YACT: Cops shoot innocent ex-marine in AZ (huffington)

[BeauJangles]

Brigandier, I agree.

These paramilitary tactics are getting in the way of actual police work and the pendulum has swung too far to the side of 'officer safety.' There needs to be a balance between protecting officers and protecting the suspects they are trying to apprehend or the property they are trying to search.

I understand that no-knock warrants have their role, especially when the suspects can destroy evidence or prepare defenses against police, but it pains me to see that in a situation like this simpler tactics would have resulted in a less stressful situation and likely no confrontation nor any shooting.

 

[fire400]

The marijuana charge is irrelevant, the man pulled an assault rifle on the police, and allegedly opened fire. The cops had a warrant too. Means he should have sat down, asked for legal counsel, and closed his mouth while the police conducted their legal search. Pull a gun on the cops, expect them to defend themselves.

http://www.ktar.com/?sid=1412410&nid=6

well... it's the news. they let him bleed to death to prevent him from coming back to life and fighting a case.

i'm sure there is much more to the story, but we may never know the complete story.

 

[JSt0rm]

Who do Sheriff's departments report to?


The problem is we're complaining to the very people that perpetuate the problem. It will take a major act from the citizens to change this, unfortunately.

True but you can tell them to rot in hell.

 

[dabuddha]

You know folks, it's a proven fact that Hal90000eckarbo is a troll. No disputing that. And you know that feeding a troll only makes it stronger. So I suggest just adding him to your ignore list so you can't see his ignorant posts and after awhile, he'll get bored and maybe stop posting or at least stop being trollish.

 

[TechBoyJK]

I've no interest in inciting an emotional response from anyone.

Oh, so you really just incredibly fucking stupid. A marine was murdered by police for defending his home and you want to spin it. Did you read the article? Or did you just come in here with guns blazing like these stupid cops?

He's a marine, he did what he was trained to do. All witnesses contradict the police who claim they made their presence known. Even then, the guy's wife's family recently had several members murdered in a home invasion.

 

[OCGuy]

You know folks, it's a proven fact that Hal90000eckarbo is a troll. No disputing that. And you know that feeding a troll only makes it stronger. So I suggest just adding him to your ignore list so you can't see his ignorant posts and after awhile, he'll get bored and maybe stop posting or at least stop being trollish.

^^^

 

[hanoverphist]

Being bipolar doesn't affect your cognition and reasoning. We've had this conversation before.

i have a couple very close friends that are very bipolar. you can deny it all you want, but whether your reasoning is sound or not isnt really the problem. sometimes bipolar people do what they know is the wrong thing because it suits them at that given moment. one of my friends has this particular quirk to his personality, and sometimes he has lost friends over stupid shit he knew he shouldnt have done.

I've never posted anything that would make a reasonable person think I'm retarded.

ive seen some pretty retarded views about gun ownership/ responsibility come out of your posts. and i dont really have any problem with you overall.

 

[Zargon]

The marijuana charge is irrelevant, the man pulled an assault rifle on the police, and allegedly opened fire. The cops had a warrant too. Means he should have sat down, asked for legal counsel, and closed his mouth while the police conducted their legal search. Pull a gun on the cops, expect them to defend themselves.

http://www.ktar.com/?sid=1412410&nid=6

The Pima County Sheriff's Department initially claimed (PDF) Guerena fired his weapon at the SWAT team. They now acknowledge that not only did he not fire, the safety on his gun was still activated when he was killed. Guerena had no prior criminal record, and the police found nothing illegal in his home. After ushering out his wife and son, the police refused to allow paramedics to access Guerena for more than hour, leaving the young father to bleed to death, alone, in his own home.

some people have seeming missed this important detail.

 

[HumblePie]

Being bipolar doesn't affect your cognition and reasoning.

I know you were a troll and are pretty dumb most of the time, but this one post shows how dumb you really are. Being bi-polar does IN FACT affect your cognitive and reasoning skills. It does so because it allows your brain to become chemically unbalanced to the point you act and think on emotions that shouldn't exist in the first place. Either they are manic or depressive in nature. I know because I've been around a lot of bi-polar people and had a girl friend for a few years I was practically living with who was bi-polar. She was smart, of that there was no doubt. Yet she did some of the stupidest things because of her condition that no reasonable person would do.

The fact is, bi-polar people tend to commit suicide more often than people without a mental condition. Committing suicide is not a reasonable thing for anyone to do unless they are terminally ill and in a lot of suffering. Having a massive depressive spell is not being terminally ill.

Actually, most people that are highly bi-polar will do things way out of character when they are not on proper medication also proves how much the condition affects their reasoning skills. I've known people on manic highs do some crazy crap like go off and buy a car or three in a day just because it makes them feel good, despite the debt it incurs them. And the moment they slip into a depressive mode they pawn everything they have and go into bankruptcy. Actually my aunt has done this several times and it's damn annoying she has to live off the charity of my parents for the most part because of how badly she gets affected when her condition goes into over drive into either manic or depressive state.

So yes, you are mostly regarded a moronic troll around here. Not that it matters to me as I typically only make posts that try to either help people or point out gross inaccuracies in people's statements. Can't do that all the time though because I would be forever stalking a few individuals around these forums but I call them like I see them when I come across it.

 

[RampantAndroid]

You know, that's another point. Excessive force is definitely possible here based on the scene description. I'm not clear how they can lay down 70 rounds on one target in a hallway unless they were completely incompetent as a SWAT team.

By my count, depending on the weapon system and magazine capacity, there were no less than three separate weapons fired at this guy, all three of which would have almost completely emptied their magazines. This assumes they were using 30 round magazines.

Assuming these guys assaulted with MP5s with 30 round magazines and a rate of fire of about 700 rounds per minute, they would have fired for approximately 5 seconds each, near simultaneously, on full auto, to put down 70 total rounds. A properly trained marksman and point man should be able to fire less than 5 rounds to eliminate the threat.

If two or three people nearly discharged their ENTIRE magazine....then they should be benched immediately. I only shoot for fun and at 25 yards with my M14 (they would have engaged at, AT MOST, 25 yards) I can easily make 100% of my rounds land on target, where I want them to go. With sights only - no scope, no hologram sight...nothing. These guys should have each fired at most 3 rounds each.

Excessive force, much?

 

[boomhower]

some people have seeming missed this important detail.

That point is completely irrelevant. The mere fact he had the rifle aimed at them was justification for deadly force. Whether the safety was on or if he shot or not doesn't matter. The main thing is why they were there and the method in which the warrant carried out.

 

[RampantAndroid]

That point is completely irrelevant. The mere fact he had the rifle aimed at them was justification for deadly force. Whether the safety was on or if he shot or not doesn't matter. The main thing is why they were there and the method in which the warrant carried out.

If it was a no-knock which witnesses are saying it was....no, it's expected.

Moreover, WHY DOES A DRUG BUST INVOLVE HEAVILY ARMED SWAT TEAMS?

What's wrong with the picture here guys?

 

[shortylickens]

If it was a no-knock which witnesses are saying it was....no, it's expected.

Moreover, WHY DOES A DRUG BUST INVOLVE HEAVILY ARMED SWAT TEAMS?

What's wrong with the picture here guys?

Ummm, did you think drug lords enforce their trade with nerf bats and whiffle balls?

 

[alkemyst]

If two or three people nearly discharged their ENTIRE magazine....then they should be benched immediately. I only shoot for fun and at 25 yards with my M14 (they would have engaged at, AT MOST, 25 yards) I can easily make 100% of my rounds land on target, where I want them to go. With sights only - no scope, no hologram sight...nothing. These guys should have each fired at most 3 rounds each.

Excessive force, much?

Unfortunately the masses are defending this course of action and it's more and more common in many police situations now. Officer unloads the weapon even when less than deadly force could have been used.

They get a slap on the wrist usually as long as not many were witnesses and the public doesn't cry out against them.

Unfortunately the pussification of America is running full steam ahead. Soon police will be able to just come up to your door and ask to 'take a look around the premises'.

 

[Ackmed]

Are you an idiot? You do NOT ever pull a gun, loaded, safetied, unsafetied, rubber duck, etc, on the cops. If you do, expect to get taken down. The cops entered under a legal search warrant, its irrelevant that they didn't find anything, they entered legally. The ex-marine pointed an assault rifle at them, which the police have no way of knowing whether or not it was loaded or safetied, they saw a deadly open pointed at them and responded accordingly.

It appears you are the idiot. They didnt knock and ask to come in. They barged in, his house, and he didnt know who it was. Think before you speak "idiot".

Maybe you should get a clue before trying to give your input when clearly you are not in a position to do so.

 

[HAL9000]

Maybe if you would have read the article instead of spouting off and intentionally derailing the thread you wouldn't look like an idiot. If you're going to be a jackass at least RTFA before you do so we don't have to spend most of the time correcting your idiotic thoughts that would be explained in the source.

No, no it doesn't. Being shot 60 times, there's a very good chance that he was hit in the head, heart, or major artery and bled to death very quickly. This is common sense, and while its possible that he didn't get shot there its very unlikely that he lived for an hour even if none of those had been hit.

Seriously, STFU and stay out of the thread until you can be bothered to read the article. Likewise, if you you don't want to discuss something then don't bring it up in the first place. You knew what posting about your views on gun control would do and the manner you did it was clearly intending to incite the responses you got. You can't feign ignorance on that as you've done it several times and have been told repeatedly to stop it.

I'm feigning nothing, I'm sticking with my original post in this thread. I stand by it.

Oh, so you really just incredibly fucking stupid. A marine was murdered by police for defending his home and you want to spin it. Did you read the article? Or did you just come in here with guns blazing like these stupid cops?

There's no spin, if he didn't have a gun this wouldn't have happened.

He's a marine, he did what he was trained to do. All witnesses contradict the police who claim they made their presence known. Even then, the guy's wife's family recently had several members murdered in a home invasion.

He shouldn't have had the tools to do what he was trained to do around the house.

 

[HAL9000]

i have a couple very close friends that are very bipolar. you can deny it all you want, but whether your reasoning is sound or not isnt really the problem. sometimes bipolar people do what they know is the wrong thing because it suits them at that given moment. one of my friends has this particular quirk to his personality, and sometimes he has lost friends over stupid shit he knew he shouldnt have done.

Yes, I'll give you that being spontaneous with poorly thought out decisions does come as a part of being bipolar, but it doesn't effect rational decisions or beliefs that you hold long term, just short term spur of the moment ones.

I know you were a troll and are pretty dumb most of the time, but this one post shows how dumb you really are. Being bi-polar does IN FACT affect your cognitive and reasoning skills. It does so because it allows your brain to become chemically unbalanced to the point you act and think on emotions that shouldn't exist in the first place. Either they are manic or depressive in nature. I know because I've been around a lot of bi-polar people and had a girl friend for a few years I was practically living with who was bi-polar. She was smart, of that there was no doubt. Yet she did some of the stupidest things because of her condition that no reasonable person would do.

The fact is, bi-polar people tend to commit suicide more often than people without a mental condition. Committing suicide is not a reasonable thing for anyone to do unless they are terminally ill and in a lot of suffering. Having a massive depressive spell is not being terminally ill.

Actually, most people that are highly bi-polar will do things way out of character when they are not on proper medication also proves how much the condition affects their reasoning skills. I've known people on manic highs do some crazy crap like go off and buy a car or three in a day just because it makes them feel good, despite the debt it incurs them. And the moment they slip into a depressive mode they pawn everything they have and go into bankruptcy. Actually my aunt has done this several times and it's damn annoying she has to live off the charity of my parents for the most part because of how badly she gets affected when her condition goes into over drive into either manic or depressive state.

That's all perfectly valid, but I have a view about certain things independent of my mood cycles, I feel this way about gun ownerships whether you ask me while depressed, manic, mixed or whatever. This isn't me being swayed by my emotions, it's logic, abstract logic.

 

[Ackmed]

He shouldn't have had the tools to do what he was trained to do around the house.

It was his right to bear arms and protect his house. There are many things that shouldn't have happened, that wasn't one of them.

 

[HAL9000]

It was his right to bear arms and protect his house. There are many things that shouldn't have happened, that wasn't one of them.

This shouldn't be a right.

 

[Numenorean]

This shouldn't be a right.

You think it shouldn't be. But oh the fuck well, it doesn't matter what you think. It IS a right. Period. Move on.

 

[shortylickens]

I find it interesting we JUST had a thread on this and it was discussed what would happen if a guy faked being a cop and charged into your home with no warrant.
I believe the general consensus was he'd get shot dead but if it turned out to be a real cop then the rest of them would gun you down.

 

[HAL9000]

You think it shouldn't be. But oh the fuck well, it doesn't matter what you think. It IS a right. Period. Move on.

That doesn't make it morally OK. The police were right to shoot him, he shouldn't have had a gun.

 

[Numenorean]

That doesn't make it morally OK. The police were right to shoot him, he shouldn't have had a gun.

That isn't what this thread is about, and nobody gives a shit what you think.

 

[Brigandier]

Come on guys...

 

[SolMiester]

I do find it a little unsettling that the notion being put forth by the police is that an innocent person would hear sirens and see lights and hear an announcement by the police that they're entering with a warrant would then take up a defensive position at the end of a dark hallway.

Thats a very good point, if the innocent man had heard they were police, he wouldnt be aiming a gun at them!