Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
1. I KNOW what a power pitcher is and what premier means, but what I'm saying is that YOU are defining it with YOUR OPINION. Let the statistics tell the story, NOT your opinion. No offense, but you have no idea what you are talking about here. Mussina had a K/9 of 8.17 last year and an 8.07 K/9 over the last three seasons. That's lower than Oswalt over the last three years. The same goes for Colon. I like how you tossed in a couple of relievers, too, since there are obviously few starters with a K/9 over 9.00. And what's with this 'etc' at the end? You put that there as if there are plenty of more - there aren't. Success has been guaranteed for these players? How so? Please tell me and show me the statistics for that. Or did you make this up and hoping that I won't call you out on it? This is BS until you provide the proof.
2. You see, you are only taking one season...a season where Oswalt was also bothered by injuries. And one season can be too small of a sample size. If Pettite is a power pitcher, then so are Oswalt and Miller. Oswalt not only has better 'stuff' than Pettite, but he also shows a better current skill right now than Pettite. I would say that Miller is at the very least equal in current skill to Pettite, too.
3. No, I'm saying that it does matter what park he is in. I don't care WHAT type of pitcher he is here. The simple fact is that Minute Maid Park is a hitter's park and Yankee Stadium is neutral/slight pitcher's park. You are acting as if Pettite never gives up homeruns or flyballs. He does and those would hurt even more in Minute Maid Park.
4. Wins are a team contribution. I asked for more than the W-L record and I guess you didn't want to provide it because you knew it would hurt your case. No offense, but I'm going to look up what you state. Pettite's World Series ERA: 5.08, postseason ERA: 4.49
5. He may not have a better K/9, but he'll probably have a better ERA, ERA+, and better advanced statistics going for him.
6. This is getting really tiring. We don't KNOW what Pettite woud do, but it's very doubtful that he'll start advancing at the age of 35-40 like Moyer. Again, if you want to proclaim that every pitcher will advance to a new level to the age of 40 and that every batter will reach his peak at the age of 37 (Bonds), then go on right ahead but that would just make you look ridiculous. If you're complaining about this being the exception and that I'm singling out your players, then please go ahead and name some other 40 year old pitchers that are doing fantastic and compare that number to the number of pitchers that never made it to 40.
7. I said 'that makes no sense' in reference to you saying that in the postseason only wins and losses matter, but in the regular season the real stats matter. Make up your mind - you can't have it both ways.
No offense and I apologize if it sounds that I'm attacking you in this post. Also, why are you not a fan of ERA+, but are a fan of ERA? That makes almost no sense. Why are you a fan of K/9, but not a fan of BB/9 and HR/9? Most people that look at K/9 also look at BB/9 and HR/9, under the assumption that these are the only three things that a pitcher truly controls.
1) First off, Mike Mussina pitched more than 200+ innings in the past 3 years in a harder league (and to say that Oswalt pitched in a harder park is BS, only half of his starts are at home and NY pitchers face a tougher league EVERY NIGHT). When injury prone Oswalt manages to rack up more than 200 innings in more than ONE year THEN we'll compare K/9 over 3 years to Mike Mussina. And just to entertain you, Mike Mussina beat Oswalt in K/9 AND WHIP (2 of my 3 req's).
2) Well, skill level is your opinion. I already stated I think Oswalt has the talent to be a premier power pitcher, but he's not at Andy's skill level. And yes, statistically, Pettite was close to power pitcher status last year.
3) To reiterate, Pettite and any NY pitcher has to pitch in a better league EVERY START. Houston pitchers pitch half of their games at home, so yes, to complain about Houston's stadium is BS, it will theoretically affect Houston's pitcher's stats 50% of the time.
4) You posted Pettite's ERA in the postseason, so what? Pettite's ERA has always been high, look at his regular lifetime ERA of close to 4. To reiterate, ERA and wins/loss can also be decided by the rest of the team b/c of defensive capabilities. We saw what Pettite did last year, he was the primary reason the Yankees advanced in both AL contests, and the main point is that he
gets better every year in the postseason.
5) Pure speculation.
6) Very doubtful that Pettite won't get better this year like Moyer did? That's your opinion again, we have to agree to disagree.
7) I was arguing regular season stats just to humor you, ultimately yes postseason wins are all that matters b/c you can throw all regular season stats out the window.
Nothing personal taken. I don't like ERA+ b/c people act like it's the be all and end all of pitching stats, when it's not. Not a fan of bb/9 and hr/9 b/c WHIP takes that into account. WHIP doesn't not take into account k/9, correct me if I'm wrong here.
1. If Oswalt is injury prone (with a non-pitching injury), then I guess Pettite is, too. I thought this discussion was about Pettite, not Mussina. Again, you fail to acknowledge some of my points. Although Oswalt is relatively new, he still has 500 innings of MLB baseball. That is a large enough sample size. If Mussina is a 'premier power pitcher', then so is Oswalt. So show me how the success of these players are guaranteed. Or did you just make up some BS?
2. Statistically, Oswalt is closer to being a power pitcher than Pettite is. Statistically, Oswalt is already better than Pettite...by using most advanced statistics, common ones like ERA+, and by your three stats that you are in love with.
3. Playing half of your home games in a pitcher's park is enormously significant. To ignore that is to be ignorant. We're talking about HALF of an ENTIRE baseball season! This is saying that since Colorado hitters only play half of their games in their home park, that saying that their stats are inflated is ridiculous. You're showing a pretty poor knowledge of baseball here. In addition, as I already showed, Oswalt and Pettite faced similar quality of batters.
4. A lifetime ERA of 4 isn't great. Oswalt has a lifetime ERA of 2.92 right now. Sure, ERA is team dependent, as is WHIP, but I GUARANTEE you that Oswalt has a much lower DIPS ERA than Pettite. It won't even be close.
5. No way, speculation? No way! Of course it is! Just like you were.
6. Well Pettite isn't even near Moyer's age. Again, we don't know what Pettite will be like next season, but the CHANCES of him improving are a lot smaller than the CHANCES of someone at Oswalt's age of improving.
7. You can't have it both ways.
Again, why are you a fan of ERA but not of ERA+? ERA+ is much better than ERA. No stat is the be all and end all of everything, but some stats are better than others. ERA+ is simply far superior to ERA. It makes absolutely no sense as to why you are using ERA but not ERA+. Anyways, I'm sure that most statistics will show that Oswalt is better than Pettite.
No offense, but I can't really take you very seriously if you have no idea what you're talking about with these stats. WHIP does not take into account K/9 or HR/9. It's walks and hits.
I don't think that there's any possible way that either one of us will agree on anything here. I think that I'm far more into statistics than you are (which can be a problem for me sometimes........and I'm not even anything near an expert or well versed with stats) and some of the things that you have said make almost no sense to me. We're just on different parts of the baseball fan spectrum.
