Yet another fast food worker strike

[Matt1970]

I get it, dude. You believe there is a free lunch, one simply has to tear it from the hands of the evil rich. Good luck with that. But if you truly believe it's all about demand and putting more wealth in the hands of those who will spend it rather than those who earned it, why not argue for setting the minimum wage at $30? Hell, why not $300? I'll promise to consume my ass off if you can make me rich with no effort on my part.

As far as changing the minimum wage to $15 gradually, gradually offsets some of the pain but not the consequences. The franchise owners earn a tiny bit from the employees; the franchise itself earns a small amount from the franchise owners. Looking at the relative costs I showed should let you know there's no magic pot of cash to grab, but it becomes a matter of faith, and as such there's nothing I can post to change your beliefs.

I will never understand how people think taking money from business owners and giving it to employees boosts the economy.

 

[ivwshane]

How on Earth are the ten largest publicly held dining chains' profit margins "cherry picked data"?

You're arguing in favor of changing the wages of over a third of all workers by government fiat. That's hardly a small subset of the US economy either; it would affect almost every facet of our economy, since these workers are not segregated in one area but are spread throughout our economy. No one would be immune to the increased costs, and low wage industries would be devastated.

Lol! Are you saying that the larger the business is the larger it's profit margin is? I suspect not as your examples prove you wrong.

Profit margin has nothing to do with a businesses size. Nor are the top businesses profit margins representative of the industry as a whole.

That's all besides the point and not really important to your argument. Your argument if I understand you correctly is that this large increase in mw will have a negative impact due to the large number of people who currently make less than $15. It seems logical when only looking at it in passing, however, the data, as I've pointed out numerous times doesn't support your conclusion.


Also every study I have read shows that any raise in minimum wage increases GDP by quite a bit even if you were to factor in potential job losses (which as I have pointed out, shows little to no impact on employment rate).

So once again, you link to opinion and what amounts to localized anecdotal evidence to support your position while I link to actual historical impacts of raising the minimum wage to support my opinion. Which one do you want to put money on?

 

[ivwshane]

I will never understand how people think taking money from business owners and giving it to employees boosts the economy.

Because you don't understand how business works. I could point you to the classic example used in middle school history but I'd suspect you'd find a way to discredit it so why bother?



I'm sure you'd say that a company that found itself with high turn over and low quality employees who remedied those issues by doubling their pay and cutting their hours in half was just a one off and probably didn't end up to be ranked #8 in the Fortune 500.

I mean history doesn't tell us anything, your gut is smarter than that.

 

[Matt1970]

Because you don't understand how business works. I could point you to the classic example used in middle school history but I'd suspect you'd find a way to discredit it so why bother?



I'm sure you'd say that a company that found itself with high turn over and low quality employees who remedied those issues by doubling their pay and cutting their hours in half was just a one off and probably didn't end up to be ranked #8 in the Fortune 500.

I mean history doesn't tell us anything, your gut is smarter than that.

That's funny, I have only been running my own business for the last 13 years. If a business needs to pay more to get quality employees then that is a different story. The example you used sounds like they were trying to pay below market value. Back to the point, taking $20 out of the hand of a business owner and giving it to an employee will have a net effect of zero on the economy. They damn well could be spending it in the same store the business owner would. And do you honestly thing doubling a McDonalds employees salary is going to make them more efficient? McDonalds spends all kinds of money finding more efficient ways to do their operations.

 

[Matt1970]

Also every study I have read shows that any raise in minimum wage increases GDP by quite a bit even if you were to factor in potential job losses (which as I have pointed out, shows little to no impact on employment rate).

Min wage in 1981 was $3.35 and wasn't increased till 1990 to $3.80 and then to $4.25 in 1991. Care to show us where this increase "by quite a bit" is?

http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex..._gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:USA:CHN&hl=en&dl=en

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

 

[Victorian Gray]

I will never understand how people think taking money from business owners and giving it to employees boosts the economy.

So employees spending their wages don't contribute to the economy?

 

[Matt1970]

So employees spending their wages don't contribute to the economy?

How is an employee spending money better than a business owner spending money?

 

[Victorian Gray]

How is an employee spending money better than a business owner spending money?

As of a couple of years ago total wages and salaries paid out in the US was just over $6 trillion dollars/year.

What market in the world is the largest for most American companies that provide goods and/or services?

$6 trillion dollars, the majority of which is spent rather than saved.

EDIT: Not sure better is the correct word to use. Maybe 'more effective' or 'efficient use' of money in terms of general economic benefit are more appropriate ways to look at the issue.

 

[nehalem256]

Assuming the goal is to help families trying to survive on minimum wage, a much better idea is to increase the earned income credit. Minimum wage increases would also benefit teenagers and families with two wage earners. Increasing the EIC instead would provide less incentive to reduce hours or raise prices.

More importantly welfare benefits are paid for by taxing largely rich people.

Minimum wage increases are paid for by increased cost of goods and services at places at Walmart and McDonald. Guess who shops there? HINT: Its not rich people

 

[ivwshane]

More importantly welfare benefits are paid for by taxing largely rich people.

Minimum wage increases are paid for by increased cost of goods and services at places at Walmart and McDonald. Guess who shops there? HINT: Its not rich people

Except as has already been pointed out, the increases in goods and services are minimal.

Don't bother reading the links or anything, it's not like you ever educate your worthless self.

Hell! You don't even have the balls to answer a simple question put forth to you.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36700528&postcount=497

Go fuck a toaster!

 

[ivwshane]

Min wage in 1981 was $3.35 and wasn't increased till 1990 to $3.80 and then to $4.25 in 1991. Care to show us where this increase "by quite a bit" is?

http://www.google.com/publicdata/ex..._gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:USA:CHN&hl=en&dl=en

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

Feel free to read any of the studies I linked to

 

[ivwshane]

That's funny, I have only been running my own business for the last 13 years. If a business needs to pay more to get quality employees then that is a different story. The example you used sounds like they were trying to pay below market value. Back to the point, taking $20 out of the hand of a business owner and giving it to an employee will have a net effect of zero on the economy. They damn well could be spending it in the same store the business owner would. And do you honestly thing doubling a McDonalds employees salary is going to make them more efficient? McDonalds spends all kinds of money finding more efficient ways to do their operations.

Oh, so what you are saying is that you don't have any profit because you spend it all? You are full of shit and I'd ask you to back up your claim with facts but I know that's just an exercise in futility. My links have already shown you estimates of how much the GDP would increase if the minimum wage was raised. Businesses typically don't spend more money unless demand increases, where does demand come from Matt? Who do you sell your services to Matt? By your logic, cutting employee wages should increase demand or add to the GDP, how?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth

Notice the shrinking GDP growth when there wasn't a minimum wage increase in the 2000-2007 (except for the spike in 2003, guess what that was from).

 

[Veliko]

I will never understand how people think taking money from business owners and giving it to employees boosts the economy.

How is an employee spending money better than a business owner spending money?

Lower earners spend more of their disposable income than higher earners do.

By paying the lower earners more they will go out and spend it on iPhones, consoles, clothes, and all the other luxuries associated with our consumer economy.

 

[dmcowen674]

The pitchforks are warming up:

9-10-2014

http://eater.com/archives/2014/09/10/chipotle-workers-quit-by-leaving-epic-sign-in-window.php

Chipotle Workers Quit By Leaving Epic Sign in Window



A Chipotle location in State College, Pennsylvania was forced to temporarily close today after workers walked off the job, announcing their departure with a provocative sign in the restaurant window. As StateCollege.com reports, employees at the location near Penn State University announced the closure by writing: "Want to know why we are closed? Ask our corporate offices why their employees are forced to work in borderline sweatshop conditions."

 

[Matt1970]

Feel free to read any of the studies I linked to

If your studies claim a raise in the Min wage increases GDP, I just proved them wrong.

You are full of shit and I'd ask you to back up your claim with facts but I know that's just an exercise in futility. My links have already shown you estimates of how much the GDP would increase if the minimum wage was raised. .

So now it's an estimate? Feel free to look at history pal. Look at any of the times we raised the min wage and then look at GDP. It proves what I have been saying all along that raising the min wage just takes money out of one person's pocket and puts it in another. There is a no boost to the economy.

Notice the shrinking GDP growth when there wasn't a minimum wage increase in the 2000-2007 (except for the spike in 2003, guess what that was from).

Except there wasn't an increase in min wage from 1997. GDP only declined in 2000-20002 and that was because on the dot-com crash, not because of a lack of min wage hikes.

 

[Matt1970]

Lower earners spend more of their disposable income than higher earners do.

By paying the lower earners more they will go out and spend it on iPhones, consoles, clothes, and all the other luxuries associated with our consumer economy.

And that money goes right to China. And rich are not stuffing their money in mattresses.

 

[cyclohexane]

And that money goes right to China. And rich are not stuffing their money in mattresses.

The rich sock their money away in trusts, estates, and empty mansions. Basically dead money in bank accounts that does nothing for stimulating the economy.

 

[ivwshane]

If your studies claim a raise in the Min wage increases GDP, I just proved them wrong.



So now it's an estimate? Feel free to look at history pal. Look at any of the times we raised the min wage and then look at GDP. It proves what I have been saying all along that raising the min wage just takes money out of one person's pocket and puts it in another. There is a no boost to the economy.


Except there wasn't an increase in min wage from 1997. GDP only declined in 2000-20002 and that was because on the dot-com crash, not because of a lack of min wage hikes.

What the fuck are you talking about? Your own link says there were several raises in the 90's, do you even know what you are looking at?

I'm curious as to how you think you proved multiple studies wrong when you provided no data. I'm especially curious as to how you think businesses would grow GDP by not raising the minimum wage, ie doing the same thing we are doing now? According to your brilliant observation during the 2000-2007 time frame when there wasn't a minimum wage increase we should see a raise in GDP, but there isn't now is there?

So by all means go ahead and link to a study that shows not raising the minimum wage increases GDP more than raising it.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

The pitchforks are warming up:

9-10-2014

http://eater.com/archives/2014/09/10/chipotle-workers-quit-by-leaving-epic-sign-in-window.php

Chipotle Workers Quit By Leaving Epic Sign in Window



A Chipotle location in State College, Pennsylvania was forced to temporarily close today after workers walked off the job, announcing their departure with a provocative sign in the restaurant window. As StateCollege.com reports, employees at the location near Penn State University announced the closure by writing: "Want to know why we are closed? Ask our corporate offices why their employees are forced to work in borderline sweatshop conditions."

They're free to strike or try to unionize to get better working conditions if they're so upset.

 

[boomerang]

The rich sock their money away in trusts, estates, and empty mansions. Basically dead money in bank accounts that does nothing for stimulating the economy.

A+ on the talking points regurgitation. Have you given any thought to a career in community organizing?

 

[Matt1970]

What the fuck are you talking about? Your own link says there were several raises in the 90's, do you even know what you are looking at?

I'm curious as to how you think you proved multiple studies wrong when you provided no data. I'm especially curious as to how you think businesses would grow GDP by not raising the minimum wage, ie doing the same thing we are doing now? According to your brilliant observation during the 2000-2007 time frame when there wasn't a minimum wage increase we should see a raise in GDP, but there isn't now is there?

So by all means go ahead and link to a study that shows not raising the minimum wage increases GDP more than raising it.

I never claimed there were no raises in the 90's. The min wage in 1997 was $5.15 and wasn't raised again till 2007. The only time during that period that GDP was down was 2000 to 2002. If you want to try and blame that on a lack of a min wage hike go ahead but the trend would need to have continued to 2007 for it to be true and it didn't.

 

[Veliko]

And that money goes right to China. And rich are not stuffing their money in mattresses.

Rather being deliberately obtuse, why not respond properly?

Try again:

I will never understand how people think taking money from business owners and giving it to employees boosts the economy.

Lower earners spend more of their disposable income than higher earners do.

By paying the lower earners more they will go out and spend it on iPhones, consoles, clothes, and all the other luxuries associated with our consumer economy.

 

[Angry Irishman]

The pitchforks are warming up:

9-10-2014

http://eater.com/archives/2014/09/10/chipotle-workers-quit-by-leaving-epic-sign-in-window.php

Chipotle Workers Quit By Leaving Epic Sign in Window



A Chipotle location in State College, Pennsylvania was forced to temporarily close today after workers walked off the job, announcing their departure with a provocative sign in the restaurant window. As StateCollege.com reports, employees at the location near Penn State University announced the closure by writing: "Want to know why we are closed? Ask our corporate offices why their employees are forced to work in borderline sweatshop conditions."

Nobody is forcing them to work anywhere. Someone else will step in that will take there jobs soon enough.

 

[brandonb]

Minnesota just raised its min wage.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/10/news/economy/minnesota-minimum-wage/index.html

Guess what.

The local restaurant that I ate lunch at, the daily special went from $5.99 to $6.99 the same day. The reason: Min wage, that's what the waiter said. With the sales tax, tip, and drink, I'm now spending $10 for lunch. I guess I'll just stop eating lunch there or bring one in. Getting too expensive. I'm sure others will as well. The business will lose money.

 

[desy]

Econ 101 wage price spiral, nothing new
Argue until your blue, people will expect enough to live and fight for that and business will try to keep costs down.