YACT: Solenoid or Starter

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Dead3ye

Originally posted by: Ornery
How big is the spark from the battery terminal, when it's disconnected? Connect a 12V lightbulb in series between the battery terminal and the connector and see how bright it is. Shouldn't even light up, but if it does, there's something shorted or powered on.

Doesn't anybody use a current meter anymore?

You mean an ammeter? Any good multi-meter will have an ammeter function.

ZV

 

[Ornery]

If he's using an analog VOM, it's not likely to handle any serious amp readings. My digital VOM can only handle milliamps, and I don't own an ammeter myself.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Originally posted by: Ornery
If he's using an analog VOM, it's not likely to handle any serious amp readings. My digital VOM can only handle milliamps, and I don't own an ammeter myself.

i dont either, aside from the one on my multimeter. what would be the point of an ammeter in this instance? i dont see how it could be useful, especially at the levels a starter is going to draw.

i would do what ornery said with the lightbulb in series with the starter connection. that is a smart way to check for a short.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Well i am about to go out and check with the old multi-meter.

However, i think this might have something to do with Cold weather. This morning, before the cold front hit, it work just fine. Then after i got out of school, after the temp dropped 22F i had problems. I turned the key and the engine started turning as i held it there and just slowed down until nothing. So i continued to turn the key and get the clicking noise and dashboard lights. After about 30secs of turning the key it gradually worked up enough oomph to start.

Anyone have any thoughts. I made sure there was plenty of Anti-Freeze in there and the temp was only 50F so shouldn't make a difference. Ill check with a multi-meter now. But is this problem not weird?

-Kevin

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: goodoptics
Have you checked condition of the battery?

Edit What kind of '92 pick up truck?

Toyota 4x4

As for the battery, it is new. What would you like me to check? THe contacts are fine, i just cleaned them if you are referring to that.

-Kevin

Could be the alternator if the battery is low (check the wattage) or the solenoid.

But my guess is the starter as well because it seems like the starter gets juice. Those things tend to go bad after heavy use after 2-3 years anyways.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Alright forgive my rudimentary knowledge of cars but i haven't used this multi-meter before. All i do is put the two multi-meter contacts between the contacts of the wires and the batter on the car correct.

Next can someone please tell me where i plug the cables in on the multi-meter and what setting i select. Here is a pic of the multi-meter. I feel like such an idiot asking for something so basic, but i dont want any chance of blowing the multi meter.

Am i right in my assumption of turning the dial to "Bat Check" and plugging the red positive cable into the V [ohm] A button and the negative into the COM slot or should i plug it into the BAT connection?



-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

Set it to 50 DC Voltage and connect black probe to negative, and red probe to positive. Write down the reading. Then, start the car, the reading should climb 2 volts higher. If not, juice isn't getting from the alternator to the battery.

That's probably all moot, because I'm betting something is drawing significant power when the car is turned off.

 

[natto fire]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Alright forgive my rudimentary knowledge of cars but i haven't used this multi-meter before. All i do is put the two multi-meter contacts between the contacts of the wires and the batter on the car correct.

Next can someone please tell me where i plug the cables in on the multi-meter and what setting i select. Here is a pic of the multi-meter. I feel like such an idiot asking for something so basic, but i dont want any chance of blowing the multi meter.

Am i right in my assumption of turning the dial to "Bat Check" and plugging the red positive cable into the V [ohm] A button and the negative into the COM slot or should i plug it into the BAT connection?



-Kevin

I think the Bat. Check is for more common 1.5v household batteries. Use the DC 50V selection, and put the wires in the plugs you mentioned the first time. Red goes on the positive terminal of the battery, Black can go on the negative terminal or any non-painted metallic part of the car.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ornery
Set it to DC voltage and connect black probe to negative, and red probe to positive. Write down the reading. Then, start the car, the reading should climb 2 volts higher. If not, juice isn't getting from the alternator to the battery.

That's probably all moot, because I'm betting something is drawing significant power when the car is turned off.

What DV setting? .25 (Im thinking no) 2.5, 10, 50, 250 & 1000?

Also if i touch the contacts and the reading is up around 16 with the key on the on position (without the engine started) then we know that there is a short or something? With the key on it should be around 13-14V right? ~15-16V with the engine on?

Thanks!
-Kevin

 

[FrustratedUser]

Another common problem is a bad ground connection. Check the voltage between the negative terminal on the battery and the engine block / alternator case when you start the car. It should be as close to 0 volts as possible.

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

What DV setting? .25 (Im thinking no) 2.5, 10, 50, 250 & 1000?

Also if i touch the contacts and the reading is up around 16 with the key on the on position (without the engine started) then we know that there is a short or something? With the key on it should be around 13-14V right? ~15-16V with the engine on?

Thanks!
-Kevin

The 50 Volt range. Don't bother with the key, just check at the battery terminals with the car off, then on. That's it. Unless you can "Zero" that meter, don't worry what the actual voltage says. (BTW, it's zeroed using that screw at the pivot point.)

 

[CaptnKirk]

You replaced the battery, right ?

Did you clean the cables where they make contact - inside of the post terminals to remove corrosion,
there is a little brush made to do that.
How about the cable end that grounds to the chassis and the one that hooks to the starter at the solenoid ?
They could be loose - might need to be tightened.
Chassis grounds can give really hideous secondary failures of equipment -
radios, digital electronis, temperature gauges, etc.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Ok i uploaded pics:

F0032 has the negative grounded on the on the battery's negative side. The key is in the "on" position.

F0039 has the negative grounded on the engine block. The entire car is on with the engine running.

F0040 has the negative grounded on the engine block just after the engine has been shut off, but the car is still on.

**I should note that it was pretty hard to get a good read. I had to really kind of poke around the contact to get a good solid consistent read. Yes i used the special brush to clean them (Like i wine bottle opener, only with wire bristles in the center).

***During all of these test the Heating/AC is off, and the Radio is off. The door is open so the one interior cabin light is on.

If you need any other tests run please post. Ill be back in ~10 mins, have to run out real quick.

-Kevin

 

[FrustratedUser]

WTF mate?

If your instrument is on teh 50V range you have 20V coming from the battery!?

 

[Dead3ye]

Nah, that can't be right. 23 volts is way to high. Does the mutlimeter read zero when nothing is connected? If not, zero it with the screw on the front. But it does look like the alternator is working because your difference between off and running is 3 volts.

Somehow you need to check if there is something using a bunch of juice while the ignition is off. You need an ammeter or a DMM with the ability to take current measurements. The only problem with that is most can't read real high current. I have one for work that reads up to 2 amps, but they are expensive.

You can do the 12 volt light bulb trick like Ornery suggested. It shouldn't light up are be very dim if it does. You have to take the positive cable off of the battery and put the light bulb (or ammeter) in series with the cable and the battery.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
WTF mate?

If your instrument is on teh 50V range you have 20V coming from the battery!?

I dunno? They told me to switch it to the 50V range and thats what i did.

You can do the 12 volt light bulb trick like Ornery suggested. It shouldn't light up are be very dim if it does. You have to take the positive cable off of the battery and put the light bulb (or ammeter) in series with the cable and the battery.

Ok stupid question. How would the lightbulb have any chance of doing anything if the car is off? I take the cable and put the battery in between the contact and the cable, but why would it light up if it were broken?

Doesn't that multi-meter have an ammeter function?

-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

...why would it light up if it were broken?

Don't use a "broken bulb".

It would light if enough current passed through it. Enough current to light the bulb, would be enough current to drain the battery. An example would be leaving the dome light on over night.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Don't use a "broken bulb".

Lol you misunderstand my question You answered it, i meant why would the bulb light up if the battery was the problem or if the alternator was the problem. By saying broken i was just generalizing and referring to the alternator, solenoid, and battery.

-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

In this case, you're not looking for something "broken", you're looking for proof that something is drawing significant current while the car is off. Maybe a light bulb in the glovebox, maybe a transformer for a video game or cell phone charger. Could be a short, or relay stuck on...

 

[Gamingphreek]

Checking the fuse box shouldn't yeild any results. But why wouldn't it have blown a fuse. If it is drawing too much current to a component doesn't that blow the fuse. Or is it not quite enough to do that, just enough to cause problems?

Alright, ill try the lightbulb tomorrow after school and before work. Hopefully it will yeild some sort of result.

-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

1. Who said anything about a fuse?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ornery

1. Who said anything about a fuse?

Lol no, im just being an idiot. YOu said it might be getting to much current. Wouldn't that blow a fuse if too much current was flowing through a point? Or am i just stupid, and have no clue what i am talking about (probably this one )

-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

In today's cars, there are ALWAYS items drawing current from your car's battery, even when the car is off. The radio, which holds information, such as station presets and EQ adjustments. The clock and computer draw a little, but this current isn't enough to drain a battery over a month, let alone overnight. If you were to leave the dome light, trunk light or some other similar device on overnight, your car would exhibit the symptoms you described in this post:

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

I did however forget to mention something that might squelch the idea of the battery. This happens after the car has been off for a while (in particular overnight). After i get the car started that first time the next times it starts right up without any problems (all but once).

-Kevin

 

[Gamingphreek]

Cold weather shouldn't have any affect on anything electrical then should it? Like i said, it started up in the morning, then after the temp dropped 22F to ~50 it had trouble. Could that mean that i have some insulation or something missing? Or is it just a coincidence?

-Kevin

 

[Ornery]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Ornery

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

This insane. Now i have to drive over there, and get into a yelling match with that manager.

I take it your car is working?

Yep .... it turned out the starter was bad. Now it starts just fine... thanks for the help btw!

Man, I was certain it was a light being left on or something!