ride525,
Yep, it's Red. It's even from this thread. Just go back a few posts. It's a special quote technique developed by the liberal media, used when quoting Conservatives.
Russ, NCNE
Yep, it's Red. It's even from this thread. Just go back a few posts. It's a special quote technique developed by the liberal media, used when quoting Conservatives.
Russ, NCNE
<< Yep, it's Red. It's even from this thread. Just go back a few posts. It's a special quote technique developed by the liberal media, used when quoting Conservatives. >>
I didn't know you were liberal..........
Has Russ finally seen the light?
Okay, maybe this has already been covered and I just missed it, but I have a question purely as a statistical anomaly...
In the first statewide mandatory recount, where most all the other counties recount results were within an extremely small percentage variance of the original results (some with zero variance), and both candidates either lost or gained votes at close to the same ratio as total votes cast for each one, why is it that a couple of counties, but most notably PBC, has such a wide variation after the recount?
Has there been any reason given that would explain that, such as clerical error in the original numbers reported or what? The numbers just don't follow the rest of the state for some reason and I'm wondering if anybody could shed some light on it. The Gore/Bush percentage overall in the vote was 62%/36%. So one would expect that if errors were made the numbers following the recount would pretty much reflect that ratio but they don't come anywhere near that. After the recount, both candidates gained votes but the votes gained for each was Gore +787, Bush +105. Thats more than a 7 to 1 ratio while the original was less than 2 to 1.
Same goes for Pinellas County, but even more so. Original ratio of Gore/Bush votes was 50%/47%. After recount totals Gore gained +417 and Bush lost -61. Thats about an 8 to 1 ratio while the original was virtually even or about 1 to 1.
In Duval County Bush had the greater percentage of votes at ~152,000 to Gore's 108,000, but in the recount Gore gained 184 votes and Bush only 16. Little more than 1 to 1 ratio with advantage Bush but recount change is almost 12 to 1 in Gore's favor.
Hmmmm, lets see. Gore votes gained in PBC 787, in Pinellas 417, in Duval 184. Thats 1388 more for Gore. Bush gained in PBC 105, in Pinellas lost 61, in Duval 16 Thats 60 more for Bush. Net gain for Gore in these 3 counties that seem to be statistical anomalies is 1328. What was the original difference between the two before the recount?
Of course I realize this is backwards statistics, but I find it interesting none the less. On the surface it looks like some shenanigans going on and it could either be on the Bush side in the original count or on the Gore side in the recount. However, since I know that PBC is mostly Democrat controlled and it has one of the biggest anomalies, and I can't help being a little partisan
, I'd be a little more inclined to lean more toward the latter, at this point. I don't know about the make-up of Pinellas and Duval so maybe somebody could fill that in. Democrat or Republican controlled?
One more item of note also that seems to be way out of kilter statistically, statistically even more so than any of the above, is in Martin County. More Bush voters to the tune of ~ 34,000 Bush to 27,000 Gore but still not a huge ratio (55%/43%), but in the recount Bush picked up 106 votes while Gore only gained 1 vote. Thats a ratio of course of 106 to 1!
These four counties (see *'s below) seem to have very high statistical anomalies in the recount while most of the others are pretty close to about net change being equal for each one as compared to ratio of votes cast for each one in the original count. Anybody have any insight/explanations or thoughts on this? And please don't assume this is a completely partisan post. I'm just interested in the numbers and why they're so out of whack with the rest of the counties. There are a couple more oddities in the results but I didn't throw those in here. For instance Nassau County where BOTH lost a pretty significant amount of votes.
I'll try to put up a listing of all totals but this particular chart is the preliminary AP one before official totals. Its pretty close but not exact. Where I'm getting the official #'s from brings up one county at a time and not about to go thru copying and pasting them one at a time. Also, it has been arranged in the order of net change for Gore in descending order. I'm not going to try and get the table straight so you'll have to do the deciphering.
COUNTY------GORE VOTES-------BUSH VOTES------GORE CHANGE------BUSH CHANGE
Palm Beach.... 269,696.... 152,954.... 751.... 108 *
Pinellas.... 200,629.... 184,823.... 417.... -61 *
Seminole.... 59,174.... 75,677.... 286.... 384
Polk.... 75,196.... 90,191.... 219.... 90
Duval.... 107,864.... 152,098.... 184.... 16 *
Gadsden.... 9,735.... 4,767.... 170.... 17
Orange.... 140,220.... 134,517.... 105.... 41
Alachua.... 47,365.... 34,124.... 65.... 62
Dade.... 328,764.... 289,492.... 62.... 36
Broward.... 386,561.... 177,323.... 43.... 44
Lee.... 73,560.... 106,141.... 30.... 18
Hillsborough.... 169,557.... 180,760.... 28.... 47
Citrus.... 25,525.... 29,766.... 24.... 22
Okaloosa.... 16,948.... 52,093.... 24.... 50
Holmes.... 2,177.... 5,011.... 23.... 26
St. Johns.... 19,502.... 39,546.... 20.... 49
Marion.... 44,665.... 55,141.... 17.... 6
Lake.... 36,553.... 49,974.... 16.... 47
Highland.... 14,167.... 20,206.... 15.... 10
Pasco.... 69,564.... 68,582.... 14.... 1
Collier.... 29,918.... 60,433.... 13.... 7
Putnam.... 12,102.... 13,447.... 11.... 8
Manatee.... 49,177.... 57,952.... 8.... 4
Gulf.... 2,397.... 3,550.... 8.... 4
Union.... 1,407.... 2,332.... 8.... 6
Sarasota.... 12,802.... 36,274.... 7.... 26
Flagler.... 13,897.... 12,613.... 6.... 5
Liberty.... 1,017.... 1,317.... 6.... 1
Walton.... 5,642.... 12,182.... 5.... 6
Charlotte.... 29,645.... 35,426.... 4.... 7
Osceola.... 28,181.... 26,212.... 4.... -4
Franklin.... 2,046.... 2,454.... 4.... 6
Hamilton.... 1,722.... 2,146.... 4.... -7
Sumter.... 9,637.... 12,127.... 3.... 1
Wakulla.... 3,838.... 4,512.... 3.... 1
Bradford.... 3,075.... 5,414.... 3.... 1
Jefferson.... 3,041.... 2,478.... 3.... -3
Madison.... 3,014.... 3,038.... 3....
Clay.... 14,632.... 41,736.... 2.... -9
Washington.... 2,798.... 4,994.... 2.... 11
Taylor.... 2,649.... 4,056.... 2.... 6
Glades.... 1,442.... 1,841.... 2.... 1
Martin.... 26,620.... 33,970.... 1.... 106 *
Hendry.... 3,240.... 4,747.... 1.... 4
Dixie.... 1,826.... 2,697.... 1.... -1
Lafayette.... 789.... 1,670.... 1.... 1
Santarosa.... 72,853.... 83,100.... -1....
Indian River.... 19,768.... 28,635.... -1.... 8
DeSoto.... 3,320.... 4,256.... -2....
Hardee.... 2,339.... 3,765.... -2.... 1
Levy.... 5,398.... 6,858.... -5.... -2
Suwannee.... 4,075.... 8,006.... -9.... -8
Escambia.... 40,943.... 73,017.... -15.... -12
Nassau.... 6,879.... 16,280.... -73.... -124
Brevard.... 97,318.... 115,185
Volusia.... 97,063.... 82,214
Leon.... 61,425.... 39,053
St. Lucie.... 41,559.... 34,705
Hernando.... 32,644.... 30,646
Bay.... 18,850.... 38,637
Monroe.... 16,483.... 16,059
Columbia.... 7,047.... 10,964
Jackson.... 6,868.... 9,138
Okeechobee.... 4,588.... 5,057.... -1
Baker.... 2,392.... 5,610
Calhoun.... 2,155.... 2,873
Gilchris.... 1,910..... 3,300
Red You might want to browse through this chart for yourself. Perhaps you might could begin to see where some people get the idea that something just doesn't pass the smell test in this election. I personally think it smells on the Democratic side, BUT, I will admit to being partisan and I realize that, but I'm not blindly partisan. I also realize that if you look at it from the other side, it could smell just as badly on the original count totals. Whoever is stinkin' it up doesn't change the fact that it still smells. I believe that there's more evidence of "smellousness" on the other side but I would certainly be willing to be proven wrong.
Sorry Russ for posting a novelette in your thread, but I figured it was as good here as in one of its own.
<edit> worked on the table a little bit for the sight impaired <edit>
In the first statewide mandatory recount, where most all the other counties recount results were within an extremely small percentage variance of the original results (some with zero variance), and both candidates either lost or gained votes at close to the same ratio as total votes cast for each one, why is it that a couple of counties, but most notably PBC, has such a wide variation after the recount?
Has there been any reason given that would explain that, such as clerical error in the original numbers reported or what? The numbers just don't follow the rest of the state for some reason and I'm wondering if anybody could shed some light on it. The Gore/Bush percentage overall in the vote was 62%/36%. So one would expect that if errors were made the numbers following the recount would pretty much reflect that ratio but they don't come anywhere near that. After the recount, both candidates gained votes but the votes gained for each was Gore +787, Bush +105. Thats more than a 7 to 1 ratio while the original was less than 2 to 1.
Same goes for Pinellas County, but even more so. Original ratio of Gore/Bush votes was 50%/47%. After recount totals Gore gained +417 and Bush lost -61. Thats about an 8 to 1 ratio while the original was virtually even or about 1 to 1.
In Duval County Bush had the greater percentage of votes at ~152,000 to Gore's 108,000, but in the recount Gore gained 184 votes and Bush only 16. Little more than 1 to 1 ratio with advantage Bush but recount change is almost 12 to 1 in Gore's favor.
Hmmmm, lets see. Gore votes gained in PBC 787, in Pinellas 417, in Duval 184. Thats 1388 more for Gore. Bush gained in PBC 105, in Pinellas lost 61, in Duval 16 Thats 60 more for Bush. Net gain for Gore in these 3 counties that seem to be statistical anomalies is 1328. What was the original difference between the two before the recount?
Of course I realize this is backwards statistics, but I find it interesting none the less. On the surface it looks like some shenanigans going on and it could either be on the Bush side in the original count or on the Gore side in the recount. However, since I know that PBC is mostly Democrat controlled and it has one of the biggest anomalies, and I can't help being a little partisan
, I'd be a little more inclined to lean more toward the latter, at this point. I don't know about the make-up of Pinellas and Duval so maybe somebody could fill that in. Democrat or Republican controlled? One more item of note also that seems to be way out of kilter statistically, statistically even more so than any of the above, is in Martin County. More Bush voters to the tune of ~ 34,000 Bush to 27,000 Gore but still not a huge ratio (55%/43%), but in the recount Bush picked up 106 votes while Gore only gained 1 vote. Thats a ratio of course of 106 to 1!
These four counties (see *'s below) seem to have very high statistical anomalies in the recount while most of the others are pretty close to about net change being equal for each one as compared to ratio of votes cast for each one in the original count. Anybody have any insight/explanations or thoughts on this? And please don't assume this is a completely partisan post. I'm just interested in the numbers and why they're so out of whack with the rest of the counties. There are a couple more oddities in the results but I didn't throw those in here. For instance Nassau County where BOTH lost a pretty significant amount of votes.
I'll try to put up a listing of all totals but this particular chart is the preliminary AP one before official totals. Its pretty close but not exact. Where I'm getting the official #'s from brings up one county at a time and not about to go thru copying and pasting them one at a time. Also, it has been arranged in the order of net change for Gore in descending order. I'm not going to try and get the table straight so you'll have to do the deciphering.
COUNTY------GORE VOTES-------BUSH VOTES------GORE CHANGE------BUSH CHANGE
Palm Beach.... 269,696.... 152,954.... 751.... 108 *
Pinellas.... 200,629.... 184,823.... 417.... -61 *
Seminole.... 59,174.... 75,677.... 286.... 384
Polk.... 75,196.... 90,191.... 219.... 90
Duval.... 107,864.... 152,098.... 184.... 16 *
Gadsden.... 9,735.... 4,767.... 170.... 17
Orange.... 140,220.... 134,517.... 105.... 41
Alachua.... 47,365.... 34,124.... 65.... 62
Dade.... 328,764.... 289,492.... 62.... 36
Broward.... 386,561.... 177,323.... 43.... 44
Lee.... 73,560.... 106,141.... 30.... 18
Hillsborough.... 169,557.... 180,760.... 28.... 47
Citrus.... 25,525.... 29,766.... 24.... 22
Okaloosa.... 16,948.... 52,093.... 24.... 50
Holmes.... 2,177.... 5,011.... 23.... 26
St. Johns.... 19,502.... 39,546.... 20.... 49
Marion.... 44,665.... 55,141.... 17.... 6
Lake.... 36,553.... 49,974.... 16.... 47
Highland.... 14,167.... 20,206.... 15.... 10
Pasco.... 69,564.... 68,582.... 14.... 1
Collier.... 29,918.... 60,433.... 13.... 7
Putnam.... 12,102.... 13,447.... 11.... 8
Manatee.... 49,177.... 57,952.... 8.... 4
Gulf.... 2,397.... 3,550.... 8.... 4
Union.... 1,407.... 2,332.... 8.... 6
Sarasota.... 12,802.... 36,274.... 7.... 26
Flagler.... 13,897.... 12,613.... 6.... 5
Liberty.... 1,017.... 1,317.... 6.... 1
Walton.... 5,642.... 12,182.... 5.... 6
Charlotte.... 29,645.... 35,426.... 4.... 7
Osceola.... 28,181.... 26,212.... 4.... -4
Franklin.... 2,046.... 2,454.... 4.... 6
Hamilton.... 1,722.... 2,146.... 4.... -7
Sumter.... 9,637.... 12,127.... 3.... 1
Wakulla.... 3,838.... 4,512.... 3.... 1
Bradford.... 3,075.... 5,414.... 3.... 1
Jefferson.... 3,041.... 2,478.... 3.... -3
Madison.... 3,014.... 3,038.... 3....
Clay.... 14,632.... 41,736.... 2.... -9
Washington.... 2,798.... 4,994.... 2.... 11
Taylor.... 2,649.... 4,056.... 2.... 6
Glades.... 1,442.... 1,841.... 2.... 1
Martin.... 26,620.... 33,970.... 1.... 106 *
Hendry.... 3,240.... 4,747.... 1.... 4
Dixie.... 1,826.... 2,697.... 1.... -1
Lafayette.... 789.... 1,670.... 1.... 1
Santarosa.... 72,853.... 83,100.... -1....
Indian River.... 19,768.... 28,635.... -1.... 8
DeSoto.... 3,320.... 4,256.... -2....
Hardee.... 2,339.... 3,765.... -2.... 1
Levy.... 5,398.... 6,858.... -5.... -2
Suwannee.... 4,075.... 8,006.... -9.... -8
Escambia.... 40,943.... 73,017.... -15.... -12
Nassau.... 6,879.... 16,280.... -73.... -124
Brevard.... 97,318.... 115,185
Volusia.... 97,063.... 82,214
Leon.... 61,425.... 39,053
St. Lucie.... 41,559.... 34,705
Hernando.... 32,644.... 30,646
Bay.... 18,850.... 38,637
Monroe.... 16,483.... 16,059
Columbia.... 7,047.... 10,964
Jackson.... 6,868.... 9,138
Okeechobee.... 4,588.... 5,057.... -1
Baker.... 2,392.... 5,610
Calhoun.... 2,155.... 2,873
Gilchris.... 1,910..... 3,300
Red You might want to browse through this chart for yourself. Perhaps you might could begin to see where some people get the idea that something just doesn't pass the smell test in this election. I personally think it smells on the Democratic side, BUT, I will admit to being partisan and I realize that, but I'm not blindly partisan. I also realize that if you look at it from the other side, it could smell just as badly on the original count totals. Whoever is stinkin' it up doesn't change the fact that it still smells. I believe that there's more evidence of "smellousness" on the other side but I would certainly be willing to be proven wrong.
Sorry Russ for posting a novelette in your thread, but I figured it was as good here as in one of its own.
<edit> worked on the table a little bit for the sight impaired <edit>
Getting closer Ride on which precincts were the sample in PBC.
"The recount that produced the votes was of ballots from four precincts--two west of Boca Raton and one each near Delray Beach and Palm Beach Gardens. The precincts were picked by Democrats, who requested the recount, to find ballots in heavy Gore strongholds that may not have been counted by machines because of poorly punched holes." -Source... Sun-Sentinel (So. Fl. Newspaper)
"The recount that produced the votes was of ballots from four precincts--two west of Boca Raton and one each near Delray Beach and Palm Beach Gardens. The precincts were picked by Democrats, who requested the recount, to find ballots in heavy Gore strongholds that may not have been counted by machines because of poorly punched holes." -Source... Sun-Sentinel (So. Fl. Newspaper)
In Pinellas, a batch of AB ballots was "found" about 1100 or so said to not have been counted in the initial tally. These ballots yielded the 400 odd new Bore votes.
There is a county prosecutor investigation, already launched. There is no explanation yet as to what happened.
One of the funny things about the "undervote" is that the network exit polls, which everyone loves, yielded about 1% no vote for president. This 1% is quite close to the "undervote" in Palm Beach & Broward counties.
Yep, Lie, cheat & steal.... the actions of the democrats are clear.
Yep, Lie standing up before the Fl State Supreme Court. What more is needed to indicate democrat intent.
Bore is a good understudy of Slick Billy Clinton. Struck from the same mold. Lied in the debates. Has a history of lying about his life, remember "Love Story" ?
He stayed in Sarasota & then made up an example of "problems in the Sarasota school sysytem", using names. His example was a flat out lie.
Any one wonder how the Palm Beach "butterfly ballot" thing got started so quick ?? Bore had one of the democrat lawyers, ready to go. This is the same guy who litigated a senate race in Mass over this same punch ballot. The same lawyer who lied about dimple ballots, standing before the FL Supreme Court.
Are the democrats trying to fix this election... Damn right they are!!!
There is a county prosecutor investigation, already launched. There is no explanation yet as to what happened.
One of the funny things about the "undervote" is that the network exit polls, which everyone loves, yielded about 1% no vote for president. This 1% is quite close to the "undervote" in Palm Beach & Broward counties.
Yep, Lie, cheat & steal.... the actions of the democrats are clear.
Yep, Lie standing up before the Fl State Supreme Court. What more is needed to indicate democrat intent.
Bore is a good understudy of Slick Billy Clinton. Struck from the same mold. Lied in the debates. Has a history of lying about his life, remember "Love Story" ?
He stayed in Sarasota & then made up an example of "problems in the Sarasota school sysytem", using names. His example was a flat out lie.
Any one wonder how the Palm Beach "butterfly ballot" thing got started so quick ?? Bore had one of the democrat lawyers, ready to go. This is the same guy who litigated a senate race in Mass over this same punch ballot. The same lawyer who lied about dimple ballots, standing before the FL Supreme Court.
Are the democrats trying to fix this election... Damn right they are!!!
<< In Pinellas, a batch of AB ballots was "found" about 1100 or so said to not have been counted in the initial tally. These ballots yielded the 400 odd new Bore votes. >>
cxim, do you have a source on that info? The numbers on THAT allegation don't quite add up either. You say 1100 ballots. A little over 400 went to Gore but obviously 0 went to Bush since he lost votes in the recount. What happened to the other 700 or so?
It is now clear that Gore will not be able to "scam" enough votes to overcome Bush.
Now we will see that Gore never was interested in "the will of the voters", he will launch a bitter Court challenge that will be seen by all(including many innocent Men that voted for him), as the move of a mean old Man and the thugs that support him.
Conservatives used to believe that Democrat Leaders were honorable Men with a different view, and to be treated as Brothers.
Now they are seen as the modern day equivalent of King George, they must be thrown out of power, not by bloodshed, but buy a presentation of the facts, the ballot box and the courts.
Let the Battle continue, the legitimate votes are with us, we will play until we win....
Now we will see that Gore never was interested in "the will of the voters", he will launch a bitter Court challenge that will be seen by all(including many innocent Men that voted for him), as the move of a mean old Man and the thugs that support him.
Conservatives used to believe that Democrat Leaders were honorable Men with a different view, and to be treated as Brothers.
Now they are seen as the modern day equivalent of King George, they must be thrown out of power, not by bloodshed, but buy a presentation of the facts, the ballot box and the courts.
Let the Battle continue, the legitimate votes are with us, we will play until we win....
Format, don't have anything on the net. The numbers are all from local news TV broadcasts.
The initial news story was that a set of 600 or so ballots was run thru a counting machine twice & the 1100 "found" ballots were not run thru at all in the initial count.
In the recount, Bush lost votes from the 600 double count correction
Gore picked up 400 odd net new votes from the 1100.
after the "lost" ballots were found, all ballots were re-evaluated & 3 more machine recounts were done before the recount was locally certified. A total of 4 machine recounts was done. A criminal investigation also has been started.
The initial news story was that a set of 600 or so ballots was run thru a counting machine twice & the 1100 "found" ballots were not run thru at all in the initial count.
In the recount, Bush lost votes from the 600 double count correction
Gore picked up 400 odd net new votes from the 1100.
after the "lost" ballots were found, all ballots were re-evaluated & 3 more machine recounts were done before the recount was locally certified. A total of 4 machine recounts was done. A criminal investigation also has been started.
K, thanks cxim. Would like more info on that if you find any. The numbers still look a little bit odd, but of course it would depend on the split of the double counted 600 that would get deducted from each one's total before the 1100 was added back in, so I can see how that might could end up the way it did.
After looking at the numbers again, it still looks weird. Would sure like to see the report of exactly what happened because the split is pretty close to 50/50 on total votes. You "might" could assume from that that the 600 votes that were double counted was close to evenly split and the 1100 found ones were also. That wouldn't give you anywhere near the final results if so. Would just simply subtract about the same from each and add back about the same to each, and thats certainly not what happened.
You'd have to assume some very weird vote totals to end up where it did with Gore gaining so much and Bush losing what he did. You say Gore got ~400 of the found 1100 so that leaves 700 he didn't. You'd have to have about a 15%+ invalid ballot rate yielding 935 valid ballots in total with Gore getting ~400 & Bush ~535, and at the same time the original 600 doublecounters having been cast 0 Gore, 600 Bush. Neither one of those events looks "right" with about a 50/50 split overall in the vote. Of course, this is all just speculation with numbers an an excersize in futility without knowing the actual story. Would be interesting to see how it really happened.
After looking at the numbers again, it still looks weird. Would sure like to see the report of exactly what happened because the split is pretty close to 50/50 on total votes. You "might" could assume from that that the 600 votes that were double counted was close to evenly split and the 1100 found ones were also. That wouldn't give you anywhere near the final results if so. Would just simply subtract about the same from each and add back about the same to each, and thats certainly not what happened.
You'd have to assume some very weird vote totals to end up where it did with Gore gaining so much and Bush losing what he did. You say Gore got ~400 of the found 1100 so that leaves 700 he didn't. You'd have to have about a 15%+ invalid ballot rate yielding 935 valid ballots in total with Gore getting ~400 & Bush ~535, and at the same time the original 600 doublecounters having been cast 0 Gore, 600 Bush. Neither one of those events looks "right" with about a 50/50 split overall in the vote. Of course, this is all just speculation with numbers an an excersize in futility without knowing the actual story. Would be interesting to see how it really happened.
Pinellas recount story
My numbers were a little off but the story over all is as reported.
Damn, I hate lookin stuff up in newspaper online archives.
My numbers were a little off but the story over all is as reported.
Damn, I hate lookin stuff up in newspaper online archives.
...as usual Russ is right on the money. Any objective statistical analysis would lead to the inevitable conclusion that either the machines were heavily biased against Gore (not possible), or the hand counting is heavily biased against Bush (VERY likely).
Of course, people keep saying that there are reps of each party present during these manual counts, so there can't be any cheating right? WRONG. It's quite simple. A democrat picks up a vote that has no markings on it, and claims it's a Gore vote. The republican of course objects. The supervisors are called, and of course they have the same split - so there's no agreement. And guess who then makes the final call on that ballot?? Yep, you guessed it, the democrat-controlled electoral officials for that precinct. Of course, the repubs cry foul, but it doesn't matter, the media will not want to tarnish these hand counts with the possibility that they are crooked, because that would not favor their boy Gore...... and so, we have what's going on right now.
Of course, people keep saying that there are reps of each party present during these manual counts, so there can't be any cheating right? WRONG. It's quite simple. A democrat picks up a vote that has no markings on it, and claims it's a Gore vote. The republican of course objects. The supervisors are called, and of course they have the same split - so there's no agreement. And guess who then makes the final call on that ballot?? Yep, you guessed it, the democrat-controlled electoral officials for that precinct. Of course, the repubs cry foul, but it doesn't matter, the media will not want to tarnish these hand counts with the possibility that they are crooked, because that would not favor their boy Gore...... and so, we have what's going on right now.
Thanks for the link. Thats definitely one for the books. Numbers still seem a bit odd but I'm dead tired and can't think straight. The story doesn't break the totals down either and that doesn't help a whole lot in doin the "figurin". Oh well, they've counted several times and the whole thing is being looked into so I'm sure whatever happened will eventually be detailed in full. Seems like theres been a lot more screw-ups in this election all over the state than just what the national media keeps focusing on. Politics. Gotta love 'em.
Thats definitely one for the books. Numbers still seem a bit odd but I'm dead tired and can't think straight. The story doesn't break the totals down either and that doesn't help a whole lot in doin the "figurin". Oh well, they've counted several times and the whole thing is being looked into so I'm sure whatever happened will eventually be detailed in full. Seems like theres been a lot more screw-ups in this election all over the state than just what the national media keeps focusing on. Politics. Gotta love 'em. It's going to get worse:
On Sunday, the Gore-Lieberman (Sore-Loserman) camp will not CONCEDE the election when the results get reported. Instead, they are going to CONTEST it because of Miami-Dade county backing out of the hand recounts.
I don't think Al Gore has PERSISTED as much in his whole political career as much as he has these past few weeks. Something to think about...He only cares about his own best interest.
On Sunday, the Gore-Lieberman (Sore-Loserman) camp will not CONCEDE the election when the results get reported. Instead, they are going to CONTEST it because of Miami-Dade county backing out of the hand recounts.
I don't think Al Gore has PERSISTED as much in his whole political career as much as he has these past few weeks. Something to think about...He only cares about his own best interest.
To any and all who think the PBC partial hand recount wasn't fixed.
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla.
(Reuters) - Officials began on Saturday a hand recount of ballots, which the campaign of Republican George W. Bush (news - web sites) was trying to prevent through legal action, in the disputed but decisive Florida election.
Officials in Palm Beach County, the center of turmoil in the Florida vote to choose the next U.S. president, broke the seal on the ballot boxes and began the laborious task of counting more than 4,500 ballots which is expected to last up to 12 hours.
Two dozen election workers stood at long tables dividing up piles of ballot papers according to whether voters clearly cast a ballot for one or another candidate, where their intentions were ``questionable'' or whether they cast more than one vote or no vote at all.
Bush, the Texas governor who currently holds a razor-thin lead in Florida, and Democratic Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites) were locked in a battle for the state's block of 25 electoral votes, which will determine who wins the presidency as either candidate will top the 270 votes required with Florida.
After two recounts in the state, Democrats have requested a further tally be made by hand in several counties.
The Democrats selected three precincts and the canvass board added a fourth precinct in order to count one percent, the share stipulated by law, of the total votes cast in Palm Beach County. (Emphasis added)
The three precincts picked by the democrats went heavily for Gore. I remember seeing one precinct that had roughly 1000 votes for Gore and 149 for Bush. I'm having a little trouble finding out exactly which precincts were recounted. Anyhoo, since the decision to do a total hand recount was based on the results of the dubious at best partial count, how can anybody say it was a representative sample?
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla.
(Reuters) - Officials began on Saturday a hand recount of ballots, which the campaign of Republican George W. Bush (news - web sites) was trying to prevent through legal action, in the disputed but decisive Florida election.
Officials in Palm Beach County, the center of turmoil in the Florida vote to choose the next U.S. president, broke the seal on the ballot boxes and began the laborious task of counting more than 4,500 ballots which is expected to last up to 12 hours.
Two dozen election workers stood at long tables dividing up piles of ballot papers according to whether voters clearly cast a ballot for one or another candidate, where their intentions were ``questionable'' or whether they cast more than one vote or no vote at all.
Bush, the Texas governor who currently holds a razor-thin lead in Florida, and Democratic Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites) were locked in a battle for the state's block of 25 electoral votes, which will determine who wins the presidency as either candidate will top the 270 votes required with Florida.
After two recounts in the state, Democrats have requested a further tally be made by hand in several counties.
The Democrats selected three precincts and the canvass board added a fourth precinct in order to count one percent, the share stipulated by law, of the total votes cast in Palm Beach County. (Emphasis added)
The three precincts picked by the democrats went heavily for Gore. I remember seeing one precinct that had roughly 1000 votes for Gore and 149 for Bush. I'm having a little trouble finding out exactly which precincts were recounted. Anyhoo, since the decision to do a total hand recount was based on the results of the dubious at best partial count, how can anybody say it was a representative sample?
Look, why argue about this? We already know that this recount is NOT going to produce a winner......Gore made it public yesterday that he will not concede even if he loses this recount. (which by the numbers looks highly likely) Besides, think about it.....if you made promises to the Chinese & Russians, not to mention a promise to pardon Clinton, wouldn't you do anything you could to win?
I still would see what precincts were picked for Palm Beach County. I've looked before and haven't been able to find.
If picked with heavily Gore areas, it wouldn't be representative. There are posts, above which suggest that the sample picked areas that may (or did) have had heavy concentrations of "undervotes" or problem ballots. Again, if true, not representative. I still wonder why AnandTech has "discovered" this, and why this hasn't been brought out already.
Let me go over a point I've already made and explain again why the numbers seem so odd to some for Palm Beach County.
600,000 ballots were recounted. Most, of these had little problems, it was obvious who the vote went for. I'd guess it was obvious to the machines too, so there was little change in the count.
However, there were almost 2,000 problem ballots set aside that are hard to discern the vote. I'd guess it was hard for the machines to discern many of these too, so they would not have necessarily been included in the original counts. And in a county that was 60/40 Gore, it certainly would not be surprising if 60% of these problem, previously uncounted, ballots went for Gore. (Or at least 60% of the ones where there is a obvious vote.)
If picked with heavily Gore areas, it wouldn't be representative. There are posts, above which suggest that the sample picked areas that may (or did) have had heavy concentrations of "undervotes" or problem ballots. Again, if true, not representative. I still wonder why AnandTech has "discovered" this, and why this hasn't been brought out already.
Let me go over a point I've already made and explain again why the numbers seem so odd to some for Palm Beach County.
600,000 ballots were recounted. Most, of these had little problems, it was obvious who the vote went for. I'd guess it was obvious to the machines too, so there was little change in the count.
However, there were almost 2,000 problem ballots set aside that are hard to discern the vote. I'd guess it was hard for the machines to discern many of these too, so they would not have necessarily been included in the original counts. And in a county that was 60/40 Gore, it certainly would not be surprising if 60% of these problem, previously uncounted, ballots went for Gore. (Or at least 60% of the ones where there is a obvious vote.)
Michael
Elite member
- Nov 19, 1999
- 5,435
- 234
- 106
Since there are no standards to determine what an "error" is as a result of the test manual recount, the only benefit to selecting the heavily Democrat precincts was public relations. By looking for ballots that have "intent" and never would have been read by the machine, the canvassing board is almost guaranteed to find a couple of errors and the error should (because of the choice of where to sample from) yield more Democrat votes.
Then is just becomes a PR issue - the 19 votes factored by the 1% means 1,900 votes. We need a recount, just look at all the votes that were missed!!! <- PR spin
The canvassing board could have found 1 "error" and decided to recount.
This is where I ahve a key disagreement with what the Florida State Court decided to do. The laws vested the descretion into the hand of the Secretary of State. Just like complaining that the canvassing boards are Democrat boards is a poor argument, arguing that the SoS is a Republican is also poor (they were both elected to their positions and the Reblicans lost on and won one election. Since the voters chose, it seems fair to me).
Since deciding to do a manual recount is completely up to the local canvassing boards, I feel that the legislature meant to have the SoS make a decision on how late to let the manual counts run. Once the elections are "certified", they can be contested. I'm not 100% certain if you can ask for a recount in a contest if there hadn't been one requested for the original count. Since manual recounts had been requested and started in Broward Counties before the deadline, couldn't the results just have been contested if the manual recounts had not been completed in time? I fail to see how a judge would not have granted a manual recount in the contest phase and those would have had much more time to run as there would not have been a 7 day limit.
Of course, the judge probably would have been reviewing questionable ballots and I think that judges tend to be stricter than the canvassing boards are.
All-in-all, the Florida Supreme Court had many options of action. They decided to rewrite statutes and usurp the authority of an elected official, authority that was granted by law. That's the issue I have, and hopefully the US Supreme Court will rule on that matter so I can read through what they present as the support for their conclusions (I disagree that the Florida Supreme Court had to chose what it did and their arguments did not sway me).
Michael
Then is just becomes a PR issue - the 19 votes factored by the 1% means 1,900 votes. We need a recount, just look at all the votes that were missed!!! <- PR spin
The canvassing board could have found 1 "error" and decided to recount.
This is where I ahve a key disagreement with what the Florida State Court decided to do. The laws vested the descretion into the hand of the Secretary of State. Just like complaining that the canvassing boards are Democrat boards is a poor argument, arguing that the SoS is a Republican is also poor (they were both elected to their positions and the Reblicans lost on and won one election. Since the voters chose, it seems fair to me).
Since deciding to do a manual recount is completely up to the local canvassing boards, I feel that the legislature meant to have the SoS make a decision on how late to let the manual counts run. Once the elections are "certified", they can be contested. I'm not 100% certain if you can ask for a recount in a contest if there hadn't been one requested for the original count. Since manual recounts had been requested and started in Broward Counties before the deadline, couldn't the results just have been contested if the manual recounts had not been completed in time? I fail to see how a judge would not have granted a manual recount in the contest phase and those would have had much more time to run as there would not have been a 7 day limit.
Of course, the judge probably would have been reviewing questionable ballots and I think that judges tend to be stricter than the canvassing boards are.
All-in-all, the Florida Supreme Court had many options of action. They decided to rewrite statutes and usurp the authority of an elected official, authority that was granted by law. That's the issue I have, and hopefully the US Supreme Court will rule on that matter so I can read through what they present as the support for their conclusions (I disagree that the Florida Supreme Court had to chose what it did and their arguments did not sway me).
Michael
ride525, I'm not sure I understand the quote in your sig? 8 years ago would make it 1992 with the Bush loss. However it was 1994 when the republicans captured a significant majority in the legislature. How is that being rejected? I'm not trying to start anything, just wondering what you're talking about.
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