YART: Simple question I've been pondering.

[DotheDamnTHing]

Originally posted by: aplefka
I kinda wonder about stuff like this a lot.

If you're a cop and you end up killing someone in a firefight, are you a bad person for it?

If you're in the military, and it's point blank with another man with his gun pointed at your head and you have the quicker trigger finger, gonna go to hell?

I dunno, I'd like to say it works itself out but one could never know that.

good questions

 

[dullard]

My thoughts:

1) The pope is clearly against the death penalty. He has said so many times. Many other Christian variations also are against the death penalty. Thus your original premise is wrong for so many religions.

2) The bible clearly supports the death penalty. There are so many different examples in there where the death penalty is supported - adultery for example should result in a stoning to death. Quotes came from a quick google search, so please don't complain if they aren't perfect.

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Etc. If the bible supports the death penalty, why should Christians be against it?

3) When someone is put to death, it is the state's doing. It is NOT the executioner's doing. The state and only the state puts the person to death. There is no commandment for what a state is or is not to do. The jury is in no way responsible for what the state may or may not do.

4) My own religious jab: if God wants the person alive, God will not let him die. You can try the execution as many times as you want, it will not work. Only God can take a life.

 

[aplefka]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I have wondered that. I've not looked, but I've not heard a good argument from a christian on why the death penalty is ok by them.

Maybe because they see them selves as the spokesmen of God?

Typical atheistic remark. Trust me, I in no way consider myself to be a spokesman of God.

Either you've had the luck to have had several bad experiences or you're just being a douche, but either way, I guarantee the majority of Christians and even followers of other religions do not think of themselves as God's president of operations on earth.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: dullard

2) The bible clearly supports the death penalty. There are so many different examples in there where the death penalty is supported - adultery for example should result in a stoning to death. Quotes came from a quick google search, so please don't complain if they aren't perfect.

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Etc. If the bible supports the death penalty, why should Christians be against it?

I asked my priest this same question when I was a child. He told me about a story in the New Testament, which I'm going to paraphrase here, because I don't remember the book or chapter number and it will take forever to find again:

Many were upset over the following that Christ had gathered, and to try and humiliate him they brought an adulteress before him, asking how she should be punished. They were intending to make him look hypocritical: the Bible said she was to be stoned to death, and if he said "Forgive her and let her go", it would be disregarding the laws. Instead, Jesus stood up and said "Let the man here with no sin be the first to cast a stone." And no one did.

The Old Testment was written from the standpoint that no one in the world should ever commit sins, and those who did were to be punished to keep society "pure". The New Testament, which is what defines a Christian, accepts sin as a part of human nature, and views it as something to be struggled with and overcome by each soul in their pursuit of reaching heaven.

3) When someone is put to death, it is the state's doing. It is NOT the executioner's doing. The state and only the state puts the person to death. There is no commandment for what a state is or is not to do. The jury is in no way responsible for what the state may or may not do.

That is your personal opinion. I believe everyone who is a part of and actively upholds a system that sends a man to his death bears some responsibility for it. Whether or not they are right in doing it is another topic. I definitely believe there are criminals in the world who deserve to die. I'm just not convinced we have the right to actually do it. Once again, that's my opinion.

 

[SWScorch]

Originally posted by: aplefka
I kinda wonder about stuff like this a lot.

If you're a cop and you end up killing someone in a firefight, are you a bad person for it?

If you're in the military, and it's point blank with another man with his gun pointed at your head and you have the quicker trigger finger, gonna go to hell?

I dunno, I'd like to say it works itself out but one could never know that.

Wasn't Jesus the ultimate pacifist, what with turning the other cheek and all? It seems to me that his example would be to accept it and not fight back, even if it means getting killed.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Yax
So for Christians: if I recall correctly, the bible says "thou shall not kill" and also something like "do onto others as you would have done onto yourself".

If this is true, I'm just wondering about how christians can justify the death penalty. I mean, can a christian be the one doing the injection or pulling the switch? Or how about being on the jury and recommending the death penalty, wouldn't that make you partially responsible for someone's death?

This crosses my mind everytime I'm called for Jury duty. I just wonder if I could be on a jury for a criminal case where the Death Penalty is a possibility.

as far as roman catholics go, they oppose capital punishment

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Yax

Originally posted by: OrganizedChaos
thou shalt not kill is a translation error that everybody knows about but nobody aknowledges (i can never spell that). hebrew really dosen't translate that well to anything else but its closer to thou shalt not murder.

So you're saying, if we execute someone, its not murder?

That's right. http://www.answers.com/murder

 

[FoBoT]

the "state" executing a criminal isn't murder, it is justice

 

[Yax]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
the "state" executing a criminal isn't murder, it is justice

The state does not execute anyone, its the people pulling the switch or doing the injections.

 

[TBone48]

The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Yax
So for Christians: if I recall correctly, the bible says "thou shall not kill" and also something like "do onto others as you would have done onto yourself".

If this is true, I'm just wondering about how christians can justify the death penalty. I mean, can a christian be the one doing the injection or pulling the switch? Or how about being on the jury and recommending the death penalty, wouldn't that make you partially responsible for someone's death?

This crosses my mind everytime I'm called for Jury duty. I just wonder if I could be on a jury for a criminal case where the Death Penalty is a possibility.

The translation from the original text is lost on this passage.

 

[Atomicus]

There's a verse in the bible which says that man shall obey the laws of the land just as he must obey the laws of the heavens.
Also, most Christians are anti-death penalty mostly because of passages saying that you should not judge others since you're sinful and that in itself is worthy of death. Like the story of "let the first person without sin cast the first stone"

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: aplefka
I kinda wonder about stuff like this a lot.

If you're a cop and you end up killing someone in a firefight, are you a bad person for it?

If you're in the military, and it's point blank with another man with his gun pointed at your head and you have the quicker trigger finger, gonna go to hell?

I dunno, I'd like to say it works itself out but one could never know that.

AKA, it's all a bunch of balogna?

 

[QuitBanningMe]

This one is easy. It is a mistranslation. I believe it should be something along the lines of "Thou shalt not commit murder". Completely different than "killing" at least according to the Bible.

Edit; Too late.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: SWScorch

Originally posted by: aplefka
I kinda wonder about stuff like this a lot.

If you're a cop and you end up killing someone in a firefight, are you a bad person for it?

If you're in the military, and it's point blank with another man with his gun pointed at your head and you have the quicker trigger finger, gonna go to hell?

I dunno, I'd like to say it works itself out but one could never know that.

Wasn't Jesus the ultimate pacifist, what with turning the other cheek and all? It seems to me that his example would be to accept it and not fight back, even if it means getting killed.

No.

 

[ConwayJim]

what about the crusades?

Where Christines slayed millions in the name of God?

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Originally posted by: ConwayJim
what about the crusades?

Where Christines slayed millions in the name of God?

What about them?

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: TBone48
The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

(referring to the US) The state is not in power by the grace of God. The state is in power because people fought and earned their independence from England back in 1776. Following this, people wrote the Constitution, and people acting on behalf of everyone who would become citizens of the new nation ratified this Constitution, thus providing the framework for the new government.

No "grace of God" required, nor necessary.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: ConwayJim
what about the crusades?

Where Christines slayed millions in the name of God?

Most people (including Christians) with an ounce of intelligence realize that the crusades were, for the most part, bullsh!t done in the Lord's name by corrupted people in power.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: ConwayJim
what about the crusades?

Where Christines slayed millions in the name of God?

Most people (including Christians) with an ounce of intelligence realize that the crusades were, for the most part, bullsh!t done in the Lord's name by corrupted people in power.

You must mean Pope Urban II?

 

[TBone48]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TBone48
The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

(referring to the US) The state is not in power by the grace of God. The state is in power because people fought and earned their independence from England back in 1776. Following this, people wrote the Constitution, and people acting on behalf of everyone who would become citizens of the new nation ratified this Constitution, thus providing the framework for the new government.

No "grace of God" required, nor necessary.

I'm writing from an Evangelical Christian perspective. I believe that everything (including governments) exists because they are part of God's plan. I don't pretend to know or understand everything God is up to. I hope this clears up my earlier statement. As I said, it's a personal belief. I don't expect everyone to think as I do- the world would be way boring!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TBone48
The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

(referring to the US) The state is not in power by the grace of God. The state is in power because people fought and earned their independence from England back in 1776. Following this, people wrote the Constitution, and people acting on behalf of everyone who would become citizens of the new nation ratified this Constitution, thus providing the framework for the new government.

No "grace of God" required, nor necessary.

I'm writing from an Evangelical Christian perspective. I believe that everything (including governments) exists because they are part of God's plan. I don't pretend to know or understand everything God is up to. I hope this clears up my earlier statement. As I said, it's a personal belief. I don't expect everyone to think as I do- the world would be way boring!

Is your personal belief willing to accept that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were appointed by God?
Simply because God is perfect and all-knowing and set the wheels in motion does not mean that He didn't give us Free Will.
In the meantime, your personal beliefs (which you entitled to have) are dangerous, as they have lead to terrible abuses and corruptions in His Name, something I have difficulty abiding with.

 

[Yax]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: TBone48

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: TBone48
The state is in power by the grace of God. It's purpose is to carry out Gods' justice in the case of criminal prosecution and punishment. That's why our legal system is based largely on biblical principals. In a perfect world, a person would be tried, judged, and sentenced fairly according to the crime they had committed. If death were deemed to be warranted, it would be administered by the state acting for God. Note I said in a perfect world, which we obviously do not live in. What with all the corruption in our governing bodies I am unable to support the death penalty myself. However, from the biblical viewpoint it IS justified.

Please remember, this is what I think, I don't expect everyone to agree- don't flip out!

(referring to the US) The state is not in power by the grace of God. The state is in power because people fought and earned their independence from England back in 1776. Following this, people wrote the Constitution, and people acting on behalf of everyone who would become citizens of the new nation ratified this Constitution, thus providing the framework for the new government.

No "grace of God" required, nor necessary.

I'm writing from an Evangelical Christian perspective. I believe that everything (including governments) exists because they are part of God's plan. I don't pretend to know or understand everything God is up to. I hope this clears up my earlier statement. As I said, it's a personal belief. I don't expect everyone to think as I do- the world would be way boring!

Is your personal belief willing to accept that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were appointed by God?
Simply because God is perfect and all-knowing and set the wheels in motion does not mean that He didn't give us Free Will.
In the meantime, your personal beliefs (which you entitled to have) are dangerous, as they have lead to terrible abuses and corruptions in His Name, something I have difficulty abiding with.

I take it you don't agree with the death penalty?

I find it funny how the dictionary someone linked to earlier defined murder as an "unlawful" killing of someone. I guess that would make execution and killing in war a "lawful" killing. Doesn't make me feel very comfortable.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

I take it you don't agree with the death penalty?

I find it funny how the dictionary someone linked to earlier defined murder as an "unlawful" killing of someone. I guess that would make execution and killing in war a "lawful" killing. Doesn't make me feel very comfortable.

You don't believe in killing under any circumstances? Doesn't make me feel very comfortable.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Yax
I take it you don't agree with the death penalty?

I find it funny how the dictionary someone linked to earlier defined murder as an "unlawful" killing of someone. I guess that would make execution and killing in war a "lawful" killing. Doesn't make me feel very comfortable.

Actually, I do believe in the death penalty (I never said I didn't). But only for the most heinous murders with either a truthful confession or extremely convincing evidence. IMO some acts simply cannot be forgiven, and some twisted individuals need to be hastened to the Judgement of God (or whatever).

Reality tends to make most people uncomfortable at times, including myself. There's no safety this side of the grave, and sometimes it's kill or be killed. Nobody says you have to like it...