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YACT: Stalling engine, UPDATED 5/23

A

archcommus

Diamond Member
I have a 92 Sable that stalls frequently the first time it's driven for the day. Usually like four or five times before it's okay for the rest of that day. It also idles a bit rough sometimes. My mother thinks that dry gas will help it since it helped one of her old cars in the past, but I'm thinking that was in the winter and that dry gas may only help prevent stalling in lower temperatures. I'm getting it inspected Monday so if something mechanical needs done it can be, but should I try dry gas before then or would that be a waste of a couple bucks?

Thanks.

Update 4/30: Today I got inspection, oil change, and a new fuel filter done. Other than that he said he had "no idea" what could've been causing it to stall. So it was fine coming home, but of course I haven't let it sit overnight yet. Should I try a bottle of fuel injector cleaner if it still does it? Then if it persists I'll just take it to another shop and tell them just to check that out.

Update 5/7: Okay, well the problem isn't gone completely, but it seems to stall less, like only once or twice at the beginning of the day. Today I'm going to put fuel injector cleaner in and a new air filter. Sound good?

Also, today, it stalled on me at a stop sign with other cars behind me and I sort of panicked and put it into park without the brake on while still rolling forward slightly. This made it make a slight grinding/clicking sound but it went into park fine and back into drive fine after I started it again. What happened inside the transmission then to make that sound, and is this okay? Do you think this could've hurt something? I believe it's the second time I've done it.

Update 5/23: Well it's become more frequent. This morning I had to restart it 5 times after the initial time before it wouldn't stall anymore. I'm not sure if this information helps at all, but it seems to take a certain combination of starting and driving it before it won't stall. Like, doing what Zen mentioned didn't seem to make much difference. If I stay in my parked spot and keep restarting it it'll keep stalling. If I zoom off the second I start it the first time, and don't stop for a mile, it will stall as soon as I do stop. It takes a certain combination of starting it at least a few to a handful of times, and also driving it at least a half mile to a mile, before it'll start idling without stalling.

ANY idea what this could be? I was really trying to just deal with this since it might be the last summer I drive the car and since rust is starting to own it, but 5 restarts in one morning is getting pretty crazy.

Also my brake light started coming on, and I don't know why. Guess I should check the fluid.
 
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
What the heck is "dry gas?"
Click to expand...

Wiki: Dry gas is an ethanol-based additive used in automobiles to prevent any water in the fuel from freezing, or to restore combustive power to gasoline spoiled by water. It is a liquid that is added in to the fuel tank, that absorbs the water and keeps it in solution.
 
Just a thought archcommus, but when was the last time you had the fuel filter changed?
 
I assume the car is using electronic fuel injection? are you getting any check engine lights? Do you get a bouncing idle? Does it idle rough at certain times(cold/hot) or all the time? What is your idle speed?

edit: I think he's referring to something called sta-bil. I wouldn't think sta-bil would hurt... it's worth a try. If you have fresh gas though, sta-bil shouldn't help. I'd think it to be something else.
 
Zim: Probably a long time ago. There are so many things that probably *could* be replaced/refreshed that would help a car of this age, that it's really hard to keep track and try to stay on top of all of them, let alone justifying the cost of all of them when it's so uncertain what will make a difference and what won't. I get my annual inspections done, oil changes every 6 months, and then whatever repairs/replacements my mechanic recommends. It could very easily have been years ago. But I am bringing it for inspection Monday, so this is something I can request.

ed21x: What do you do for that?

Jules: Is that pricey? Should I do this for certain or maybe ask my mechanic to judge?

nonameo: Yes it is direct fuel injection. The check engine light comes on intermittently but has come on incorrectly for years, it's not an accurate indication of anything. The rough idling doesn't seem to be dependent on temperature at all. Over the summer it would idle high, like around 1000 RPM, now it doesn't seem to do that anymore, but sometimes it idles low, like around 500. After being driven for awhile though it can sometimes attain a nice 750 RPM idle.

I put Sta-bil in before letting it sit unused for 8 months while I was at college, to help preserve the fuel in the tank. That is different stuff from the "dry gas" I'm talking about. I forget the formal name of it, but the guy at the full service station my mother goes to put it in her old Pontiac when it was stallilng, and it eliminated the problem completely.

Thanks very much for the assistance! Very appreciated.
 
carbon buildup in the piston can cause them to not fire smoothly, and can also cloud the spark plugs and fuel injectors, causing the engine to stall. The only way to fix it is to open up the engine and clean it out. While you're at it, might as well get the fuel injectors clean like Jules said. 🙂
 
My guess is that the anti drain-back valve in the fuel system is leaky and that overnight the pressure in the fuel rail leaks down. Then the first time in the morning when the car is started there is low fuel pressure. Try leaving the key in the "run" position without starting the car for 30-60 seconds in the morning before you start the engine. If it starts fine then, you'll know that the problem is that it's losing pressure in the fuel system and isn't pumping back up fast enough (combination of a bad anti drain-back valve and a clogged fuel filter).

Dry gas will only help to remove water from the gas that is in the tank when you treat it. If the car has been stalling for more than one tank of gasoline, dry gas won't help.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: ed21x
carbon buildup in the piston can cause them to not fire smoothly, and can also cloud the spark plugs and fuel injectors, causing the engine to stall. The only way to fix it is to open up the engine and clean it out. While you're at it, might as well get the fuel injectors clean like Jules said. 🙂
Click to expand...
If those were the problems, then it would stall all the time, not just in the beginning of the day. They would be constant, not only on the first start of the day.

ZV
 
Thanks, both of you. Glad to hear you say that, ZV, as any repairs requiring dismantling of the engine would probably be unrealistic to do. To clarify about when it stalls, it's not just the first time I start it, but about the first four or fives times I start it. Even then, if it just sits there between starts, it probably won't stop stalling at all. I have to let it run for a bit and actually drive it, dealing with the stalls, before it stops happening. Once I get to that point it's usually fine for the rest of the day, with the exception of still idling rough/low. So your explanation makes sense. I will replace the fuel filter. What about this anti drain-back valve? Would that be costly?
 
A pressure check of the fuel pump might be a good idea, Dry gas did help me once but like
Zenmervolt said this is happening for awhile so more likely it involves the fuel delivery system
itself (pump, regulator, valve, filter) good luck and let us know how you make out..
 
Originally posted by: holden j caufield
I'd check the easiest thing first. Adjust the idle screw and see if it helps.
Click to expand...
It's a '92 Sable, it doesen't have a carburetor. 😉

Oh, maybe you meant the idle speed screw.. In which case that would be useless, other than perhaps giving you clues if upping the idle causes the stalling to stop. But I don't think it will in this case.

I think ZV is on the ball, as usual.
 
You could have fouled or poorly gapped plugs. Does it use oil? I have to clean or replace my plugs every 4-6 months. They are easy to replace on my Tercel, but maybe not as easy on your car. Yes, plugs are replaced in a tuneup, but just doing the plugs might fix the problem for a lot less money, or no money if you can clean and regap them. If messing with your plugs seems intimidating, try a bottle of brand-name fuel system treatment and/or higher octane gas, perhaps from somewhere different than you usually get gas. If you haven't pulled your plugs before, be sure you read up on it before you try it. A spark plug wrench can be MUCH easier than a socket, but be sure you have the right size for your plugs.
 
Originally posted by: archcommus
Zim: Probably a long time ago. There are so many things that probably *could* be replaced/refreshed that would help a car of this age, that it's really hard to keep track and try to stay on top of all of them, let alone justifying the cost of all of them when it's so uncertain what will make a difference and what won't. I get my annual inspections done, oil changes every 6 months, and then whatever repairs/replacements my mechanic recommends. It could very easily have been years ago. But I am bringing it for inspection Monday, so this is something I can request.

ed21x: What do you do for that?

Jules: Is that pricey? Should I do this for certain or maybe ask my mechanic to judge?

nonameo: Yes it is direct fuel injection. The check engine light comes on intermittently but has come on incorrectly for years, it's not an accurate indication of anything. The rough idling doesn't seem to be dependent on temperature at all. Over the summer it would idle high, like around 1000 RPM, now it doesn't seem to do that anymore, but sometimes it idles low, like around 500. After being driven for awhile though it can sometimes attain a nice 750 RPM idle.

I put Sta-bil in before letting it sit unused for 8 months while I was at college, to help preserve the fuel in the tank. That is different stuff from the "dry gas" I'm talking about. I forget the formal name of it, but the guy at the full service station my mother goes to put it in her old Pontiac when it was stallilng, and it eliminated the problem completely.

Thanks very much for the assistance! Very appreciated.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The car may run fine with the light on, but the light will not come on unless something is broken. It might be getting a bad signal from a sensor somewhere that will not directly affect the function of the engine. If the light had come on once and gone away forever it might have been nothing, but the fact that something in the car keeps triggering it points to something.

That said, a 92 Sable is probably worth 250 dollars - I used to drive a 91, and I couldn't even give it away when the transmission stopped working over 10 mph. What you can do that could help a rough running engine is give it a tune up. Change the filters. Cheap job, buy the filters and borrow some wrenches. Change the spark plugs. Change the spark plug wires - they go bad over time and cause rough running, among other things.

You say that it only scews with you whne you first drive it every day, so when the engine is cold. Could be bad oil sludging up - when was the last time you've changed it? Could also be a temperature sensor somewhere is stuck. If the computer thinks the engine is at normal temperature when you've just started it you'll have a rough idle and maybe stalling.
 
It couldn't be "bad oil sludging up". Where do you people come up with this stuff? :laugh:
 
Originally posted by: mobobuff
I say it's a dying battery.

The rough idles are just an indicator of a separate issue.
Click to expand...
Again, that would cause it to stall all the time not just on the first start in the morning.

To the OP: If the fuel filter is clogged and you're getting low pressure from the pump because of it, then the leaky valve will be exacerbated (sp?). Depending on the car, this valve may be on the fuel rail or somewhere else in the return line. I'm not sure where it is for the Sable/Taurus. A good fuel pump with a fresh filter should be able to re-pressurise the system quickly though, so while it may be inconvenient you can sometimes get away with not changing that part and just living with it leaking down.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: angminas
You could have fouled or poorly gapped plugs. Does it use oil? I have to clean or replace my plugs every 4-6 months. They are easy to replace on my Tercel, but maybe not as easy on your car. Yes, plugs are replaced in a tuneup, but just doing the plugs might fix the problem for a lot less money, or no money if you can clean and regap them. If messing with your plugs seems intimidating, try a bottle of brand-name fuel system treatment and/or higher octane gas, perhaps from somewhere different than you usually get gas. If you haven't pulled your plugs before, be sure you read up on it before you try it. A spark plug wrench can be MUCH easier than a socket, but be sure you have the right size for your plugs.
Click to expand...
Again, bad plugs would cause problems that were constant, not problems that occur only on initial start-up. Why is everyone ignoring the fact that the car runs fine on all subsequent starts?

ZV
 
Thanks everyone, and ZV. Yeah it's defintely not a battery issue, I just replaced it a year ago. It didn't start when I first came home from school, but that was because it hadn't been run for more than a minute or so for over a month. I jumped it with my father's car and then it started fine. It burns a little bit of oil, not much, maybe like a quart between changes, but again as ZV said that probably isn't related. I'm going to let my mechanic know about the stalling when I bring it for inspection and request at the very least a new fuel filter, and I will report back.
 
Brake fluid!
Yes, pour a small bottle of brake fluid in your gas tank just before you park it for the night (You want it to slosh around enough to mix with the gas).
The brake fluid will react with the rubber impellers on the fuel pump,causing them to swell slightly, therefore improving your fuel pressure.
It's just a thought, it has worked for me a few times.
Besides, for $1.25, at the very least you could rule out (or confirm) a bad fuel pump.
And besides, it will help slightly to clean your pistons & valves.
 
Originally posted by: jupiter57
Brake fluid!
Yes, pour a small bottle of brake fluid in your gas tank just before you park it for the night (You want it to slosh around enough to mix with the gas).
The brake fluid will react with the rubber impellers on the fuel pump,causing them to swell slightly, therefore improving your fuel pressure.
It's just a thought, it has worked for me a few times.
Besides, for $1.25, at the very least you could rule out (or confirm) a bad fuel pump.
And besides, it will help slightly to clean your pistons & valves.
Click to expand...
...

I'm going to refrain from being mean.

OP, whatever you do, please don't do something stupid like pour an extremely corrosive fluid into your gas tank. 😛
 
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