxation system, so that it will pay off to work harder. (Guess you would never have thought of that)
I'm just trying to play the devils advocate here as in many other threads to make you realize that there can be other perspectives of a case. Everyone was just patting eachother on the backs not questioning the article and it's views and that's not really very interresting is it?
Vic I would like to find a place where I've ever speaked bad about US as a country and as a nation. Such an argument would really need evidence in my opinion. If you find one I would like to apologize at is was never my intention.
I question the politics and how some part of the US society works, as I here in Denamrk question how we do our politics. As I mentioned I'm an active member of a politcal party in Denmark, and that's one of the way I try to help making a better society. I admit I know very little about the living in US society as I've never lived there, and I would actullay like to try to live in US for a year or two to see and understand why we in so many ways are similar but still so different. It intrigues me
I would like to talk about the problems of the danish welfarestate if you would like to, but it would be easier if someone talked very strongly (even more than me) for a more socialist society. Unfortunately that's probably not going to happen on a US based forum. There wouldn't be much discussion going on if we both where pointing to the negative sides.
I can mention the two largest problems currently about our welfare states:
It's very bad at getting people who comes to Denmark and would like to work to actually work. It's very complicated for a foreigner, and we loose a lot of good workforce and creating people who are dependent on it even though they had the hope and will when they came to Denmark. That's an area where US is far more succesfull, and I'm very shamefull about how we treat people with a different ethnical background in Denmark. It's very big problem with such a system.
The other is that we keep many (and I mean REALLY many, don't have the figures now) on welfare that could do some kind of work, but because it's "easier" too keep them away from working becasue of all kinds of beauracracy and strange agreemnets between unions and the employers, it's very inflexible.
I was composing a rather long response to it, but unfortunately it got lost through accidentally clicking the wrong button at the time. I'll try to recapture a bit of it.
Your last paragraph illustrates the key (though mostly overlooked) problem with welfare in America. It has essentially become nothing more than a subsidized unemployment program. A "don't look for work and threaten our jobs" program. In fact, this has become the primary reason for welfare in America, especially among the union-heavy Democrats, rather than the altruistic "help the plight of the poor" agenda that they claim. Generation after generation of welfare recipients are being paid the bare minimum of subsistence solely for the purpose of keeping them off the employment rolls. We are, to borrow from the ancient parable, giving people fish so that they will not learn how to fish.
Is it any wonder they turn to crime? Not at all. People will seek work even when you pay them not to, and especially when you pay them very little not to. And there, with our draconian drug prohibition laws, you find a make-work program for law enforcement. One problem is created in order for a handy solution to be provided. But that solution is also a problem, and so forth a millions times over.
I welcome you to visit America. Someday I do hope to visit Denmark (one of my great-grandfathers immigrated to America from there). If you do come to America though, with the idea of understanding it, you will need to visit many parts of it. Don't be fooled by the McDonalds everywhere you go and other such corporate homogenizations, it is very diverse.
ed21x
Diamond Member
- Oct 12, 2001
- 5,411
- 8
- 81
i live in oakland. i can tell you that this article is dead on. after living for so many years year, i can tell you that people who are living in a lower economic state re mainly people who choose to be in this lifestyle, or those that don't have the drive or work ethic to make their way up. If you don't believe me, feel free to come to my part of the Bay Area and I'll give you a personnal tour. Just don't hide behind me when walking down the streets because the ghetto isn't some giddy Nike Commercial like all the suburban yuppies are use to imagining.
It doesn't work because they keep getting free money. They also realize the benefits of abusing the welfare system in its various forms.
Sure I would make them take the jobs. There are jobs out there and they don't take them because they don't WANT the job, or it doesn't pay enough to maintain their current lifestyle? Tough sh!t, change your lifestyle. Don't buy new clothes, or shoes, or couches or tvs or video games or any of that other consumer crap. Wasn't this seen when hurricane survivors were buying consumer electroics and crap with the $2000 debit cards the govt gave them?
Apparantly for a large majority of the welfare community that seems to be a huge problem. They want to life like the bread winners, but work like the village drunk. You can't budget, then fall on your ass. You can't I say keep an eagles eye on these people and cut them down if they abuse the system.
I have no suggestions for them in the way of words, nothing works, only checks "motivate" . Cut off their free money, make them go flat broke. My grandparents came over here with nothing except a half change of clothes. If you must reduce people down to that in order to make them act, then so be it.
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