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Xbox Project Natal vs. PS Motion Controller

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Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
 
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

I just remember first facepalming massively when they said motion controlling. But right after that Knight Demo started, and was hooked. I think the dev said it. Some things you just need buttons for. From what we've seen, Natal hasn't given footage like Sony did with their games.
 
Originally posted by: tenshodo13
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

I just remember first facepalming massively when they said motion controlling. But right after that Knight Demo started, and was hooked. I think the dev said it. Some things you just need buttons for. From what we've seen, Natal hasn't given footage like Sony did with their games.
Click to expand...

I thought the Natal stage demos served their purpose very well. However, Sony's "neato" factor was higher because they effectively showed "dual wielding" as well as almost perfect manipulation of 3D space.
 
Originally posted by: tenshodo13
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

I just remember first facepalming massively when they said motion controlling. But right after that Knight Demo started, and was hooked. I think the dev said it. Some things you just need buttons for. From what we've seen, Natal hasn't given footage like Sony did with their games.
Click to expand...

But with Natal you can have buttons.
Imagine a (cheesy I know and we've been there before) wireless glove which allows you to press buttons.
Natal is better in that you can mix and match the motion controls with buttons. You can have a controller in your hand, like a stick, or a gun or whatever, but use it within the scope of Natal, or you can do it without a controller.
IMO it gives greater freedom, although initially I would expect that the Sony system will be easier to utilise.
Full body things, like kickboxing/MMA could be interesting with Natal, while regular boxing which is more Wii like is easily possible with the Sony system.
What Sony have showed is a bit like a small extension of the Wiimote idea, but more freedom and less controller, while Natal is even more of an evolution with even more freedom and less (required) controller.
 
Originally posted by: Lonyo
Originally posted by: tenshodo13
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

I just remember first facepalming massively when they said motion controlling. But right after that Knight Demo started, and was hooked. I think the dev said it. Some things you just need buttons for. From what we've seen, Natal hasn't given footage like Sony did with their games.
Click to expand...

But with Natal you can have buttons.
Imagine a (cheesy I know and we've been there before) wireless glove which allows you to press buttons.
Natal is better in that you can mix and match the motion controls with buttons. You can have a controller in your hand, like a stick, or a gun or whatever, but use it within the scope of Natal, or you can do it without a controller.
IMO it gives greater freedom, although initially I would expect that the Sony system will be easier to utilise.
Full body things, like kickboxing/MMA could be interesting with Natal, while regular boxing which is more Wii like is easily possible with the Sony system.
What Sony have showed is a bit like a small extension of the Wiimote idea, but more freedom and less controller, while Natal is even more of an evolution with even more freedom and less (required) controller.
Click to expand...

In one of the 3Dv videos of the camera that acted as the basis for Natal, it showed someone playing a FPS by pointing their finger like a gun. Every time they did a downward motion with their thumb, it was the same as pressing a button on the controller to fire the gun.
 
Originally posted by: Queasy
Originally posted by: Lonyo
Originally posted by: tenshodo13
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Finally saw the video of Sony's motion controller, and I have to say it's much cooler than what you guys described. Given the demos they gave, I kinda have to give them both a tie now. It's like the Wii on ten different kinds of steroids. Really, really interesting stuff.
Click to expand...

I just remember first facepalming massively when they said motion controlling. But right after that Knight Demo started, and was hooked. I think the dev said it. Some things you just need buttons for. From what we've seen, Natal hasn't given footage like Sony did with their games.
Click to expand...

But with Natal you can have buttons.
Imagine a (cheesy I know and we've been there before) wireless glove which allows you to press buttons.
Natal is better in that you can mix and match the motion controls with buttons. You can have a controller in your hand, like a stick, or a gun or whatever, but use it within the scope of Natal, or you can do it without a controller.
IMO it gives greater freedom, although initially I would expect that the Sony system will be easier to utilise.
Full body things, like kickboxing/MMA could be interesting with Natal, while regular boxing which is more Wii like is easily possible with the Sony system.
What Sony have showed is a bit like a small extension of the Wiimote idea, but more freedom and less controller, while Natal is even more of an evolution with even more freedom and less (required) controller.
Click to expand...

In one of the 3Dv videos of the camera that acted as the basis for Natal, it showed someone playing a FPS by pointing their finger like a gun. Every time they did a downward motion with their thumb, it was the same as pressing a button on the controller to fire the gun.
Click to expand...

Except that actually having a button to push is quite nice. Few people would prefer to use a touchscreen keyboard that a real keyboard...now imagine having to use a keyboard in midair.

And this is still giving natal more credit that it's probably capable of - they certainly havent shown it to be capable of actually recognizing individual finger movements in 3d space.

The reason I'm so much more inclined to sony's tech is that it just seems much more practical. It's grounded in reality, with physical objects, which are more easily applicable to today's games. Natal is much more pie in the sky, and they showed it off with completely failed body recognition on the avatar, goofy body flailing, and silly painting. The sony tech showed off real gaming possibilites.

I have to remind everyone again of when they saw and used the wiimote for the first time. It seems almost magical. Now we see that Wii Sports was just a clever implementation of very limited technology that made it seem much more capable than it really was - and I'm almost positive natal will have the same if not worse shortcomings in the wild.

And let's not forget that sony's tech is still primarily camera based - they've been using the eyetoy for years. The PS3 + eyetoy can easily be programmed to do facial recognition, recognize basic hand flicks for menu navigation etc - it may not succeed at the same full body control as natal appears to, but its hardly limited to just the wands.

Nintendo with motionplus is available now...and it seems like it'll be good. Microsoft's is so high concept, so out there, you wonder if it'll really work. Sony seems like theyre taking it to the next level, but not jumping off a cliff. It's the right mix.

Naturally, both natal and PS motion will fail miserably like every other expensive peripheral, and just set the stage for the next gen. Motionplus will succeed because it's cheap, and comes packed in with a killer app, like the rumble pack and starfox 64.

 
You're assuming Natal and PS motion will be expensive. 3DV Z-camera that served as the basis for natal reportedly had a target price of 100 dollars 2 years ago. Yes it just a target but it was probably a target with a small profit. Microsoft with its buckets of money, and time can afford to either give it away to 360 owners or sell it for 20 bucks like the Wii Motion plus add on.

And what's this killer app do you see the wii motion plus being packed with? First up will be Tiger Woods 2010 in about a week or so. Grand Slam Tennis follows after that. Tiger Woods seem to have add support for it mid way though. Tennis I"m not so sure.

Wii Sports Resort isn't gonna come till late July in the US and Europe.
 
Originally posted by: Dark Jedi
Natal looks the most interesting. Sony's looked just like a wiimote (welcome to 2 years ago for the company that didn't think it's users wanted rumble anymore).
Click to expand...

In all fairness, it was the result of a legal dispute with Immersion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_v._Sony
Waiting for the suit to pan out would have delayed the PS3 by several months. I guess Sony figured it wasn't worth it and just put together a controller without rumble so the PS3 would be out in time for Christmas. Timing is everything.

I still think Sony and Microsoft have come too late with the motion control technology and it's just purely trying to capitalize of the Wii's success rather than being anything truly innovative. It will attract existing 360 and PS3 owners, that's for sure. However, I can't see Natal or PS3mote moving many more systems. Of course I'm always delighted to be surprised.
 
Originally posted by: herkulease
You're assuming Natal and PS motion will be expensive. 3DV Z-camera that served as the basis for natal reportedly had a target price of 100 dollars 2 years ago. Yes it just a target but it was probably a target with a small profit. Microsoft with its buckets of money, and time can afford to either give it away to 360 owners or sell it for 20 bucks like the Wii Motion plus add on.
Click to expand...

There is no way in the world they will sell it for $20. Thats just delusional. Keep in mind this is the same company that sells Wifi adaptors for $99 and 120gb HDDs for $150. Nintendo can sell motionplus for $20 not because theyre nice guys, but because it's essentially nothing more than a cheap gyroscope in a plastic box that piggybacks on the wiimote's functionality.

For Sony and MS, it's such a departure from their standard controller that it will split the market, and with such a small initial installbase and high barrier to entry, it will never catch on with third party developers, and thus will never catch on with the public at large. This has happened time and time again, from cameras to light guns to CD addons, to every other wacky peripheral ever released. This tech wont come to real fruition till the next gen, just like CDs and the PS1. The only way a peripheral has ever taken off is if it comes packed in with a killer app (Wii fit, guitar hero), but even then, your use of it will likely be almost entirely limited to that app, since most other implementations will be half assed, if they even exist.

And what's this killer app do you see the wii motion plus being packed with? First up will be Tiger Woods 2010 in about a week or so. Grand Slam Tennis follows after that. Tiger Woods seem to have add support for it mid way though. Tennis I"m not so sure.

Wii Sports Resort isn't gonna come till late July in the US and Europe.
Click to expand...

Wii sports resort is a killer app. It's a sequel to the best selling game of all time. Regardless of what hardcore gamers think of the Wii and Wii Sports, it's virtually guaranteed to fly off the shelves, and there will be millions of motionplus enabled controllers out there before long.
 
Originally posted by: BD2003
For Sony and MS, it's such a departure from their standard controller that it will split the market, and with such a small initial installbase and high barrier to entry, it will never catch on with third party developers, and thus will never catch on with the public at large. This has happened time and time again, from cameras to light guns to CD addons, to every other wacky peripheral ever released. This tech wont come to real fruition till the next gen, just like CDs and the PS1. The only way a peripheral has ever taken off is if it comes packed in with a killer app (Wii fit, guitar hero), but even then, your use of it will likely be almost entirely limited to that app, since most other implementations will be half assed, if they even exist.
Click to expand...
See, this is where I disagree. Wii Fit, Guitar Hero, and Rock Band have demonstrated that, with the right software, consumers will not only shell out for peripherals, but they will spend tons of money on them. IMHO, if there has been one lesson to learn from this generation, it's that you've got to bundle your hardware with (at least semi-compelling) software.

Another thing you're disregarding is ease of integration. If implementing Natal (or Sony's system) is made easy for devs, they'll do it. And, of course, if Microsoft hands out a bunch of basic Natal control schemes in its SDK (eg, for driving, etc.), devs will be even more likely to use them.

Want to sell the 360 to the casual crowd? Super-easy. Take the existing arcade system, yank the headset, include Natal and an exercise / casual sports game, raise the price to $250. They'll sell off the shelves like no one's business. I seriously think Microsoft could have a winner here.
 
Originally posted by: erwos
Originally posted by: BD2003
For Sony and MS, it's such a departure from their standard controller that it will split the market, and with such a small initial installbase and high barrier to entry, it will never catch on with third party developers, and thus will never catch on with the public at large. This has happened time and time again, from cameras to light guns to CD addons, to every other wacky peripheral ever released. This tech wont come to real fruition till the next gen, just like CDs and the PS1. The only way a peripheral has ever taken off is if it comes packed in with a killer app (Wii fit, guitar hero), but even then, your use of it will likely be almost entirely limited to that app, since most other implementations will be half assed, if they even exist.
Click to expand...

See, this is where I disagree. Wii Fit, Guitar Hero, and Rock Band have demonstrated that, with the right software, consumers will not only shell out for peripherals, but they will spend tons of money on them. IMHO, if there has been one lesson to learn from this generation, it's that you've got to bundle your hardware with (at least semi-compelling) software.
Click to expand...

But you're actually agreeing with me then. Wii fit and GH/RB have sold great, but what else is the balance board or guitar controllers really used for but their own games? In order for these motion controllers to be relevant, they need to come packed in with excellent games, and lower expectations for being used for anything but those pack in games.

Another thing you're disregarding is ease of integration. If implementing Natal (or Sony's system) is made easy for devs, they'll do it. And, of course, if Microsoft hands out a bunch of basic Natal control schemes in its SDK (eg, for driving, etc.), devs will be even more likely to use them.
Click to expand...

Sure, theyll hack it in, like they do with the balance board, or even with the wiimote itself on most ports. But it'll probably be a bit pointless. But very few third party devs are going to go out of their way to make a natal only game, even if it is easy, because there probably wont be enough people to sell it to.

Want to sell the 360 to the casual crowd? Super-easy. Take the existing arcade system, yank the headset, include Natal and an exercise / casual sports game, raise the price to $250. They'll sell off the shelves like no one's business. I seriously think Microsoft could have a winner here.
Click to expand...

I'm still not convinced the 360 will ever have as much sway with the casuals as MS wants it to, no matter what they do.
 
Originally posted by: BD2003
But you're actually agreeing with me then. Wii fit and GH/RB have sold great, but what else is the balance board or guitar controllers really used for but their own games? In order for these motion controllers to be relevant, they need to come packed in with excellent games, and lower expectations for being used for anything but those pack in games.
Click to expand...
I don't understand how you're making this into a criticism of Natal, though. Wii Fit and GH/RB sell insanely well, and Microsoft's in-house developers are rather competent. There's no reason that Microsoft couldn't produce something that combined Wii Sports and Fit, but like a hundred times better. 🙂

Sure, theyll hack it in, like they do with the balance board, or even with the wiimote itself on most ports. But it'll probably be a bit pointless. But very few third party devs are going to go out of their way to make a natal only game, even if it is easy, because there probably wont be enough people to sell it to.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, if it's unsuccessful, no one will develop for it. But your assumption that it will be unsuccessful because of lack of third-party support because it's unsuccessful is, um, circular logic.

I'm still not convinced the 360 will ever have as much sway with the casuals as MS wants it to, no matter what they do.
Click to expand...
I think most people would have said the same of Nintendo a few years ago. But a really compelling product could shift the scales, especially if the perception that many casuals just think of the Wii as the "Wii Sports box" is correct. Microsoft could really bring a lot to the table with a $200-$250 bundle.
 
Re: Natal & Buttons...

Who cares about buttons... you start developing games with "touchscreen" UI's, and then it becomes something like a Tablet PC. Or Microsoft Surface-like. There's absolutely no need for any sort of actual controller with a proper UI designed around Natal.

Now on the other hand, I would most definitely appreciate a hybrid approach... for example take a flight simulator. You get the cockpit view, with all of the accessories being UI-Natal based. Actual flight control could still be handled by a controller or whatnot. But you want to arm your bombs or change your thrust vector, use Natal.
 
the reason I like Natal is because you can use it with a regular controller. There are endless options. In FPS you can use it to throw gredades while still using your controller and stuff to shoot. That is just 1 example.

I would perfer it be used like this. Additions that are usually combersome to switch back and forth on a controller can be utilized controller free with natal.

 
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
the reason I like Natal is because you can use it with a regular controller. There are endless options. In FPS you can use it to throw gredades while still using your controller and stuff to shoot. That is just 1 example.
Click to expand...
Or head-tracking. Tilt your head to the right to look right in your racing game. That alone could really be an amazing use for Natal, or any camera with the right software.

I'm also thinking that this could be a very interesting way to do RTS controls. Kinda like the old multi-touch demos for Surface and the iPhone, but in the air.
 
Originally posted by: erwos
Originally posted by: bl4ckfl4g
the reason I like Natal is because you can use it with a regular controller. There are endless options. In FPS you can use it to throw gredades while still using your controller and stuff to shoot. That is just 1 example.
Click to expand...
Or head-tracking. Tilt your head to the right to look right in your racing game. That alone could really be an amazing use for Natal, or any camera with the right software.
Click to expand...

Wow, you just really piqued my interest in Natal. Would be awesome to be playing Rainbow Six, in cover, and peak your head around to look. Hell, I do that sometimes anyway, might as well have a camera see me do it and transfer it into the game. 🙂
 
natal won't fly well because the fat kids can sit in the sofa and play wii or ps3 but they can't stand up kick serving a ball. they will be owned and then rage quit.
 
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
How about neither because both are silly gimmicks?
Click to expand...

Why did you come into this thread then?
Click to expand...

Wanted to see what people thought of them. I seem to be in the minority but I just don't see either one gaining any real traction. No peripheral sold separately has ever done that well, has it? It's only when you include it with the system (like with the Wii) or with a particular game (Guitar Hero, Rock Band) that you have everyone using it.

Maybe MS and Sony's next consoles will make use of this technology, but for now it seems like just a tech demo that will never really be that important. Who's honestly going to spend $100 on top of what they've already spent for their console just to be able to swing their arms to do stuff? I just don't get it.
 
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Maybe MS and Sony's next consoles will make use of this technology, but for now it seems like just a tech demo that will never really be that important. Who's honestly going to spend $100 on top of what they've already spent for their console just to be able to swing their arms to do stuff? I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

You could always ask the few million Wii Fit owners out there. 😛
 
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
How about neither because both are silly gimmicks?
Click to expand...

Why did you come into this thread then?
Click to expand...

Wanted to see what people thought of them. I seem to be in the minority but I just don't see either one gaining any real traction. No peripheral sold separately has ever done that well, has it? It's only when you include it with the system (like with the Wii) or with a particular game (Guitar Hero, Rock Band) that you have everyone using it.

Maybe MS and Sony's next consoles will make use of this technology, but for now it seems like just a tech demo that will never really be that important. Who's honestly going to spend $100 on top of what they've already spent for their console just to be able to swing their arms to do stuff? I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

Okami sold me on IR cursors, and Tiger woods 07 (yes 07) sold me on motion control. I'm not sure about Natal/camera-based controls, but a responsive 1:1 motion control system is what I've been waiting for. Of course if Nintendo delivers it next week then Sony's becomes much less exciting, but it will still be nice to have it on an HD system.
 
Originally posted by: peritusONE
Originally posted by: AstroManLuca
Maybe MS and Sony's next consoles will make use of this technology, but for now it seems like just a tech demo that will never really be that important. Who's honestly going to spend $100 on top of what they've already spent for their console just to be able to swing their arms to do stuff? I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

You could always ask the few million Wii Fit owners out there. 😛
Click to expand...

Sure, once I do that I'll get back to you on how many would buy it again if they had the choice. I'm guessing a large majority would choose to save the cash since they end up putting the thing in a closet forever. Of course, the same could be said of the Wii in general.
 
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