YAGT: OMG I love guns

[RampantAndroid]

In a self-defense situation you probably wont. In fact merely flipping a manual safety can slow you down. I dont use them. I carry guns with heavy triggers and no manual safeties. With the proper training and practice they are still accurate. At the range its fine to pull the hammer on your first shot. But really if you are gonna carry one it makes sense to practice with that first shot being heavy.

Also, I dont know if its been mentioned yet, but revolvers can be found in double-action, single-action, and SA/DA.

I disagree - the way I hold my 1911, picking it up and flipping the safety off are one action, and the gun is off safe before I have my sights up (finger off trigger.)

Cocking the hammer though...bad idea. And that's why I don't use my revolvers for defense.

 

[exdeath]

Even that would create a paper trail for future confiscation.

Just have it indicated on a persons driver's license whether they are permitted to purchase a firearm.

That's the solution, if they are actually attempting to make it harder for felons to be sold guns, and it's not just their foot in the door to take away 2nd Amendment rights.

Still all a bunch of gun grabbing agenda. The Sandy Hook shooter and the mother were not felons, and did not buy their guns from a private seller. So why is everybody making a big deal out of this? Because they want to take SOMETHING and that's all that can right now?

 

[Pia]

I disagree - the way I hold my 1911, picking it up and flipping the safety off are one action, and the gun is off safe before I have my sights up (finger off trigger.)

That applies to pretty much anyone who has owned a gun and holster for a while, as long as they are standing still at a range. Doesn't mean external safeties are a good idea for a dedicated self-defense gun.

Have you ever tried, even in training, drawing while someone is trying to physically stop the draw by grabbing or wrapping the arm, pushing you, punching you? At least for me, that's a situation where my draws are very likely to end up with a poor grip. Without external safety, I could shoot. With external safety, I'd have to try to fix the grip so that my thumb will land on the safety and hope I'm still in the fight afterwards. Just competition shooting a timed stage where I move or am in an awkward position while drawing also has a non-zero chance of producing poor grips.

There are tons of other things that most people do not experience at the range but make fumbling more likely. Hands numb from cold, hands slippery from something, gloves on hands, accidentally banging the gun and/or hand against something, shooting with the weak hand. The possible problems are not limited to drawing either. For instance, I sometimes (very rarely) get a "malfunction" where my grip shifts in recoil and I accidentally engage the safety after a shot when some of these complicating factors are present. Fine when it just costs points in competition. But why take even that small risk with a dedicated self-defense gun?

The extra accuracy possible with a single action trigger simply isn't relevant. Even in IPSC Production pistol class, DAO Glocks are competitive against DA/SA guns like the CZ75 Shadow whose shooters are allowed to fire all shots beyond the first in single action. And the accuracy requirements there are many-fold over what could conceivably be needed for self-defense.

 

[gorobei]

Can you guys check my striker fired definition? I'm pretty sure that's correct. I've heard people saying that it's just like DA, but with a striker instead of a hammer. But then I always hear more experienced people saying that different striker fired firearms have different positions of the striker that it goes back to.

Within pistols and revolvers there are some complications. There are firing pins and strikers. both serve to impact the primer, but the mechanical function is different. In any mechanical firearm a mainspring is compressed to provide the power to set off the primer. Where the mainspring is located differentiates whether it is a striker or a firing pin.

Inertial firing pins:
On any rotating hammer pistol, the hammer is powered by a mainspring usually located in the grip section of the frame. The hammer falls onto an exposed bit of the firing pin on the end of the slide, transferring the energy.
Without the impact of the hammer the pin cant actually reach the primer because the length is designed to be just short of the breech block face.

In function it is like a cue ball hitting the objective ball in billiards. the hammer(pool cue) hits the firing pin(cue ball) impacting the primer(objective ball). The main requirement is that the firing pin have enough mass to retain enough momentum to hit the primer with enough force.

On some revolvers(older DA smith and colts and some SAA) the pin is part of the hammer and a separate mainspring presses a pawl or plunger that pushes on the hammer. (taurus revolvers use a transfer bar that functions to transfer the hammer impact to an inertial type firing pin).

In all cases the mainspring and its power come from a separate assembly from the firing pin.


Striker fired:
In a striker action, the striker(firing pin like part) is directly pushed forward by a coaxial mainspring located in the slide. The spring is part of the striker assembly, and not driven by a separate part like a hammer. A Mauser bolt action is a type of striker. The assembly must be cocked in order for the gun to fire.

The amount of pre-tensioning or half cocking can vary. Some can be 100% or 50 or 33 or 75. Striker fired pistol actions have been around for a century or so, many older pocket pistols (.22, .25, .32) used strikers because it allowed them to keep the grip length short since a separate mainspring in the grip wasnt required. I believe the kahr and a few other rarer striker types have 0 or near 0 pre-tension and the trigger provides most of the cocking(however racking the action is still required to reset the sear).


While the trigger experience of a striker may be similar to a DA trigger cocking, it is only the mainspring mechanism that defines whether it is striker fired or not.

Almost all modern pistols will have some take up in the trigger(even in SA) in order to deactivate the firing pin interupt safety, but you arent cocking the mainspring. the shooter is still pulling the trigger to tension something before the sear trip, but is that cocking? No. So how the trigger is experienced by the shooter is not how it is categorized.

 

[Kelvrick]

That applies to pretty much anyone who has owned a gun and holster for a while, as long as they are standing still at a range. Doesn't mean external safeties are a good idea for a dedicated self-defense gun.

Have you ever tried, even in training, drawing while someone is trying to physically stop the draw by grabbing or wrapping the arm, pushing you, punching you? At least for me, that's a situation where my draws are very likely to end up with a poor grip. Without external safety, I could shoot. With external safety, I'd have to try to fix the grip so that my thumb will land on the safety and hope I'm still in the fight afterwards. Just competition shooting a timed stage where I move or am in an awkward position while drawing also has a non-zero chance of producing poor grips.

There are tons of other things that most people do not experience at the range but make fumbling more likely. Hands numb from cold, hands slippery from something, gloves on hands, accidentally banging the gun and/or hand against something, shooting with the weak hand. The possible problems are not limited to drawing either. For instance, I sometimes (very rarely) get a "malfunction" where my grip shifts in recoil and I accidentally engage the safety after a shot when some of these complicating factors are present. Fine when it just costs points in competition. But why take even that small risk with a dedicated self-defense gun?

The extra accuracy possible with a single action trigger simply isn't relevant. Even in IPSC Production pistol class, DAO Glocks are competitive against DA/SA guns like the CZ75 Shadow whose shooters are allowed to fire all shots beyond the first in single action. And the accuracy requirements there are many-fold over what could conceivably be needed for self-defense.

While I agree with you (all of my carry weapons are dao, no external safety weapons), the options are there for the people who want them. When I shoot my 1911, my grip changed so that then I drew, the thumb naturally rested on top of the safety and it would get flicked down when it rotated after it left the holster. That is also how to hold a 1911 (dominant thumb riding on safety). I'll admit, I have lost time in competition before when my grip shifted just enough off of the 1911 to where the grip safety engaged and I couldn't shoot so I had to readjust my grip.

The only rule in the end is to train with what you use.

 

[BladeVenom]

Doesn't mean external safeties are a good idea for a dedicated self-defense gun.

The US military thinks it is.

Have you ever tried, even in training, drawing while someone is trying to physically stop the draw by grabbing or wrapping the arm, pushing you, punching you? At least for me, that's a situation where my draws are very likely to end up with a poor grip. Without external safety, I could shoot...

...yourself in the leg.

There are tons of other things that most people do not experience at the range but make fumbling more likely. Hands numb from cold, hands slippery from something, gloves on hands, accidentally banging the gun and/or hand against something, shooting with the weak hand.

Which are all good reasons to have an external safety, so you don't shoot yourself fumbling with your handgun.

But why take even that small risk with a dedicated self-defense gun?

Why take the risk of shooting yourself, when you could just have an external safety on your gun.

When the Washington DC police switched to the Glock, in the next decade they had 120 accidental discharges, 19 officers seriously wounded themselves, 9 civilians accidentally wounded with one dead.

So there are some merits to having an external safety.

 

[moonbogg]

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

 

[gorobei]

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

at those prices you might as well start hand loading.

 

[olds]

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

That must have been a while back. Last summer I was paying $150 for 500.
They'd only let you buy 500 at a time but the cashier would let me buy 500, go put them in the car then come back in and buy 500 more.

 

[boomhower]

My opinion on safeties: If you follow the basic rules and train they aren't needed. I have one handgun with a safety and that's because it's the only one in that size on the market. My wife's carry gun does not have a safety either. She knows the rules and also trains with her gun. If your not willing to put in the work to know what your doing then have a safety. I've seen enough vids of folks/cops getting killed because finite motor controls go out the window under stress.

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

Get a .22 conversion or wait for it to get back to normalness. I'll stop shooting before I pay $1/round for FMJ .223. $250 has been a couple of years. $300-$350 has been the average since the 08 surge and just before this last grab. I've got a few backorders out for $290/900 on clips and $350/1000 boxed. I just won't pay more than .40/round for brass FMJ.

 

[Pia]

The US military thinks it is.

The criteria for an army sidearm are not the same as for a civilian concealed carry gun. Also, I don't know what the SOP for its use is in the US military, but the 92FS is a DA/SA gun basically designed to be carried uncocked and un-safetied (the safety decocks the gun and is in an unergonomic location to boot, so why would you leave the safety on?).

Police nearly everywhere has arrived to the conclusion that guns without external safeties are the right choice for work.

...yourself in the leg.

?

Which are all good reasons to have an external safety, so you don't shoot yourself fumbling with your handgun.

The kind of fumbling I was referring to was not of the variety where your finger goes on the trigger, but the kind where you can't immediately establish perfect grip.

When the Washington DC police switched to the Glock, in the next decade they had 120 accidental discharges, 19 officers seriously wounded themselves, 9 civilians accidentally wounded with one dead.

What are those numbers supposed to prove by themselves? If you want to make some kind of point, show numbers before and after the switch, normalized by officer and/or case count.

But I'll spare you the trouble. There was nothing wrong with the guns, everything wrong with the criminally negligent lack of training and supervision, and some good old-fashioned individual stupidity to top it off. How do you expect new trainees with as little as 3 days of firearms training to be safe with any kind of gun? How do you expect morons to be safe with any kind of gun?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4full.htm
---
Three months after D.C. police started carrying Glocks, the department began a crash program to hire 1,500 officers in 18 months. ... "We had taken firearms training up to eight days. We were in the process of making it two weeks. After 1989, [with] the big flood of recruits . . . firearms went to five days, maybe three in some cases." ... Of 93 accidental discharges studied by The Post where information about the officers' academy classes was available, 49 involved officers from the Classes of 1989 and 1990.
---
In October 1990, Officer Edward Wise fired accidentally and grazed a man's head during an undercover drug operation at a Southeast Washington housing complex ... Sabrina Whittle, who was Wise's partner, said in a recent interview that she and her partner were not taught to keep their fingers off the triggers of their Glocks unless they intended to fire.
---
In January 1994, homicide detective Jeffrey Mayberry shot Officer James Dukes in the stomach at police headquarters. ... Dukes said in a recent interview, "He was playing with the weapon. This was the second time I had told [Mayberry] during that tour of duty not to point the weapon at me." A lawyer for Dukes later said that Mayberry had been trying out a laser sight on his Glock when the gun went off.
---
By 1997, the safety issue had turned some members of the D.C. police union against the Glock, according to Robertson, the former union official. Several officials wanted to switch to the Sig Sauer, a more expensive gun with a heavier trigger pull.

"Several kids were killed here when they picked up their fathers' guns," Robertson said in an interview. "A 2-year-old can pick up the Glock and kill someone. It doesn't take much to fire the weapon."

 

[irishScott]

Ah, the safety debate.

For my part, I'm a 1911 fanboy. Manual safeties are fine so long as I get a nice, light trigger in return. I've practiced to the point where the thumb swipe is part of my draw (even when I draw non-1911s I instinctivly swipe where the safety would be) so I think I'm good.

That said, I don't really take sides on this. Both manual and integrated safeties are time-proven systems at this point and are equally deadly in the right hands. Dealing with a manual safety does take more training to be reliable, and I wouldn't reccomend a gun with one to an inexperienced shooter or someone who wasn't going to train.

For anyone who would speculate that there's some significant chance that I'll forget in the heat of the moment, 11 rounds of .45 Gold Dots will be waiting for you should you desire to test that theory.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[irishScott]

Is it true that .45 is mostly only popular in the US?

I'd say it's definitely the most popular here, but plenty of foreign gun-makers (Sig, H&K, RIA, ATI/Armscor, Glock etc) make guns chambered in the .45. Europeans have always favored smaller pistol calibers for some reason.

Honestly I don't know what there is to not like about the .45. As time and combat-proven a round as you can get. Sure you take a hit on ammo capacity and an extra dime or two/round on ammo, but aside from 10mm there isn't a common semi-auto pistol round that can touch it.

There's very few social problems an average civilian might face that 11 rounds of .45 can't solve.

 

[TallBill]

Not a chance that 45 is the most popular here, unless you mean that its more popular here than anywhere else.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Ah, the safety debate.

For my part, I'm a 1911 fanboy. Manual safeties are fine so long as I get a nice, light trigger in return. I've practiced to the point where the thumb swipe is part of my draw (even when I draw non-1911s I instinctivly swipe where the safety would be) so I think I'm good.

That said, I don't really take sides on this. Both manual and integrated safeties are time-proven systems at this point and are equally deadly in the right hands. Dealing with a manual safety does take more training to be reliable, and I wouldn't reccomend a gun with one to an inexperienced shooter or someone who wasn't going to train.

For anyone who would speculate that there's some significant chance that I'll forget in the heat of the moment, 11 rounds of .45 Gold Dots will be waiting for you should you desire to test that theory.

I have a Stoeger Cougar (Beretta Cougar) and I personally like having the safety as both a safety and decocker switch. It essentially guarantees that it is impossible to accidentally discharge since the hammer is physically disconnected from the firing pin. You'd have to have one hell of a jolt to get the firing pin to fire a round.

That being said, the having DA on the first pull does take a bit of extra effort. I purchased my pistol primarily for target shooting, so I usually manually cock the hammer so I have an SA pull.

God forbid I ever needed to use it for self defense..I'd like to think that I would pull the trigger hard enough for it to not matter (though that first shot would probably be less accurate than the rest).

 

[irishScott]

Not a chance that 45 is the most popular here, unless you mean that its more popular here than anywhere else.

That would be what I mean.

 

[ManBearPig]

deleted

 

[TallBill]

Lol k

 

[shortylickens]

The manual safety has nothing to do with you getting a light trigger. Thats based on whether its DA, SA, or some odd combination, like Glocks which are half-cocked but still considered DAO.

Theoretically you could design a safety-free gun with a 1 pound trigger, but I've never seen such a thing. Even worse would be if you could not manually cock or decock it.

Actually I cant recall ever seeing a safety-free gun with a manual decock either, never mind having your choice of light or heavy trigger.

 

[BlitzPuppet]

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

It's the i love you gun tax that is associated with that round :awe:

 

[adairusmc]

Well, it looks like i'll have to buy .223 ammo from gunbroker.com. God, this sucks. From what I have read 1000 rounds used to be available for like $250, now a damn 1000 round pack cost just about $1000!

I know someone that has bulk lake city for .40 cents a round, but you have to buy $5,000 worth at a time.

Has 14 of these in stock right now -

Not willing to ship them though. 12,500 rounds each.

 

[corwin]

That must have been a while back. Last summer I was paying $150 for 500.
They'd only let you buy 500 at a time but the cashier would let me buy 500, go put them in the car then come back in and buy 500 more.

That depends on what you were buying, last summer/early fall I was still getting cases of Wolf for $225, I'd expect prices on them to be higher now but nobody seems to even have any to sell...you would think the Ruskies would be pumping out those shells right now to take advantage of the buying frenzy over here, I wonder if their import is being hampered somehow...

 

[exdeath]

Can always buy ammo later. You should be going after magazines right now

420 rd XM855 ammo cans will be back to $180 in a few months.

 

[corwin]

Can always buy ammo later. You should be going after magazines right now

420 rd XM855 ammo cans will be back to $180 in a few months.

moonbogg didn't get an AR so no mags needed, just ammo

For the rest of us I know I ain't spending $50 a pop for a mag when they'll be back down to normal in less than a year, just like ammo