Xbox 360 CPU vs PS3 CPU...3 cores vs 8 cores

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videoclone

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2003
1,465
0
0
Originally posted by: SoothingRelease
Hmm, Sony up to the same old BS as usual. As to my knowledge, the xbox 360 has a four fold advantage over the PS3 in regard to raw processing power. The Sony unit (CELL) has a tested output of somewhere in the area of 200-250Gflop. Now architectural differences aside (We'll get to that later), the tri-coreIBM PowerPC processor in the 360 can perform well over a Tflop (emphasis on "well over"). Some claim it to run closer in the range of about 1.2Tflop (Unconfirmed). I saw the whole presentation for the PS3, and I felt that deja vu all over again. Sony claims that it's graphics core adds on an additional 1.8Tflop of processing power for a total of 2Tflop. ??? ... ??? ... ??? . WOW! And I thought with the release of the PSP that Sony was finally ready to step up to the big boys' table... I was wrong. The absurdity of their claims can't even be measured, as a graphics core has nothing to do with the systems CPU. To put it simply, SCEI is lying, again. And simply is trying to their way out of another technology spoof (and miserably failing). Cell is no where close to the power of microsoft's processing solution, and just as last time when they claimed that their "emotional engine" was on top, it ended up about 1/10 as fast as the marketed number. This isn't to say that the PS3 is inferior to the XBOX 360, only that we have seen this before and obviously microsoft came out on top. As far as developing goes and coding, this system looks even more rediculous than the emotion CPU. Many argue that the PS2 was more powerful than the xbox when people learned how to use it, but to be honest no one (except maybe bungie) ever dug that deep into the XBOX's power. My guess from the lineup of 3rd parties this time around (a vast majority of Sony's staples hoping on the XBOX360 bandwagon) that sony has finally run out of marketing tactics to appease the consumers, and with development costs skyrocketing, I think developers will put more consideration into what system they decide to base their games. But this is really just fuzz right now. Most consumers are terribly educated and will usually just listen to whatever the cool crowd says. Last gen, Sony had overwhelming support from pop culture, which made playstation into the cliche that took out nintendo. I think already with microsoft's MTV marketing campaign and sleek design (not to mention billions of dollars) that they will push sony out of the market. But this all remains to be seen. One thing is for damn sure. CELL is no where near as powerful as the 360CPU. It's almost unethical to compare them.
______________________________________________________________________
Do you work for Microsoft .. Stop assuming facts your information is going up agent 1500 Engineers from IBM, SONY, NVIDIA AND TOSHIBA

I would take their expertise and knowledge over yours any day?.

All this garbage about the previous play station and comparing it to this one is hilarious ? heck your praising how good the previous X-Box was even though it came out almost a year after the PS2... and your forgetting Nvidia was responsible for the whole thing Top to Bottom Sounds, Video Motherboard, ( Nforce+Geforce4 ) ? apart from an Intel Celeron 700 and now they helped make the PS3.

The PS3 was developed in a joint ventur by IBM, Toshiba, Sony And Nvidia These multi billion dollar companies wouldn?t allow fraudulent information to be announced with something this big its bad business for all and could cost millions.

I really hope no one here takes your garbage for more then what its worth

Your statements reflects all the 3 posts you?ve submitted to this forum.
 

Necrolezbeast

Senior member
Apr 11, 2002
838
0
0
Yet again I see Sony deciding they want to take the hard way to do things and put out theoretical numbers that will never be approached in any real life situation. Sure CELL is an awesome design, but the whole designe of games is not going to switch over to coding for all those different cores yet. Many of these games will be cross-platform, for all 3 consoles (at least 2 of em) and possibly PC also. The more these things resemble eachother, the easier they are to port games to with optimal performance. If we look at how many games are exclusive to the PS2 we find that library very lacking. Sony doesn't have the first or second party developer support to be doing these crazy ways of processing.

The Emotion Engine was an awesome idea also, if and when it was used correctly. Just a damn shame that it never had the support and most all games that were cross-platform ran better and looked better on both the Xbox and GameCube; and we all know that the GameCube wasn't the more powerful system there. Before the Xbox was released I was doubtful of MS and their ability to make a console, especially so PC like, but after the last few years they have proven me and many others wrong and have shown that they are to top contender. They did this by being the easiest platform to port games to and code for. I still vote for Nintendo though, they won me over as a child and I will never forget what they have done for video games and originality even if they are slowly dying by these market giants. Long Live Zelda, Mario, and DK!!!! w00t
 

mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
1
81
Originally posted by: SoothingRelease
Hmm, Sony up to the same old BS as usual. As to my knowledge, the xbox 360 has a four fold advantage over the PS3 in regard to raw processing power. The Sony unit (CELL) has a tested output of somewhere in the area of 200-250Gflop. Now architectural differences aside (We'll get to that later), the tri-coreIBM PowerPC processor in the 360 can perform well over a Tflop (emphasis on "well over"). Some claim it to run closer in the range of about 1.2Tflop (Unconfirmed). I saw the whole presentation for the PS3, and I felt that deja vu all over again. Sony claims that it's graphics core adds on an additional 1.8Tflop of processing power for a total of 2Tflop. ??? ... ??? ... ??? . WOW! And I thought with the release of the PSP that Sony was finally ready to step up to the big boys' table... I was wrong. The absurdity of their claims can't even be measured, as a graphics core has nothing to do with the systems CPU. To put it simply, SCEI is lying, again. And simply is trying to their way out of another technology spoof (and miserably failing). Cell is no where close to the power of microsoft's processing solution, and just as last time when they claimed that their "emotional engine" was on top, it ended up about 1/10 as fast as the marketed number. This isn't to say that the PS3 is inferior to the XBOX 360, only that we have seen this before and obviously microsoft came out on top. As far as developing goes and coding, this system looks even more rediculous than the emotion CPU. Many argue that the PS2 was more powerful than the xbox when people learned how to use it, but to be honest no one (except maybe bungie) ever dug that deep into the XBOX's power. My guess from the lineup of 3rd parties this time around (a vast majority of Sony's staples hoping on the XBOX360 bandwagon) that sony has finally run out of marketing tactics to appease the consumers, and with development costs skyrocketing, I think developers will put more consideration into what system they decide to base their games. But this is really just fuzz right now. Most consumers are terribly educated and will usually just listen to whatever the cool crowd says. Last gen, Sony had overwhelming support from pop culture, which made playstation into the cliche that took out nintendo. I think already with microsoft's MTV marketing campaign and sleek design (not to mention billions of dollars) that they will push sony out of the market. But this all remains to be seen. One thing is for damn sure. CELL is no where near as powerful as the 360CPU. It's almost unethical to compare them.

all these threads are worthless. we all know the numbers are all inflated and certain to change. besides. 1.2Tfops, where is that number from? that is insaine.maybe a floding at home or seti backup machine is in order.

eidt: 256GFlops is a official sony released number. read it in some magazine(EGM or Game Informer)
 

gg616

Junior Member
May 18, 2005
11
0
0
I'm kinda new to gaming consoles, so can someone explain to me why, if the specs of xbox360 closely resemble those of the ps3, did the preview/trailer videos of ps3 games look/feel so much better than the x360 preview/trailers?
I do not understand the specifics of the numbers for each system, but i'd like to in a layman way.
I've heard of sony's ps2 preview being pre-rendered to look better than what actually came out over the last few years, and of promising things that never eventuated. Is this a case of history repeating here as to why the ps3 graphics looked much better?
I am neither a sony or ms fan. I'm practically new to the whole thing and only looking to evaluate what system to buy.
With the amount of next-gen technology, blu-ray, processors etc, what estimate in US dollars does everyone think the systems will cost and what of the games hd-dvd game prices vs blu-ray game prices?
Also, what exactly is the story with the hd-dvd vs blu-ray war. Why is there even a war or attempt to seek peace between toshiba and sony? If a company releases a technology like blu-ray which is far superior to a competitor's, why is there so much talk about some kind of peace attempt? If Sony owns so many movies etc then why is toshiba even a threat? Why does sony 'have to' consider a compromize? Wouldn't every other pc company and media distributor want to pursue the blu-ray and leave toshiba to suffer?
Like, if sony and ms and nintendo are fighting to the death, why are sony and toshiba thinking of some peace compromize? And if there was no peace ultimately, then what does that mean for the console war, if ps3 is using blu-ray and nintendo/ms using hd-dvd, then does that mean the xbox and revolution would be forced out of existence in the long-run?
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: gg616
I'm kinda new to gaming consoles, so can someone explain to me why, if the specs of xbox360 closely resemble those of the ps3, did the preview/trailer videos of ps3 games look/feel so much better than the x360 preview/trailers?
I do not understand the specifics of the numbers for each system, but i'd like to in a layman way.
I've heard of sony's ps2 preview being pre-rendered to look better than what actually came out over the last few years, and of promising things that never eventuated. Is this a case of history repeating here as to why the ps3 graphics looked much better?
I am neither a sony or ms fan. I'm practically new to the whole thing and only looking to evaluate what system to buy.
With the amount of next-gen technology, blu-ray, processors etc, what estimate in US dollars does everyone think the systems will cost and what of the games hd-dvd game prices vs blu-ray game prices?
Also, what exactly is the story with the hd-dvd vs blu-ray war. Why is there even a war or attempt to seek peace between toshiba and sony? If a company releases a technology like blu-ray which is far superior to a competitor's, why is there so much talk about some kind of peace attempt? If Sony owns so many movies etc then why is toshiba even a threat? Why does sony 'have to' consider a compromize? Wouldn't every other pc company and media distributor want to pursue the blu-ray and leave toshiba to suffer?
Like, if sony and ms and nintendo are fighting to the death, why are sony and toshiba thinking of some peace compromize? And if there was no peace ultimately, then what does that mean for the console war, if ps3 is using blu-ray and nintendo/ms using hd-dvd, then does that mean the xbox and revolution would be forced out of existence in the long-run?

If you're referring to the Killzone 2 video... I suspect that's not actual gameplay, but either scripted and being played back and rendered by the PS3... or it's been pre-rendered and is basically a video being play back on the PS3 with no rendering actually being done. The reason I don't think it's actual gameplay is for the same reason IGN gave. It looks too perfect... all the soldiers are doing exactly what they should be doing... that just doesn't happen in a video game like that.
 

andrewsdw

Member
Feb 27, 2005
56
0
0
"In the demonstration, Toshiba used an operating system environment it had developed to increase the efficiency of Cell software development. One of the environment's key features is that application software developers can program software without considering which threads will be allotted to each of the different SPEs, because the environment allows the automatically scheduling software to SPEs."
 

mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
1
81
Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Originally posted by: gg616
I'm kinda new to gaming consoles, so can someone explain to me why, if the specs of xbox360 closely resemble those of the ps3, did the preview/trailer videos of ps3 games look/feel so much better than the x360 preview/trailers?
I do not understand the specifics of the numbers for each system, but i'd like to in a layman way.
I've heard of sony's ps2 preview being pre-rendered to look better than what actually came out over the last few years, and of promising things that never eventuated. Is this a case of history repeating here as to why the ps3 graphics looked much better?
I am neither a sony or ms fan. I'm practically new to the whole thing and only looking to evaluate what system to buy.
With the amount of next-gen technology, blu-ray, processors etc, what estimate in US dollars does everyone think the systems will cost and what of the games hd-dvd game prices vs blu-ray game prices?
Also, what exactly is the story with the hd-dvd vs blu-ray war. Why is there even a war or attempt to seek peace between toshiba and sony? If a company releases a technology like blu-ray which is far superior to a competitor's, why is there so much talk about some kind of peace attempt? If Sony owns so many movies etc then why is toshiba even a threat? Why does sony 'have to' consider a compromize? Wouldn't every other pc company and media distributor want to pursue the blu-ray and leave toshiba to suffer?
Like, if sony and ms and nintendo are fighting to the death, why are sony and toshiba thinking of some peace compromize? And if there was no peace ultimately, then what does that mean for the console war, if ps3 is using blu-ray and nintendo/ms using hd-dvd, then does that mean the xbox and revolution would be forced out of existence in the long-run?

If you're referring to the Killzone 2 video... I suspect that's not actual gameplay, but either scripted and being played back and rendered by the PS3... or it's been pre-rendered and is basically a video being play back on the PS3 with no rendering actually being done. The reason I don't think it's actual gameplay is for the same reason IGN gave. It looks too perfect... all the soldiers are doing exactly what they should be doing... that just doesn't happen in a video game like that.

confirmed. it is prerendered. sony admitted to it.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: Xpl1c1t
So who's with me and doesn't care much for consoles? PC> ALL

I think they both have their place. I'll take a console for multi-player gaming when I have my friends over vs. huddling around a PC. I also like racing games on consoles better cause I don't have a wheel or gamepad with a joystick for my PC.

First person shooters on a console are just rediculous. You just can't be as precise with a joystick as you can with a mouse. Plus up until these new consoles come out, the resolution is so low that people off in the distance are too blocky.
 

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
10,341
678
126
Originally posted by: Xpl1c1t
So who's with me and doesn't care much for consoles? PC> ALL

:confused: ... PC = always scalable and able to do more things then just play games

Console i.e. PS3 = dedicated plug and play games console
 

pimp55cent

Junior Member
May 17, 2005
6
0
0
okey thats great for your opinion, but next time u think to use ur fingers, do it after a questions's been answered please. When did Sony admit that thier killzone game was pre-rendered..Where?
 

imported_Starglider

Junior Member
May 18, 2005
15
0
0
'SoothingRelease', your claims are not even remotely plausible. Here is a rough analysis of the theoretical capabilities of the two processors.

Both processors achieve the bulk of their floating point performance by vector operations on 128-bit registers. Normally this means processing 4 32-bit floats at once; double the vector GFLOPs numbers for the (rare) case of 16-bit floats, halve them for the (somewhat more common) case of double-precision floats. The Altivec instruction set includes 'fused multiply-add', which is probably implemented by the vector units of all the processing cores in question. This doubles the theoretical peak GFLOPs, for the unrealistic case that every instruction is a multiply-add. In theory each processor will do a minimum of one instruction per cycle if the decoders are kept fed, but in practice the PowerPC architecture has multi-cycle latencies that delay serial execution of instructions that depend on each other. These are 6 cycles for FPU operations and 8 cycles for vector FP operations on the G5, probably similar on the two console CPUs (maybe less for the PS3's SPUs as they have a simpler design). Finally the CPUs in both consoles run at a clock speed of 3.2 GHz.

The Xbox 360 has 'one VMX unit per core', which if it resembles the G5 means one fully functional vector execution unit and one multiply/add unit, plus two floating point units. The G5 has a theoretical issue width of eight, so the Xbox 360 is unlikely to be decode limited. The theoretical streaming compute power (for single-precision values) is 2 x 3.2 x 4 = 25.6 GFLOPS for the vector units and 2 x 3.2 = 6.4 GFLOPS for the floating point units in each core. That gives a theoretical upper bound of 96 GigaFLOPS for the Xbox (172.8 with only fused multiply-adds or 16-bit data), less than 10% of the 'well over 1 Tflop' that 'SoothingRelease' claimed. In practice interleaving vector and scalar FPU code is hard, and IPC will be dragged down by branches and serial dependencies. The XBox 360's single threaded IPC will probably be comparable to an XServe G5 running scientific applications; perhaps a little over 1. Assuming that the SMT is quite a bit more efficient than Hyperthreading in the P4, a sustained IPC of 2 might not be unreasonable, giving a total system performance of about 75 GFlops for six threads of vector-heavy code.

The Playstation 3's cores are issue limited; they have a maximum sustained IPC of 2. For pure vector operations this again gives 25.6 GFLOPS, this time for each whole core. This gives a theoretical maximum system performance of 204.8 Gigaflops (409.6 with fused multiply-adds or 16-bit data). However this cannot be achieved even in principle because other program logic including load-stores must compete for decode slots with vector operations. Combined with the lack of the ability to reorder instructions, I would guess a single-threaded IPC a little lower than the Xbox, I would guess about 0.8. On the plus side this will allow SMT in the PPU to work a little better, achieving a joint IPC of perhaps 1.5. This gives a total system performance of about 90 GFlops for nine threads of vector-heavy code.

The results of this rough analysis; the PS3 has a little over twice the /theoretical/ compute power of the XBox360, but probably only about 0-50% more on realistic game code. However the PS3 also has a much faster memory interface, a very efficient intercore interconnect and probably a faster GPU (the exact details aren't available yet). As such 'twice as powerful as the Xbox 360' is probably fair as a rough description.

SoothingRelease; the 1 TeraFLOP Microsoft claims for the XBox 360 is an 'overall system performance' that most definitely includes the GPU. This is made clear on the official spec page on www.xbox.com. I haven't seen the power of the CPU alone stated anywhere. 200 gigaflops for the Cell sounds entirely reasonable as either (a) a theoretical peak value for normal operations or (b) a real benchmark using 16 bit values or fused multiply-adds. Sony claims 2 TeraFLOPs for total system performance, which implies a GPU twice as powerful as Microsoft's, but the relationship between theoretical peak FLOPs and actual performance is even more murky for GPUs than it is for CPUs. Regardless, 'the PS3 is twice as powerful as the XBox 360' still sounds right as an overall characterisation.

If anyone can see errors in the above analysis or has more specific information, please do correct me.
 

pimp55cent

Junior Member
May 17, 2005
6
0
0
so tell me, where did you get all of this information. To me, it sounds like ur pulling things out of your A@@. Not even the japs would know this much about the cell. From what i know, the ps3 games are faking it. Everythings pre-rendered, at least microsoft has the balls to make the demos ACTUAL gameplay. From what i expect, the ps3 will probably will be better, but not by much, at least not as noticable. Then again, ps3's eclusives suck..all they had was final fantasy, sorry but thats xbox territory now. ...wasn't it stated b4 the xbox cpu was based on the g5. But look at the g5, the performance specs are much lower than intel and amds, yet they rip them to pieces in performance.
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,771
7
91
Well the G5 is actually a pretty complicated architecture. I would be surprised if they could get G5 cores in a small enough die size and keep power consumption and thermal output low enough to clock it at over 3GHz. I'm thinking they must be simplified considerably to be able to do that, which was why I've been asking for details on the actual XBOX CPU core.
 

pimp55cent

Junior Member
May 17, 2005
6
0
0
well, if you remember from the our colony video, they said the xbox will use a water-cooled heat sink. That has to mean the cpu is going to get hot as hell. I would say judging from that, the cpu is in no way less complicated than the actual g5. Having that type of heat doesnt neccessarily mean the cpu is better. The cell is cooled by air fans. It sounds to me that the cpu is just overclocked, but made to stand the extra heat. Then again, it has 3 cores compared to only one of the cell. There has to be something not yet announced by microsoft. I'm still betting they're saving it to blow sony away; hopefully they do.
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
6,771
7
91
Well nobody really knows how similar it is to the G5. You may be right, but I'm betting otherwise. Hopefully more details in terms of architectural papers or die photos/floorplans will be released soon.
 

RaMz121

Junior Member
Feb 5, 2005
19
0
0
simply put sony's PS3 will come out better than xbox
It has in the past and history usually repeats itself :laugh:
 

pimp55cent

Junior Member
May 17, 2005
6
0
0
only complete ignorant dumbasses like you say crap like that. get over urself and say something intelligent..
 

gg616

Junior Member
May 18, 2005
11
0
0
i watched the whole ps3 and x360 video presentations. what's clear is that all those ps3 demos were "fake" but they always said in those presentations that those demos are what the games will hopefully look like come release. That they are aiming to achieve cinematic graphics in gameplay. Give them a chance to achieve that, theyre still a year away from completing that.
Sony went thru it detail by detail outlining what the ps3 will do, so they wont release something that falls short.
Already the xbox is capable of emulating cinematic visuals, so I'm sure the ps3 will by their details/plans be superior (either alot or a little) to the x360 come 2006.
People reporting at the E3 have said that the playable demos of x360 games are actually being run by 2 apple g5 processors, and that that is only going to be 30% of the x360's capacity. They're obviously still in the process of finalizing the official 360 console.
I thiink both will end up being as powerful as each other. Perhaps by the grand scope of ps3's dreams it MAY be actually achievable next year.
 

scsi drv1

Member
Mar 17, 2005
190
0
0
I think it will all come down to the type of cpu used for each machine. if the cpus in the ps3 are asynchronous then how are they going to manage regulating the busses in between each individual one? I believe that its somewhat impractical honestly.
And Microsoft isnt doing much better. From what I understand the 360 has 2 different versions. One to allow backwards gaming and the other doesnt(which cost less). I will say on the Microsoft side that the gpu that they are planning on using sounds unreal 48 PIXEL PIPELINES!!!!!!! My X800XT is only running 16!?
 

imported_Starglider

Junior Member
May 18, 2005
15
0
0
The Cell cores will be synchronous simply because they're all driven by a single external clock generator; it would cost more and perform worse if they were run asynchronously.