YART: The REAL problem with religions...

[busmaster11]

So I'm Chinese-American, and a Christian, but this thread is not for debating between different religions. It's to discuss what I believe to be the fundamental human flaw in exercising their faith. It seems that what has turned many people off to religions and not coincidentally, what has been perhaps the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today, is extremism associated with the fact that people like to associate deeply, their ethnic heritage to a religion.

I believe if there is truth to any religion, it must hold equal respect and consideration in terms of rewards and punishments for every man on earth, no matter if you are black, white, asian, whatever.

Yet many Christians and Cathloics are such in name only. Living unGodly lives, but going to all the rituals and functions and calling themselves Christians and Catholics only because they are so tightly integrated into their Italian or Irish or whatever ancestry.

The few Jews I know are like that too. To them there's religious ritual, and more importantly, their ethnic background. Ask them about having a personal relationship with their God, and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. And the fact that there are comparatively few Jewish missionaries and even fewer black or asian Jews conflicts with my main premise.

And Islam. What else is there to say? Not just Bin Laden, but many Arabs - even moderate ones, see the recent occurences as a fight between the Arabs and the western world.

Why must one always accept the religion of their parents and grandparents as the default? Why must one associate their religion with their ethnicity or ancestry or heritage? If that alone makes it the true one, then why doesn't make someone else's the true one as well?

It's such a dangerous attitude to have. I'm proud of my heritage, and I'd love to share it with anyone who wants to know about it. But its separate from my religion. Perhaps its just easier for me to detach the two because most Chinese people really don't have much except Buddhism and folk religions. But I'll always be a Christian, and why I am one is a separate thread. Why I'm not Buddhist like my parents and grandparents, is because I don't find myself so blinded by ethnic pride that I can't objectively explore my own sense of logic, reasoning and truth.

These are the reasons why I feel that if God allowed free will, we have used it to make the wrong choices and fail Him.

 

[MithShrike]

Aye, I have free will as well. I grew up a Christian until I really thought about what exactly it was I was doing. Now, and for a while, I believe in nothing whatsoever.

 

[Cyberian]

Christians and Cathloics

Catholics are Christians.

fewer black or asian Jews

Not really too surprising. considering where Judaism originated.

And Thank God someone finally started a religion thread in ATOT.

 

[Emveach]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

And Thank God someone finally started a religion thread in ATOT.

I think there was one other.....guess you missed it.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

Christians and Cathloics

Catholics are Christians.

fewer black or asian Jews

Not really too surprising. considering where Judaism originated.

And Thank God someone finally started a religion thread in ATOT.

I don't believe Cathlolics are Christians. If you care to start another thread, I'll brace myself for flamage and tell you why.

Every religion started somewhere. Judaism and Christianity origniated in the same place. Whats your point?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: busmaster11
what has been perhaps the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today, is extremism associated with the fact that people like to associate deeply, their ethnic heritage to a religion.

Uhmm, what about communism? Didn't communists kill about 100 million on the last century alone?

Guess it just more fun to bash religion than Godless ideologies.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: busmaster11
what has been perhaps the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today, is extremism associated with the fact that people like to associate deeply, their ethnic heritage to a religion.

Uhmm, what about communism? Didn't communists kill about 100 million on the last century alone?

Guess it just more fun to bash religion than Godless ideologies.

Did you even read my post? I'm not bashing religion at all! I'm bashing people's perspectives on it.

And I did say perhaps. While I don't necessarily disagree with many of the philosophies on marxism, I do believe that communism is the biggest most tragic experiment in the 20th century and it should never be repeated again.

Please read the post before you make blind comments.

 

[Riprorin]

When you say religion is the greatest source of tragedy, that's not bashing religion?

Now you say it's communism.

So, which is the greatest source of human tragedy?

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
When you say religion is the greatest source of tragedy, that's not bashing religion?

Now you say it's communism.

So, which is the greatest source of human tragedy?

Religion threads in OT!

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
When you say religion is the greatest source of tragedy, that's not bashing religion?

Now you say it's communism.

So, which is the greatest source of human tragedy?

I did not "say" religion is the greatest source of tragedy. Why would I when I'm a Christian as I said before?

It seems that what has turned many people off to religions and not coincidentally, what has been perhaps the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today, is extremism associated with the fact that people like to associate deeply, their ethnic heritage to a religion.

I know this is hard to understand, but please read the post before you comment.
Please don't split hairs with me when you can't even quote me correctly.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: busmaster11
I don't believe Cathlolics are Christians. If you care to start another thread, I'll brace myself for flamage and tell you why.

As a former Protestant (~16 years), I object to that statement. YHPM.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: Riprorin
When you say religion is the greatest source of tragedy, that's not bashing religion?

Now you say it's communism.

So, which is the greatest source of human tragedy?

I did not "say" religion is the greatest source of tragedy. Why would I when I'm a Christian as I said before?

It seems that what has turned many people off to religions and not coincidentally, what has been perhaps the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today, is extremism associated with the fact that people like to associate deeply, their ethnic heritage to a religion.

I know this is hard to understand, but please read the post before you comment.
Please don't split hairs with me when you can't even quote me correctly.

You didn't answer my question. What's been the greater cause of tragedy, religion or Godless ideologies? You can't have it both ways.

 

[MournSanity]

This is gonna turn ugly. *Runs away from thread*

 

[Luagsch]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

These are the reasons why I feel that if God allowed free will, we have used it to make the wrong choices and fail Him.

why are we supposted to not fail him? who is he to judge us? it's my free choice to ask those questions and choose the answers. do i even have a chance vs a presumably almighty something? (guess not, that's why religion works). what sick fsck he must be to make a such experiment with humanity. "will torture humans for faith and sick entertainment".

(well i know it's quite a rant and it's not all that bad and stuff, but seriously i don't see the sense in it.)

oh i'm getting on fire: he wants that humans worship him, love him (besides living a happy and god life) etc etc... why??? has he a complex or something? grow up god!!!! and what's with (christian related) sending jesus to earth for our sins? so jesus was with no fault, great. he grow up in under-mittleclass enviroment, walked around for three years healing people and talking (getting food for free...). shure he was a humiliated and died a rather cruel death (knowing he would be ressurected!!!!!) , because god loves humans and sent he's only son to earth... so jesus was god's tool, nice. he gets to do the dirty job and gets what god decided before. nice. contract completed, here's the money pal...

well my point with god/gods seems quite clear, that's why i definitly prefer philosophies like buddhism.
i assume that a lot of other people think in such a direction (which explains the boom of east philosophie in the last decatedes in the west (also the boom of new age stuff)). doesn't mean i believe that stuff either...

i would think of myself of a agnostic atheist, and i'm gonna see what will be coming...

(sorry if i offended somebody, but this is what my free(?) will decided to write and are just my 2 cents (weighted in rubels (sp?)).

EDIT english or something

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
You didn't answer my question. What's been the greater cause of tragedy, religion or Godless ideologies? You can't have it both ways.

Riprorin, I honestly don't know. I've never said I did know, nor does anything I said imply I did, or do they depend on such knowledge, so stop trying to pin me down. Could you please at least acknowledge that you have no desire to comment on the gist of my initial post, nor even to read it and understand it?

For your question I would lean towards religion, however, because you would have to include most of the genocides prior to the 20th century, including what happened during the Crusades, etc... as well as the holocaust, etc, though I admit to not knowing the figure for who people killed in the name of Communism in Vietnam, Cambodia, China, Korea, and the USSR.

And hey, if I'm wrong, thats fine too. Thats never been the topic. Start a new thread if you want, but go away if you're going to be a troll.

 

[Wuffsunie]

Originally posted by: busmaster11The few Jews I know are like that too. To them there's religious ritual, and more importantly, their ethnic background. Ask them about having a personal relationship with their God, and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. And the fact that there are comparatively few Jewish missionaries and even fewer black or Asian Jews conflicts with my main premise.

Well, this is rather easy to explain. The other two major western religions have built into them the notion of converting the rest of the world to their way of thinking/believing/worshipping. Christians are told expressly to do that in the bible if I recall correctly. As for Muslims, I believe there is something about converting others to your way whether they want to or not. Very odd religion that one.

The Jews aren't like that. They're the chosen ppl of God and they know it. You can either convert to their religion or not, they don't care. No where in their holy writings are they told to convert others. They've been told "You're it."

Why must one always accept the religion of their parents and grandparents as the default? Why must one associate their religion with their ethnicity or ancestry or heritage? If that alone makes it the true one, then why doesn't make someone else's the true one as well?

Another easy one; tradition. You're forgetting that all religions think that they're the one, true way to reach God/Heaven/Nirvana. Parents naturally want to do what is best for their kids, and thus raise them in the local religion because it's the "right" one. Allowing choice between religions means that the child might choose wrong, and then what do you say? That you're wrong, as was your choice of paths to God? That is a SERIOUS bit of undermining for both parental and religious authorities.

As for associating regions and heritage with religions, that happens because up until very recently, human beings haven't been able to truly mix together on a global scale. Thus a religion for a region is like its language. It's the way it is because enough ppl in that area during the past have done things that way.

I believe if there is truth to any religion, it must hold equal respect and consideration in terms of rewards and punishments for every man on earth, no matter if you are black, white, Asian, whatever.

Heeheehee. Most religions have that in their fundamental doctrines. It's just that a great deal of their followers are picky and choosey about what bits they'll use and how, exactly.

Now... does any one want to lay money on this thread not even reaching a second page before things degenerate as they usually do around here?

-- Jack

We have just religion enough to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.
-- Jonathan Swift

 

[Riprorin]

I'm just questioning the basic premise of your argument ie, religion is the greatest cause of the tragedies in history and today.

That's quite an indictment.

I'm not really following your argument. Can you distill it down to a couple of pithy statements?

 

[Wuffsunie]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
When you say religion is the greatest source of tragedy, that's not bashing religion?

Now you say it's communism.

So, which is the greatest source of human tragedy?

Dude, be careful what you read. He said Communism has the lock on the 20th century. Religion, though, as a monolopy on the rest of human history

Originally posted by: Trinitron
Religion threads in OT!

Trinitron, right on man!! :beer:

-- Jack

Relgion: A system which explains the otherwise unexplainable, predicts the otherwise unpredictable, and prevents the otherwise unpreventable.

 

[Riprorin]

In the 20th century, 100 million people were killed by communism.

How many people do you think were killed in the name of Christ?

Don't forget that unlike other religions, Christ never taught to spread the Christain faith through vilolence.

 

[busmaster11]

Another easy one; tradition. You're forgetting that all religions think that they're the one, true way to reach God/Heaven/Nirvana. Parents naturally want to do what is best for their kids, and thus raise them in the local religion because it's the "right" one. Allowing choice between religions means that the child might choose wrong, and then what do you say? That you're wrong, as was your choice of paths to God? That is a SERIOUS bit of undermining for both parental and religious authorities.

As for associating regions and heritage with religions, that happens because up until very recently, human beings haven't been able to truly mix together on a global scale. Thus a religion for a region is like its language. It's the way it is because enough ppl in that area during the past have done things that way.

Thanks for the first intelligent well thoght out reply.

I have not forgotten the tradition part at all. I acknoeledge it. My conclusion was that its just not very bright of people to think the way they do. You've raised some good points about the history of how people were and how that impacts us now. Hopefully things will change gradually.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Another easy one; tradition. You're forgetting that all religions think that they're the one, true way to reach God/Heaven/Nirvana.

I don't beleive that this statement is true.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

I don't walk around going "I'm a Christian-American" so why should others go around going "I'm Chinese-American"?

That's bullsh|t. You're not "Chinese American," you're either Chinese or American.

Grr...

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Another easy one; tradition. You're forgetting that all religions think that they're the one, true way to reach God/Heaven/Nirvana.

I don't beleive that this statement is true.

It's not.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In the 20th century, 100 million people were killed by communism.

How many people do you think were killed in the name of Christ?

Don't forget that unlike other religions, Christ never taught to spread the Christain faith through vilolence.

*sigh*

I don't know how many people were killed in the name of Christ...

And I do agree with your last comment, esp. in the case of Islam.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
In the 20th century, 100 million people were killed by communism.

How many people do you think were killed in the name of Christ?

Don't forget that unlike other religions, Christ never taught to spread the Christain faith through vilolence.

True. But God has instructed the use of "vilolence" to have his will fulfilled. And, since God can turn everything that is evil into something that is good, it probably was a message to someone else for a reason. Just because God is a god of love doesn't mean that "vilolence" is out of the picture entirely.