Xbox One X (Scorpio) SoC Discussion

[R0H1T]

That process hacker tool sure looks a lot like process explorer.

It's better than process explorer, much better in fact

 

[William Gaatjes]

It's better than process explorer, much better in fact

I just downloaded it. Handy to have around.

 

[Sweepr]

Interesting tidbits from Eurogamer's latest article:

In the wake of its E3 2016 reveal for the new Project Scorpio console, Microsoft began to share details with developers on how they expect to see 4K supported on its new hardware. A whitepaper was released on its development portal, entitled 'Reaching 4K and GPU Scaling Across Multiple Xbox Devices'.

ESRAM:

"ESRAM remains essential to achieving high performance on both Xbox One and Xbox One S," the whitepaper reveals. "However, Project Scorpio and PC are not provided with ESRAM. Because developers are not allowed to ship a Project Scorpio-only SKU, optimising for ESRAM remains critical to performance on Microsoft platforms."

GPU:

There are other clues as to Scorpio's final hardware set-up within the whitepaper. The six teraflop GPU is once again confirmed, with the GPU's compute power rated at around 4.5 times the capabilities of Xbox One. Four times more L2 cache is also confirmed - a new detail that does not tell us that much, except that that the GPU architecture in Scorpio is at least as modern as AMD's Polaris line. Based on our discussions with Mark Cerny on PS4 Pro, we can reasonably assume that Microsoft can customise its GPU core just as Sony did, with access to Radeon roadmap features up to - and perhaps beyond - AMD's upcoming Vega architecture.

...We now know that AMD's next-gen Vega GPU boasts considerably improved frequencies - and the faster it runs, the fewer CUs are required to hit the 6TF target. Just 40 CUs at 1.18GHz could deliver Scorpio's stated 6TF, or 44 at 1.07GHz. On top of that, Vega's use of a tile-based rasteriser (widely seen as the key to Nvidia's performance lead in its Maxwell GPU technology) could also yield dividends in delivering a more capable 4K console.

CPU:

In the wake of CES, there is renewed speculation that Scorpio may feature more advanced Zen CPU cores. However, a throwaway comment within the Microsoft whitepaper on how developers may wish to use Scorpio's capabilities again makes this seem unlikely.

"We acknowledge that developers may not wish to spend all of the additional GPU resource of Project Scorpio on resolution, and this is not mandated," the paper says. "To make the best games possible, developers will inevitably spend GPU resource on other quality improvements such as higher fidelity shadows, reflections, texture filtering and lower draw distances. Another option developers might consider is frame-rate upscaling - running graphics at 60Hz but the CPU at 30Hz and interpolating animation."

4K:

However, the fact that the GPU does more than compute pixels can help in the quest to render at 4K, and not all surfaces are tied to display resolution. The whitepaper also reveals that rasterisation efficiency increases in line with resolution - an interesting metric shared by Microsoft is that an unnamed first-party title running at 1080p sees the number of pixels processed increased by a factor of 3.5x in the leap to 4K, not the 4x we would assume.

...But the practical reality is that the document confirms that at least one first-party 1080p title has transitioned relatively easily to native 4K (our best guess would be the Forza Motorsport engine is the technology in question here), and accepts the reality that GPU resources aren't always best spent on precision pixel-work at ultra HD resolutions.

www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-race-to-4k-how-scorpio-targets-ultra-hd-gaming

 

[Dresdenboy]

It seems that to avoid a big performance and task scheduling delta between Scorpio and it's weaker brethren, MS wanted to keep the Jaguar cores, just beefed up a bit to keep up with possible increased scenery, data shuffling tasks caused by higher resolutions (bigger textures), more complex shaders (thus maybe more passes too), more advanced render methods (checkerboard, frame-rate upscaling) compared to the older gen.

Oops, I should try to write shorter sentences.. ^^

 

[jpiniero]

That's pretty big news if they have decided to not allow Scorpio-only games. Then you kind of have to wonder what the point is, esp when you can look at the Slim well outselling the Pro and wonder if it's even worth it. Especially since it looks like VR in general is a super flop.

 

[rancherlee]

That's pretty big news if they have decided to not allow Scorpio-only games. Then you kind of have to wonder what the point is, esp when you can look at the Slim well outselling the Pro and wonder if it's even worth it. Especially since it looks like VR in general is a super flop.

Kinda is looking like Jaguar, I'm just hoping that they can get 60fps out of the CPU on Scorpio by getting the clocks to 2.4+. I'd rather run Ultra 1080p @ 60fps ALWAYS then medium/high 4k @ under 60fps. The PS4 Pro can't hold 60fps in some games already with Jaguar @ 2.1ghz.

 

[dogen1]

That's pretty big news if they have decided to not allow Scorpio-only games. Then you kind of have to wonder what the point is, esp when you can look at the Slim well outselling the Pro and wonder if it's even worth it. Especially since it looks like VR in general is a super flop.

Probably a temporary restriction.

 

[Sweepr]

Maybe the truth lies in between.

I have seen the DF whitepaper from E3 2016 now and am inclined to believe the info contained, but, I'm 99% sure Scorpio isn't a Jaguar CPU.

https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824339217430040578

Hard to say, might be a Puma custom jobby that harnesses features/optimizations slated for Zen.

https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824349845964148738

 

[dacostafilipe]

Yeah, lower power, better boost but the base frequency is similar to Jaguar. Should not change a lot compared to the actual X1.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Maybe the truth lies in between.



https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824339217430040578



https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/824349845964148738

Interesting. If the Scorpio SoC is going to be made at TSMC then anything Zen related is out of question I think.

A Puma/Tiger/Cheetah/Garfield extension with some Zen stuff might not be worth the trouble, as it would mean a lot of redesign. Zen likely isn't as easily synthesizable as the cat cores.

If area doesn't matter too much, ESRAM being gone, and the process being 14LPP, they might simply use one 50 sqmm Zen CCX instead of 2 Cat clusters.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Another option is to add another 4core jaguar module. A 12 core (that can run above 2GHz or @ 1,75gHz ) design. Then there is full backwards compatibility. And when more cores are desired by new games, the extra 4 cores are available. Add a new gpu and faster interconnect fabric , and who knows.
Edram as a sort of L3 for all the 3 jaguar modules ?

When is scorpio to be revealed to the market ?

 

[Doom2pro]

Interesting. If the Scorpio SoC is going to be made at TSMC then anything Zen related is out of question I think.

Can't they use the Microsoft $ to port it to TSMC 16nm?

 

[dacostafilipe]

Would it possible to use Vega if the CPU does not have Infinity Fabric? Maybe not ...

 

[Dresdenboy]

Can't they use the Microsoft $ to port it to TSMC 16nm?

Maybe. But it would be a more expensive/time consuming port than a cat core.

Would it possible to use Vega if the CPU does not have Infinity Fabric? Maybe not ...

Infinity Fabric doesn't sit that deep inside the microarchitecture. It's more like swapping memory controllers (like: GDDR5X <-> HBM2).

 

[Sweepr]

In addition, Microsoft is also planning to release a new Xbox game console codenamed Project Scorpio and the product is expected to be announced at the E3 2017 event, targeting the year-end holiday season. Sony is expected to release a thinner version of its PlayStation 4.

Microsoft's new game console is expected to feature Ultra HD and mixed reality (MR) support and PC vendors' MR head-mounted display (HMD) devices are expected to be able to connect with the Project Scorpio.

Microsoft's game console is reportedly manufactured by Pegatron Technology and Flextronics and the orders are expected to become a key revenue contributor to Pegatron in the second half. Currently, Pegatron has orders for Apple's next-generation iPhone, Microsoft's new Surface device and game console, and Tesla Model 3's control computer.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20170324PD208.html

 

[Olikan]

Maybe it's an updated puma core? Not just a 14nm srunk

Or... mixed cores, 4 puma + 4 zen

 

[NTMBK]

Maybe it's an updated puma core? Not just a 14nm srunk

Or... mixed cores, 4 puma + 4 zen

Well, AMD did have a 20nm version of Puma with some improvements in development, but cancelled it. It was part of their "Nolan" APU. Perhaps they revived that design and ported it to 14nm.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Well, AMD did have a 20nm version of Puma with some improvements in development, but cancelled it. It was part of their "Nolan" APU. Perhaps they revived that design and ported it to 14nm.

There was this LinkedIn leak about Cheetah and Tiger, one being 16nm, the other 14nm (I don't remember the order). One has been wrongly attributed to Zen.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Well, AMD did have a 20nm version of Puma with some improvements in development, but cancelled it. It was part of their "Nolan" APU. Perhaps they revived that design and ported it to 14nm.

Exactly. The 20nm disaster prevented them from ever moving it into production (among other factors). Porting that down to 14nm LPP or LPE or . . . whatever, might give them the extra oomph they need without using anything too modern or expensive/complicated.

Plus Puma+ on 14nm would be tiny.

 

[Sweepr]

It's true that Project Scorpio is going to be shown off very soon. Next week.

https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/848185183006322688
https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/848186884346056705

https://twitter.com/JezCorden/status/848643389763579904

Scorpion things next week, yes. Hardware sounds damn impressive.

https://mobile.twitter.com/shinobi602/status/848328892310056961

Apparently the specs will be revealed this week, so not long till we find out what's powering this system.

 

[imported_bman]

Reveal on Thursday

https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/849275627341574146

To clear up the speculation: @digitalfoundry will have an exclusive Xbox Scorpio reveal on @eurogamer this Thursday at 2pm UK / 6am Pacific.

 

[AMDisTheBEST]

Maybe it's an updated puma core? Not just a 14nm srunk

Or... mixed cores, 4 puma + 4 zen

not likely because no point. Console has no need for heterogeneous architecture like the big.LITTLE. Good, high performance cores are what and only things they need.

 

[nathanddrews]

DigitalFoundry is really making a name for itself with both its deep dive of hardware, but also its no holds barred approach to console performance and game optimization. I suppose that in this day and age of charging $60 for beta software, they the real MVP.

Scorpio might be what it takes to get me back into Xbox Live, but then with the promise from Microsoft that all future 1st party games will be on Windows 10, what would I need an Xbox for?

 

[Mopetar]

Scorpio might be what it takes to get me back into Xbox Live, but then with the promise from Microsoft that all future 1st party games will be on Windows 10, what would I need an Xbox for?

Well there's third party games. Also, if it's a decent box that can work as an HTPC on top of console duties, it's probably an okay grab for a lot of people.

 

[nathanddrews]

Well there's third party games. Also, if it's a decent box that can work as an HTPC on top of console duties, it's probably an okay grab for a lot of people.

The number of third party console exclusives is relatively small, so it would have to be an amazing game(s). I've already got great HTPCs, but we'll see what it can do when it comes out.