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alkemyst said:
Then you have lied here in the past.

You can't make up your own definition of retardation.
Click to expand...

Where are you getting your definition?

By your rule all autistic people are stupid, or all autistic people are not retarded.

This would apply to any condition considered "retarded", and simply isn't logical.

Here's an example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...y-genius-iq-higher-einstein-article-1.1340923

This kid is actually far ahead of me, both intellectually and socially (I still cant get in front of a crowd). A big part of it is because his parents recognized his real issue and got him what he needed relatively early. More and more today people are actually trying to understand and help retarded people.

Now I'm not saying I would have turned out as good as this kid, but back when I was a child I was stuck with people like you, who insisted that "retard=stupid". These people refused to let me learn or be creative and do things my way. It was these close minded people that even convinced my parents that I was essentially worthless and there was nothing they could do. I also had 3 "normal" siblings so my parents had their hands full.

They needed to work to support us so I was sent to school with the rest of my siblings, and it was there I had 9-10 years of hearing "you're a worthless stupid retard" and being pushed aside. So I missed a very important stage of growth and learning which made things very difficult, for me and my parents. It wasn't until about 11 years old my parents finally figured out what the real issue was and began finding solutions to the problem.

They worked hard to help me though and did their best to find people who weren't so prejudice. Slowly I was able to learn and grow and the effect was exponential. In around 6 years I went from a non verbal, curled up, "worthless stupid retard", to getting my first part time job. Then I had another 3-4 years or so to pick up everything else I had missed, before I had to move out and face the real world on my own.

That was a massive challenge for me, and I still find it difficult to this day. To cope with the challenge I essentially focused on work, while still trying to gain intellectual and practical knowledge, and avoided any and all social life. The hard work and frugality though is what has afforded me this early retirement. I'm no longer a useless retard and I'm not stupid either. Certainly no genius, or social elite, but I have the capacity to learn and improve even more.

These examples I've provided are evidence that given the chance us "retards" can become socially acceptable, productive, useful members of society. We can't totally remove the label though, because we aren't normal, sometimes people need to know in order to understand, accept, and work with us.

Your idea that all retards are stupid is a terrible stereotype perpetuated by the ignorant. Well I suppose that is my opinion, and I would certainly love to see your evidence that all retards are stupid.
 
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EliteRetard said:
Where are you getting your definition?

By your rule all autistic people are stupid, or all autistic people are not retarded.

This would apply to any condition considered "retarded", and simply isn't logical.

Here's an example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...y-genius-iq-higher-einstein-article-1.1340923

This kid is actually far ahead of me, both intellectually and socially (I still cant get in front of a crowd). A big part of it is because his parents recognized his real issue and got him what he needed relatively early. More and more today people are actually trying to understand and help retarded people.

Now I'm not saying I would have turned out as good as this kid, but back when I was a child I was stuck with people like you, who insisted that "retard=stupid". These people refused to let me learn or be creative and do things my way. It was these close minded people that even convinced my parents that I was essentially worthless and there was nothing they could do. I also had 3 "normal" siblings so my parents had their hands full.

They needed to work to support us so I was sent to school with the rest of my siblings, and it was there I had 9-10 years of hearing "you're a worthless stupid retard" and being pushed aside. So I missed a very important stage of growth and learning which made things very difficult, for me and my parents. It wasn't until about 11 years old my parents finally figured out what the real issue was and began finding solutions to the problem.

They worked hard to help me though and did their best to find people who weren't so prejudice. Slowly I was able to learn and grow and the effect was exponential. In around 6 years I went from a non verbal, curled up, "worthless stupid retard", to getting my first part time job. Then I had another 3-4 years or so to pick up everything else I had missed, before I had to move out and face the real world on my own.

That was a massive challenge for me, and I still find it difficult to this day. To cope with the challenge I essentially focused on work, while still trying to gain intellectual and practical knowledge, and avoided any and all social life. The hard work and frugality though is what has afforded me this early retirement. I'm no longer a useless retard and I'm not stupid either. Certainly no genius, or social elite, but I have the capacity to learn and improve even more.

These examples I've provided are evidence that given the chance us "retards" can become socially acceptable, productive, useful members of society. We can't totally remove the label though, because we aren't normal, sometimes people need to know in order to understand, accept, and work with us.

Your idea that all retards are stupid is a terrible stereotype perpetuated by the ignorant. Well I suppose that is my opinion, and I would certainly love to see your evidence that all retards are stupid.
Click to expand...

Bro, mental retardation = stupid. There is nothing to make it more politically correct, however; autism <> mental retardation always.

There are three main factors in determining retardation:

http://www.asatonline.org/research-treatment/clinical-corner/mental-retardation-and-autism/
 
alkemyst said:
Bro, mental retardation = stupid. There is nothing to make it more politically correct, however; autism <> mental retardation always.

There are three main factors in determining retardation:

http://www.asatonline.org/research-treatment/clinical-corner/mental-retardation-and-autism/
Click to expand...

I and the child in that article both would have met all 3 of those conditions. So we must be stupid. No, your definition is broken and flawed. It's a shitty system that insists if we are not normal and don't fit into their special little box we are stupid.

Because we don't think learn or develop the same way as normal children we have "Significant adaptive living skill deficits" which then lead us to having an "IQ measured to be two standard deviations or more below the mean" and since we are born with it we meet criteria number 3 "Onset before age 18 (in other words, before development is considered to be completed)".

But as that article shows, and as my story explains, when people actually give us the right tools and the chance to learn we can. We don't actually lack "adaptive living skill deficits" we simply have our own set outside the standard definition. We can use our unique skills to not only match but even exceed the average IQ.

Have you even read what you posted? They touch on these very ideas.

Does your child meet these three criteria? A great many students diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) do. My central question, however, is whether this measured intellectual deficit is merely a reflection of current behavioral, communicative, and social difficulties. Consider the requirements of standard intelligence tests: They generally require the student to interact with the tester, answer questions, follow directions, imitate, and receptively or expressively identify requested items. Many students diagnosed with autism have simply not learned these skills at the time of testing. Following effective programming, IQ may jump by dozens of points (e.g., Lovaas, 1987). Did you magically increase the student’s intelligence, or did you help the individual to develop the skills that allowed the child to participate in the test? I would argue for the latter explanation. Just what is intelligence anyway? Is it some general factor, or a collection of specific factors? A person whose name escapes me once said that intelligence is what intelligence tests measure.
Click to expand...

I still don't see any evidence that all retards are stupid. Have you got any other evidence to submit?
 
The slang and medical definitions of retardation are not the same.

So if retardation required on to have an IQ of below 80 according to medical definitions then many with autistic disabilities or other savants would not be considered as retarded when using medical definitions.
 
norseamd said:
The slang and medical definitions of retardation are not the same.

So if retardation required on to have an IQ of below 80 according to medical definitions then many with autistic disabilities or other savants would not be considered as retarded when using medical definitions.
Click to expand...

How can this be possible? Using a standard test we score a low IQ and meet all other criteria and thus are "retarded". Then when given the right training to complete the test normally we score above average, so suddenly we become not "retarded"? We didn't gain any intelligence, we were just given instructions on how to complete the test like a "normal" person.

And that's the problem, you guys insist that all retards are stupid by normal measure. But it's a mistake trying to measure us by normal means. We are retarded because we don't develop the normal way. That doesn't mean our way is wrong or bad, just different. And when forced to meet "normal" standards we usually don't measure up. But that does not make us stupid. It just means your system is flawed.

And its a big problem because you broken system creates a wall of ignorance and prejudice that can indeed prevent us from learning and developing.
 
Well many savants might have huge logical knowledge which is what IQ tests usually focus on or test for. EQ is not IQ. Look up multiple intelligences or relative intelligence in Wikipedia to learn more about this subject.
 
norseamd said:
Well many savants might have huge logical knowledge which is what IQ tests usually focus on or test for. EQ is not IQ. Look up multiple intelligences or relative intelligence in Wikipedia to learn more about this subject.
Click to expand...

It seems like you guys are really grasping here, trying to stretch and distort words to fit your negative view. I'm not going to go search the internet to try to disprove myself, you disagree with me so it's up to you to support your claims.

Now if you can't find anything to prove your claim and/or just don't feel like trying that's fine. I'm willing to leave the debate here feeling like I won, and we can agree to disagree.
 
This thread has really gone South. Time for a

key_lock-animated.gif
 
EliteRetard said:
It seems like you guys are really grasping here, trying to stretch and distort words to fit your negative view. I'm not going to go search the internet to try to disprove myself, you disagree with me so it's up to you to support your claims. Now if you can't find anything to prove your claim and/or just don't feel like trying that's fine. I'm willing to leave the debate here feeling like I won, and we can agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

No I said nothing negative. Maybe someone else did but not me. I was just looking for a possible explanation for a more technical definition.
 
EliteRetard said:
I and the child in that article both would have met all 3 of those conditions. So we must be stupid. No, your definition is broken and flawed. It's a shitty system that insists if we are not normal and don't fit into their special little box we are stupid.

Because we don't think learn or develop the same way as normal children we have "Significant adaptive living skill deficits" which then lead us to having an "IQ measured to be two standard deviations or more below the mean" and since we are born with it we meet criteria number 3 "Onset before age 18 (in other words, before development is considered to be completed)".

But as that article shows, and as my story explains, when people actually give us the right tools and the chance to learn we can. We don't actually lack "adaptive living skill deficits" we simply have our own set outside the standard definition. We can use our unique skills to not only match but even exceed the average IQ.

Have you even read what you posted? They touch on these very ideas.



I still don't see any evidence that all retards are stupid. Have you got any other evidence to submit?
Click to expand...

I doubt you are truly mentally retarded. I am hoping this is just trolling though.

If you want to go against the medical definitions, then so be it; but you'd be wrong.
 
EliteRetard said:
It seems like you guys are really grasping here, trying to stretch and distort words to fit your negative view. I'm not going to go search the internet to try to disprove myself, you disagree with me so it's up to you to support your claims.

Now if you can't find anything to prove your claim and/or just don't feel like trying that's fine. I'm willing to leave the debate here feeling like I won, and we can agree to disagree.
Click to expand...

Sadly, most debates online would be disqualified and all the 'strawmen/trolls' kicked out of the room.

No one can change you feeling like a winner, however; you are not being honest with us and/or not really explaining things.
 
EliteRetard said:
How can this be possible? Using a standard test we score a low IQ and meet all other criteria and thus are "retarded". Then when given the right training to complete the test normally we score above average, so suddenly we become not "retarded"? We didn't gain any intelligence, we were just given instructions on how to complete the test like a "normal" person.

And that's the problem, you guys insist that all retards are stupid by normal measure. But it's a mistake trying to measure us by normal means. We are retarded because we don't develop the normal way. That doesn't mean our way is wrong or bad, just different. And when forced to meet "normal" standards we usually don't measure up. But that does not make us stupid. It just means your system is flawed.

And its a big problem because you broken system creates a wall of ignorance and prejudice that can indeed prevent us from learning and developing.
Click to expand...

Normally 'training' doesn't sway an IQ test, unless you were coached on that said test.
 
So it seems many savants might not score well on IQ tests but that they are very talented in specific subjects or talents. Not so sure if no savants score high on IQ tests since you might think they would score high on IQ tests but low on EQ tests or related analysis or testing.

Also note I have no expertise in this area I was just pointing out that classifying everyone who is scoring in the IQ range of under 80 as retarded while classifying everyone who is scoring 80 or more as not retarded is lacking in validity and legitamacy especially since IQ is not exactly considered a concrete way of assessing intelligence and testing for IQ is often problematic in the various questions used. If savants are scoring 80 or more on IQ tests then by the possibly rigid definitions of medical retardation they would not actually be clinically retarded. Retarded and mentally disabled are not necessarily the same exact term or definition.

Since you have said you have often found ways to work around your autistic disabilities you might want to consider studying some subjects like philosophy or logic or even eastern thought since they are very good ways of increasing your ability to think in many new ways and also increasing your understanding of everything around you.
 
A savant, or esp idiot savant will still need a lot of help to be a productive member of society.

Also per my link...mental retardation is based on three criteria, IQ measurement is only one of them.
 
alkemyst said:
Normally 'training' doesn't sway an IQ test, unless you were coached on that said test.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily true. Especially since many tests use geometry, logic, or mathmatical questions which one can certainly learn more about and improve their knowledge, skill, or understanding of the various subjects.
 
norseamd said:
Not necessarily true. Especially since many tests use geometry, logic, or mathmatical questions which one can certainly learn more about and improve their knowledge, skill, or understanding of the various subjects.
Click to expand...

A standardized IQ test is more about non-book knowledge.

There are hundreds of tests out there...the true ones are very different.
 
EliteRetard said:
I and the child in that article both would have met all 3 of those conditions. So we must be stupid. No, your definition is broken and flawed. It's a shitty system that insists if we are not normal and don't fit into their special little box we are stupid.

Because we don't think learn or develop the same way as normal children we have "Significant adaptive living skill deficits" which then lead us to having an "IQ measured to be two standard deviations or more below the mean" and since we are born with it we meet criteria number 3 "Onset before age 18 (in other words, before development is considered to be completed)".

But as that article shows, and as my story explains, when people actually give us the right tools and the chance to learn we can. We don't actually lack "adaptive living skill deficits" we simply have our own set outside the standard definition. We can use our unique skills to not only match but even exceed the average IQ.

Have you even read what you posted? They touch on these very ideas.



I still don't see any evidence that all retards are stupid. Have you got any other evidence to submit?
Click to expand...

These things are more social in nature. However; yes one can learn to be non-functional. It's pretty rare though. It's akin to the story of the boy raised by wolves.

Either way, you would not be considered retarded anymore if you passed those tests, so I am not sure what the argument is about except to brag that you are a functional retard.

If you are indeed as functional as you claim, you would no longer fit into that 'retard' category.

I really don't get what you are trying to prove though.
 
EliteRetard said:
Where are you getting your definition?

By your rule all autistic people are stupid, or all autistic people are not retarded.

This would apply to any condition considered "retarded", and simply isn't logical.

Here's an example:
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...y-genius-iq-higher-einstein-article-1.1340923

This kid is actually far ahead of me, both intellectually and socially (I still cant get in front of a crowd). A big part of it is because his parents recognized his real issue and got him what he needed relatively early. More and more today people are actually trying to understand and help retarded people.

Now I'm not saying I would have turned out as good as this kid, but back when I was a child I was stuck with people like you, who insisted that "retard=stupid". These people refused to let me learn or be creative and do things my way. It was these close minded people that even convinced my parents that I was essentially worthless and there was nothing they could do. I also had 3 "normal" siblings so my parents had their hands full.

They needed to work to support us so I was sent to school with the rest of my siblings, and it was there I had 9-10 years of hearing "you're a worthless stupid retard" and being pushed aside. So I missed a very important stage of growth and learning which made things very difficult, for me and my parents. It wasn't until about 11 years old my parents finally figured out what the real issue was and began finding solutions to the problem.

They worked hard to help me though and did their best to find people who weren't so prejudice. Slowly I was able to learn and grow and the effect was exponential. In around 6 years I went from a non verbal, curled up, "worthless stupid retard", to getting my first part time job. Then I had another 3-4 years or so to pick up everything else I had missed, before I had to move out and face the real world on my own.

That was a massive challenge for me, and I still find it difficult to this day. To cope with the challenge I essentially focused on work, while still trying to gain intellectual and practical knowledge, and avoided any and all social life. The hard work and frugality though is what has afforded me this early retirement. I'm no longer a useless retard and I'm not stupid either. Certainly no genius, or social elite, but I have the capacity to learn and improve even more.

These examples I've provided are evidence that given the chance us "retards" can become socially acceptable, productive, useful members of society. We can't totally remove the label though, because we aren't normal, sometimes people need to know in order to understand, accept, and work with us.

Your idea that all retards are stupid is a terrible stereotype perpetuated by the ignorant. Well I suppose that is my opinion, and I would certainly love to see your evidence that all retards are stupid.
Click to expand...

Username: eliteretard
 
Naer said:
Username: eliteretard
Click to expand...

I'm sort of sorry that I posted anything about his name in my post to derail this thread so badly. Was trying to compliment a great accomplishment (assuming it's true) and it's turned to shit.

/so is my life....lol.
 
Engineer said:
I'm sort of sorry that I posted anything about his name in my post to derail this thread so badly. Was trying to compliment a great accomplishment (assuming it's true) and it's turned to shit.

/so is my life....lol.
Click to expand...

You're fine, I understood that you were making a compliment...I think it was my fault for making a snarky comment about it. So I apologize, you shouldn't regret giving a compliment. *HUGS* :wub:

OK enough people touching.
Anywho this thread didn't turn to shit, it changed topics but remained an interesting discussion.

But I've decided I'm not going to continue the discussion here. If somebody wants to try to start up the discussion again they need to make a new thread. I'm not going to do it, to many implications. I feel like I already made to big a deal of this when it's really not an issue for me.

I want to thank everybody for their input so far, it's been interesting and worthwhile getting alternative opinions.
 
....Came back to see talk of the credit dispensing devices of the elite. Instead I find something about autism and the definition of retard. Okay.
 
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