YART: Simple question I've been pondering.

[aplefka]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: aplefka
I kinda wonder about stuff like this a lot.

If you're a cop and you end up killing someone in a firefight, are you a bad person for it?

If you're in the military, and it's point blank with another man with his gun pointed at your head and you have the quicker trigger finger, gonna go to hell?

I dunno, I'd like to say it works itself out but one could never know that.

AKA, it's all a bunch of balogna?

AKA God will make the decision if you killed the person out of desire to or out of necessity.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
*backs out of thread very slowly before Nebor or MichaelD get here*

I didn't realize I had a reputation for this kind of thread... Do I?

Anyways, I've recently gone from an indifferent stance on the death penalty (not an issue in my life) to being against it. I just can't see that it's right for the government to kill people. What if they're wrong? What if anything? We trust a government that can't balance a budget to decide who lives and who dies? It just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix
*backs out of thread very slowly before Nebor or MichaelD get here*

I didn't realize I had a reputation for this kind of thread... Do I?

Anyways, I've recently gone from an indifferent stance on the death penalty (not an issue in my life) to being against it. I just can't see that it's right for the government to kill people. What if they're wrong? What if anything? We trust a government that can't balance a budget to decide who lives and who dies? It just doesn't seem right to me.

Present soup of the day excluded when did the government get to decide. It is a Jury and a Judge. After that there are appeals. I am concerned about getting things wrong though but would rather do things that would come closer to where we didn't. Like only a death sentence if DNA or other "absolute" proofs were found (confession, video, etc..).
I'm also for death penalties for crimes other than murder or treason and much stiffer penalties on other crimes.

 

[Yax]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Yax
I take it you don't agree with the death penalty?

I find it funny how the dictionary someone linked to earlier defined murder as an "unlawful" killing of someone. I guess that would make execution and killing in war a "lawful" killing. Doesn't make me feel very comfortable.

Actually, I do believe in the death penalty (I never said I didn't). But only for the most heinous murders with either a truthful confession or extremely convincing evidence. IMO some acts simply cannot be forgiven, and some twisted individuals need to be hastened to the Judgement of God (or whatever).

Reality tends to make most people uncomfortable at times, including myself. There's no safety this side of the grave, and sometimes it's kill or be killed. Nobody says you have to like it...

Oh okay, so would you be able to recommend the death penalty to a criminal if you felt he was guilty of a heinous crime? How about if you were chosen to pull the switch? I'm just asking because I think every time the Jury recommends the death penalty, they're also ordering someone to kill.

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TBone48
The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

(referring to the US) The state is not in power by the grace of God. The state is in power because people fought and earned their independence from England back in 1776. Following this, people wrote the Constitution, and people acting on behalf of everyone who would become citizens of the new nation ratified this Constitution, thus providing the framework for the new government.

No "grace of God" required, nor necessary.

I'm writing from an Evangelical Christian perspective. I believe that everything (including governments) exists because they are part of God's plan. I don't pretend to know or understand everything God is up to. I hope this clears up my earlier statement. As I said, it's a personal belief. I don't expect everyone to think as I do- the world would be way boring!

Is your personal belief willing to accept that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were appointed by God?
Simply because God is perfect and all-knowing and set the wheels in motion does not mean that He didn't give us Free Will.
In the meantime, your personal beliefs (which you entitled to have) are dangerous, as they have lead to terrible abuses and corruptions in His Name, something I have difficulty abiding with.

What is dangerous about believing God has a plan? That's a fundamental (no pun intended) belief in the Judeo-Christian theology. I don't think God "appoints" people, at least not in the Old Testament sense. (Moses, Abraham, David, etc.) HItler, Pol Pot, Stalin... they were a product of 2 things- our basic sinful nature and man's free will to make choices, good or evil. I think maybe you read something into what I posted since we both seem to agree on the concept of free will.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: TBone48
What is dangerous about believing God has a plan? That's a fundamental (no pun intended) belief in the Judeo-Christian theology. I don't think God "appoints" people, at least not in the Old Testament sense. (Moses, Abraham, David, etc.) HItler, Pol Pot, Stalin... they were a product of 2 things- our basic sinful nature and man's free will to make choices, good or evil. I think maybe you read something into what I posted since we both seem to agree on the concept of free will.

Your statement regarding the state being power by grace of God, etc. has been too greatly abused in the past, as I mentioned. It can lead good people to assume that the state will always act in a fashion that is righteous, or with God's blessing, which is grossly incorrect. Of course God has a plan. But be wary of men who claim to know just what that plan is.
In the meantime, human government is only a creation of God because humans are a creation of God. After all, humans invented heroin only because God created humans, and is not heroin evil? Government is very much the same. Good for some things (heroin does have rare medicinal uses), but evil when abused, and just as addictive.

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TBone48
What is dangerous about believing God has a plan? That's a fundamental (no pun intended) belief in the Judeo-Christian theology. I don't think God "appoints" people, at least not in the Old Testament sense. (Moses, Abraham, David, etc.) HItler, Pol Pot, Stalin... they were a product of 2 things- our basic sinful nature and man's free will to make choices, good or evil. I think maybe you read something into what I posted since we both seem to agree on the concept of free will.

Your statement regarding the state being power by grace of God, etc. has been too greatly abused in the past, as I mentioned. It can lead good people to assume that the state will always act in a fashion that is righteous, or with God's blessing, which is grossly incorrect. Of course God has a plan. But be wary of men who claim to know just what that plan is.
In the meantime, human government is only a creation of God because humans are a creation of God. After all, humans invented heroin only because God created humans, and is not heroin evil? Government is very much the same. Good for some things (heroin does have rare medicinal uses), but evil when abused, and just as addictive.

OK we do agree. I was definitely not implying that any government or ruling power was inherently right or good because of some divine blessing. I apologize if I was unclear. YOur points are well taken and more coherently expressed than mine.

 

[Raiden256]

Originally posted by: SWScorch
Wasn't Jesus the ultimate pacifist, what with turning the other cheek and all? It seems to me that his example would be to accept it and not fight back, even if it means getting killed.

Uh... yeah. That's pretty much what happened right?