Xbox One X (Scorpio) SoC Discussion

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What's inside Scorpio's SoC?

  • Jaguar CPU Cores + Polaris Based (GFX8) GPU

    Votes: 42 30.2%
  • Jaguar CPU Cores + Vega Based (GFX9) GPU

    Votes: 43 30.9%
  • Zen CPU Cores + Polaris Based (GFX8) GPU

    Votes: 16 11.5%
  • Zen CPU Cores + Vega Based (GFX9) GPU

    Votes: 38 27.3%

  • Total voters
    139
  • Poll closed .

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
What's the maximum practical clock for 14nm Jaguar?

Puma+ for Carrizo-L was up clockable up to 2.5 GHz. Wiki says these are boost clocks, with the A8-7410 sustaining 2.2 GHz.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9246/amds-carrizo-l-apus-unveiled-12-25w-quad-core-pumaL

14nm Puma or Jaguar might reach a stable 2.8 GHz but I wouldn't expect too much now. Interesting that AMD's small core era is coming to an end. It started great with the first Bobcat parts, fizzled, then got much better with Jaguar and once again kind of fizzled. Heres to hoping Zen is AMD's golden boy and actually be deployed across all their CPU/APU product stacks.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Anything more powerful than a Jaguar is eating into power budget that they'll need for that gigantic GPU.
Power has not much to do with it :D. They can't afford to put a big CPU in it 'cause that will eat into GPU budget.

I'm pretty sure that Sony got input from devs when deciding the hardware.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
Some new tidbits (via Beyond3D):

"How is Xbox Scorpio development shaping up? You said announcing at E3 in June was in part to give developers time to get themselves familiar with the hardware. How is that coming along?

Really well. Actually, with the hardware timelines right now we're a little ahead of plan."

"We'd looked at doing something that was higher performance this year, and I'd say the [PS4] Pro is about what we thought--with the GPU, CPU, memory that was here this year--that you could go do, and we decided that we wanted to do something different."

www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-head-phil-spencer-talks-scorpio-ps4-pro-4k-re/1100-6444198
 

kraatus77

Senior member
Aug 26, 2015
266
59
101
So it seems they(amd) are focusing on this instead of desktop gpus, thus vega is now 1h2017 instead of 1Q ? although it was never really confirmed but i guess that's more important to them since who wants GP104 like performance already bought 1080/70.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
Scorpio presentation next to the Ryzen/Vega demo PC.

EKQ9prI.png


To be clear I still think it's a Jaguar/Puma SoC - but 8 'logical' Zen cores (4C/8T) would certainly make things more interesting.

HDMI 2.1 support?

https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2017/01/hdmi-2-1-anunciado-la-project-scorpio-llegara
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,847
3,297
136
A 4 core low frequency Zen would be around 33W and 4 core Jaguars are usually in 15W range meaning that the 8 cores on the Xbox One draw around 30W.

2.05 4C Jaguar use 12W in Integer based code when fully loaded , at 1.75GHz the 8 cores in the PS4 draw 18W at most, at the time and even ectually no other solution could provide the requirered perf/Watt.

With a 14nm die shrink they could theorically clock them at 3GHz within the same TDP.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
I originally voted Jaguar and Vega, but these days, I'm thinking it might be more likely to use Zen and Vega.

A 4C/8T Zen CPU would probably only need to be clocked at 1.6 Ghz to equal the current Jaguar cluster in performance. So, a 2.4Ghz Zen 4C/8T would be a lot faster while also fairly power efficient.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
The comment about the sign would seem to indicate that it's RyZen.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,475
136
If Scorpio uses Ryzen instead of Jaguar alongwith Vega then PS4 Pro will be crushed. AMD is clocking 3.6 Ghz base / 4 Ghz turbo at roughly 100w on 8C/16T. 4C/8T running at same clocks would be roughly 55-60w (won't be exactly half). Cut down the clocks a bit to 3.0-3.2 Ghz and you could get the CPU portion to draw roughly 35w as you need lower voltage at lower frequencies. This 4C/8T Ryzen CPU running at 3.0 Ghz will murder the PS4 Pro's Jaguar cores at 2.1 Ghz. There will be a massive performance improvement on the CPU and Scorpio would be the first console built for 60 fps gaming. With Vega sporting significant architectural improvements and more suitable for VR I think Microsoft has made the smart decision. Scorpio will provide a much better platform for game developers in the 2018-2020 timeframe. I think Microsoft first party titles for Scorpio will be jaw dropping and PS4 Pro games will be no match in quality and performance. Sony might be forced to launch their true next gen console by late 2019 based on Zen+ and Navi.
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
10,847
3,297
136
.

A 4C/8T Zen CPU would probably only need to be clocked at 1.6 Ghz to equal the current Jaguar cluster in performance. So, a 2.4Ghz Zen 4C/8T would be a lot faster while also fairly power efficient.

It wouldnt because for a console it s much better to have threads of equal strength, so Zen could be used only as 4C/4T, and they dont need its massive FP throughput, that s a waste of silicon.

Given the CPU power budget that is less than 20W they have the following options if they use 14nm for all designs :

8 Jaguar cores at 3GHz
8 XV cores at 2.6GHz
4 Zen cores at 2.8GHz

The bigger INT throughput and perf/watt are provided by the first and second options...
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,952
1,585
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Ofcource zen 4c is another world to 8c jag. But its also about 3 times the size and power on 14nn. And thats even without l3 for the zen.
I am not sure its that optimal for 14nm but surely they will get rid of those sub 60fps in eg bf1 that hurts the experience.
Sony got their part out early. Its not a ps5 its ps4 pro. Seems like a nice move to me protecting their userbase and software developers. But surely the compettition will heat up tremendously if scorpio is zen plus vega. And it will also impact pc.
If 2019 consoles is both zen something cpu and they surely are at that time looking at where things os heading now then pc gaming will come under more pressure.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,967
720
126
It wouldnt because for a console it s much better to have threads of equal strength, so Zen could be used only as 4C/4T, and they dont need its massive FP throughput, that s a waste of silicon.
They can reduce the FP units ryzen has, remove the/some cache, make SMT completely static through microcode or whatever, clock it at the same ~1,5Ghz and give the next gen consoles a completely compatible cpu with 40% uplift at the same power levels, they can call that treadsrapper or dorky or some of the other names they trademarked.
Just because ryzen is the first zen soc doesn't mean that every zen design has to be completely the same.

It would be completely idiotic for amd to keep producing older chips if they can do it with zen.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,509
5,159
136
It'll definitely have at least 8 threads. The L3 could be cut or removed completely since this is going to be a gigantic die as it is (assuming they do use an APU design).

One other option would be basically Summit Ridge as is (cut obviously) plus a discrete Small Vega.
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
The Xbox360 had 3 hyperthreaded cores so no way that hyperthreading is impossible on consoles. I'm not saying its Zen, but if it was, 4 cores + 4 HT threads would make perfect sense because the 4 cores would be equivalent to the first Jaguar island with the 4 HT threads being the OS + extra 1 or 2 threads available to the game engine on the second Jaguar island. It would fit.
 
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FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
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I believe they will use a full 8 zen cores on this APU. Maybe use MCM of 1 Summit Ridge and 1Vega gpu with HBM2. They will just clock them to max efficiency, maybe 2-2.4Ghz 8C 16T Zen +Vega +HBM2


It will (I think) be a beast. PS4 Pro will not compete with Zen + Vega
 
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itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,743
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Yeah i could see Zen + the small vega + HBM but thats an expensive solution prob around 450mm of 14nm silicon + interposer + 2 stacks of HBM. But on the plus side it would be very cheap for MS in terms of development costs. I think more likely is a traditional semi custom APU based on a 4 core Zen with Vega based GPU.

I think people are also under estimating Zen perf per watt at the same TDP it will smoke CON and CAT cores in all metrics (except size) even if they were both shrunk 14nm.
 

atticus14

Member
Apr 11, 2010
174
1
81
I think it'll be an interesting console hardware wise, they'll have so much more power available to them in a cpu upgrade alone, but with MS's promise to keep backwards compatibility up, it'll just be a shinier game in the end. They can't really expand on gameplay things like more complex physics or AI if it's still going to have to run on the old ones. They could do good things in single player games that really affect gameplay, but that would be a bit of extra work that not many developers will commit to unless MS hands over extra cash, but anything multiplayer would have to stay the same.
 

IllogicalGlory

Senior member
Mar 8, 2013
934
346
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Yeah i could see Zen + the small vega + HBM but thats an expensive solution prob around 450mm of 14nm silicon + interposer + 2 stacks of HBM. But on the plus side it would be very cheap for MS in terms of development costs. I think more likely is a traditional semi custom APU based on a 4 core Zen with Vega based GPU.

I think people are also under estimating Zen perf per watt at the same TDP it will smoke CON and CAT cores in all metrics (except size) even if they were both shrunk 14nm.
HBM seems unlikely; the render shown in the reveal had GDDR modules. Things could change of course, but the plan was to have regular old RAM. Memory bandwidth is 320GB/s, so we're either looking at 7GHz 384-bit or 256-bit GDDR5X, and the render also showed 12 memory chips (to fit a 384-bit bus). Maybe Vega 11 doesn't have HBM.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,670
1,250
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My guess is 8 neutered Zen cores. No L3. No SMT. Perhaps a few more radical cuts.