Xbitlabs: Comparison of current APUs

[NTMBK]

And if you overclocked those to 8GHz (or more reasonably, 5GHz with the 3700K), guess what? You'd still manage to get higher FPS.

It's a math game. You can't hit the asymptote unless you take performance out to infinity.

Take that same benchmark with the 680, and throw a CPU from next year or a Skylake processor, and you'll get a higher frame rate.

Like I said, there is no such thing as a hard bottleneck -- there are only diminishing returns.

From a purely mathematical sense, sure. But they have already reached a point so close to the limit that the differences are indistinguishable from the noise. (And that's definitely a noisy dataset- does anyone believe a 4.2GHz 4 core Bulldozer really beats a 4C/8T 3.5GHz Sandy Bridge?)

 

[Homeles]

From a purely mathematical sense, sure. But they have already reached a point so close to the limit that the differences are indistinguishable from the noise. (And that's definitely a noisy dataset- does anyone believe a 4.2GHz 4 core Bulldozer really beats a 4C/8T 3.5GHz Sandy Bridge?)

There isn't really a hard wall you can hit.

The whole concept of gaming bottlenecks has devolved into a false dichotomy -- you're either GPU bound or CPU bound. It doesn't work this way, however.

Like I mentioned earlier; it's a game of diminishing returns. As the improvement to GPU horsepower increases, further GPU horsepower makes less of a difference. The wall only gets hit at infinity, which is obviously out of reach.

Since there's no such thing as a hard bottlenck, we run into problems with how we define a bottleneck. No matter what, there will always be at least some contribution made by increasing CPU horsepower.

The entire concept of "bottlenecks" needs to be thrown out. Game performance is far too complex to be able to boil it down into a one or the other deal.

 

[AtenRa]

I do suppose you could cram a 35W T series (no quads though, they're all 45W ) and HD7750 in there, but it will run very close to the limit though.

But in such a case an APU makes sense. Just need to avoid the 100W ones...

Yes, 5700 or even better the 6700 should be fine in that case.

 

[Arkadrel]

@Homeles

You have a bottle that has X amount of water, it has a narrow path at the top,
where the bottle cap normally would be (the bottle cap is not on).

You have a class of watter thats a cylinder, that has the same X amount of water.

You and a friend turn both upside down.

Which of the 2 runs out of water first?

You make it sound like bottleneck = no gains.
Thats not true, bottleneck = dimishing returns.
Quite litterly limiting the flow rate of the beer in the beer bottle you turned upside down
(not stopping it completely).


The exsample someone posted before where all the CPUs where at 80-81 fps, dispite some being 4 cores, others 8 cores, some running slow (ghz) others running very fast (ghz), was a prime exsample of a GPU bottleneck.

even if you overclocked a new intel CPU to 7ghz and ran this benchmark, with the same GPU it has now, the results would probably only be 1-2 fps gained (severe demished returns, from OCing that much).

 

[Homeles]

How do you define how much of a diminishing return constitutes being called a bottleneck?

The amount of water in your equation is also a bottleneck, because more water would mean more pressure, forcing out a higher volume of water more quickly. The amount of water would be a bottleneck as well.

 

[Arkadrel]

how do you define how much of a diminishing return constitutes being called a bottleneck?

I dont know? What is beauty? You ask questions, without clear answears.
Yet any fool will be able to look at that graph and go "ahh this must be gpu bottlenecked".

Just as most people would agree, X supermodel is hot. Dispite asking people to define beauty is hard.

Lets say you overclock your CPU 40% and you get 20% more FPS.

Is it bottlenecked? probably abit, but there are still decent gains.
Ei. 60 fps vs 72 fps.


Lets say you overclock your CPU 100% (from 3ghz -> 6ghz). You gain 1fps.
Ei. 60 fps (3ghz cpu) vs 61 fps (6ghz cpu)

is that bottlenecked ? clearly.

The amount of water in your equation is also a bottleneck, because more water would mean more pressure, forcing out a higher volume of water more quickly. The amount of water would be a bottleneck as well.

But which has the highest resistance?
the bottle with the small narrow opening, or a cylinder without any narrowing at all?

The bottleneck is the resistance part.
Thats why its hard to define.

because more water would mean more pressure, forcing out a higher volume of water more quickly

But wherent the X value's of water in each the same? would it matter at all?
if 1 path gave lots of resistance? while the other didnt at all?

If the force that pulls the water, towards the earth remains the same, but 1 path has higher resistance than the other. I believe the answear is easy.

Thus bottlenecks.

 

[Homeles]

I dont know?

This is the problem. No one knows, therefore the term is meaningless.

But which has the highest resistance?
the bottle with the small narrow opening, or a cylinder without any narrowing at all?

The bottle. But like I said, you could force water out faster with higher water pressure.

The bottleneck is the resistance part.
Thats why its hard to define.

Exactly. And that is why the term is utterly useless and misleading.

 

[Arkadrel]

This is the problem. No one knows, therefore the term is meaningless.

Is the same true for beauty?

The bottle. But like I said, you could force water out faster with higher water pressure.

But is the gravitational force, acting on both the bottle & the glass, with water in them, not the same? There wouldnt be more pressure on 1 for no good reason, than the other.

Exactly. And that is why the term is utterly useless and misleading.

Non-sense.
A bottleneck is a "easy" way to explain where the main "resistance" lays in terms of performance.

 

[insertcarehere]

That makes your system $100 more expensive than say an A10-5700 setup. Naturally a Core i3 + HD7750 will outperform AMD's APUs but if a prospective buyer needs a budget gaming APU and can only afford to spend $130-140, A10s are superior to any existing i3s. Otherwise you have to go with a dual core Pentiums and a low-end discrete GPU. A10-5700 has an average speed in apps similar to i3 3220:
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/prozessoren/2012/alle-desktop-trinity-im-cpu-vergleichstest/6/



It's not $20 more, but $100 more.

i3 3220/3225 is only as fast as an A10-5700 in CPU speed (see link above) and this:

Source

That means you'd need to compare an i3 3220 + HD7750 against something like an A10-5700. $100 more. If someone can afford to spend $100 on top of the A10, an A10 is not the target market for that customer to begin with.

If I am not mistaken, the original post was comparing something like an athlon 750k/740 (which is around $70) + 7750 to the A10, in which case the price parity is much closer, especially taking into account the faster ram that will be needed in the A10 system.

 

[AtenRa]

Europian prices (Germany), the lowest i could find (Including VAT).

A10-5800K = 106.96 euros

Athlon ii 750K = 64.71 euros
HD7750 1GB = 95.54 euros
total = 160.25 euros

You cannot get a quad core + HD7750 at the same price as a single 5800K in Europe.

 

[Hubb1e]

Shake the bottle to start a tornado like effect and the water will come screaming out of that bottle.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Europian prices (Germany), the lowest i could find (Including VAT).

A10-5800K = 106.96 euros

Athlon ii 750K = 64.71 euros
HD7750 1GB = 95.54 euros
total = 160.25 euros

You cannot get a quad core + HD7750 at the same price as a single 5800K in Europe.

You didn't try too hard then:
CPU: Athlon II 750K (64.71€, provided by AtenRa)
Motherboard: Biostar A960G+ Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard (€39.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: GeIL Value PLUS 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€26.18 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Video Card: HIS Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card (€88.14 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €218.03
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:46 CEST+0200)

CPU: AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz Quad-Core Processor (€110.90 @ Caseking)
Motherboard: ASRock FM2A55M-DGS Micro ATX FM2 Motherboard (€46.58 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1866 Memory (€39.95 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €197.43
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:40 CEST+0200)

So it's 10% more for 50% more performance, just like in the United States, adter you factor in the fact that Trinity needs the faster RAM and a more expensive motherboard, rather than the 60% more you make it appear as.

 

[Hubb1e]

You didn't try too hard then:
CPU: Athlon II 750K (64.71€, provided by AtenRa)
Motherboard: Biostar A960G+ Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard (€39.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: GeIL Value PLUS 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€26.18 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Video Card: HIS Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card (€88.14 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €218.03
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:46 CEST+0200)

Now that's a good build. Without the GPU, that motherboard should have the thermal headroom to get a decent overclock on that 750K. Wide US availability of the 750K would change everything about recommending an i3 for budgets builds.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Is there a reason that the 750K's availability is so limited in the States? Or is it just an arbitrary cruelty of the world?

 

[AtenRa]

You didn't try too hard then:
CPU: Athlon II 750K (64.71€, provided by AtenRa)
Motherboard: Biostar A960G+ Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard (€39.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: GeIL Value PLUS 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€26.18 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Video Card: HIS Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card (€88.14 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €218.03
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:46 CEST+0200)

CPU: AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz Quad-Core Processor (€110.90 @ Caseking)
Motherboard: ASRock FM2A55M-DGS Micro ATX FM2 Motherboard (€46.58 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1866 Memory (€39.95 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €197.43
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:40 CEST+0200)

So it's 10% more for 50% more performance, just like in the United States, adter you factor in the fact that Trinity needs the faster RAM and a more expensive motherboard, rather than the 60% more you make it appear as.

Im sorry but Athlon II 750K is an FM2 socket not AM3, you will need to use the same motherboard for both. Also, i have found the A10-5800K at €106,96.

So,

750K + HD7750 + 1600MHz memory = €179,03

A10-5800K + 1866MHz memory = €146,91

You spend more for more performance, tipical for PCs isnt it ???

 

[SPBHM]

That makes your system $100 more expensive than say an A10-5700 setup. Naturally a Core i3 + HD7750 will outperform AMD's APUs but if a prospective buyer needs a budget gaming APU and can only afford to spend $130-140, A10s are superior to any existing i3s. Otherwise you have to go with a dual core Pentiums and a low-end discrete GPU. A10-5700 has an average speed in apps similar to i3 3220:
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/prozessoren/2012/alle-desktop-trinity-im-cpu-vergleichstest/6/

as I said, you can easily save money with a cheaper FM2 CPU, MB and memory, and the overall system price difference is really low...

no one is building an 5700 based PC with $130, you have to consider the entire price, not simply CPU vs CPU+VGA to see how significant the difference is compared to the massive performance improvement for gaming.

 

[Homeles]

Is the same true for beauty?

What? It isn't even remotely similar.

Beauty is subjective. It also cannot be quantified.

But is the gravitational force, acting on both the bottle & the glass, with water in them, not the same? There wouldnt be more pressure on 1 for no good reason, than the other.

I am talking about pressurized liquid.

Non-sense.
A bottleneck is a "easy" way to explain where the main "resistance" lays in terms of performance.

It's not easy to explain. You yourself even stated that you don't know how to define it.

So if a 1% increase in CPU performance leads to a 1% higher frame rate, and a 1% increase in GPU performance leads to a 0.99% higher frame rate, according to you, the GPU would be bottlenecking performance. This is silly. Even if we say the ratio is 0.3:1, it's still very important to know that the GPU is contributing 30% of the performance. 30% is not insignificant, and it's absolutely unhelpful to brush it off as a bottleneck.

Once again, the term bottleneck is completely and utterly useless. It is a moronic, misleading term.

 

[Sleepingforest]

Im sorry but Athlon II 750K is an FM2 socket not AM3, you will need to use the same motherboard for both. Also, i have found the A10-5800K at €106,96.

So,

750K + HD7750 + 1600MHz memory = €179,03

A10-5800K + 1866MHz memory = €146,91

You spend more for more performance, tipical for PCs isnt it ???

Ah, my mistake. It's still a bit less than the 60€ difference you showed it as originally. (That looks to be 20% more for the dGPU setup). Yes, you pay more, but you can make huge leaps at the budget level for relatively little.

 

[Shephard]

man the fan boys on both sides need to just stop.

first off stop linking benchmarks at 720p. How many gamers actually have a 720p monitor? I would say pretty much none. 1080p has been the norm for so long and they are so cheap.

So at 1080p neither Intel HD or AMD APU can do good fps at LOW settings. Who wants to lag and have NO eye candy either? Not many gamers.

You can't play modern games with 1080p resolution with good frame rate. PERIOD.

You can play games like Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3... So can my HD4000.

From a gaming perspective, APU sucks period. Get a REAL AMD CPU or Intel CPU and buy a cheap graphics card. You can always upgrade the card later.

 

[monstercameron]

I dont know about you or where you get your stats, but I play all my games at 720p on my 1080p monitor -gtx 650- and my lil bro plays at 1440*900, so dont go making a blanket statement about peoples monitors or playing a habits. Also as stated before 720p high setting >30fps is totally possible with amd apu...

 

[NTMBK]

You didn't try too hard then:
CPU: Athlon II 750K (64.71€, provided by AtenRa)
Motherboard: Biostar A960G+ Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard (€39.00 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: GeIL Value PLUS 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory (€26.18 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Video Card: HIS Radeon HD 7750 1GB Video Card (€88.14 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €218.03
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:46 CEST+0200)

CPU: AMD A10-5800K 3.8GHz Quad-Core Processor (€110.90 @ Caseking)
Motherboard: ASRock FM2A55M-DGS Micro ATX FM2 Motherboard (€46.58 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Memory: Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1866 Memory (€39.95 @ Amazon Deutschland)
Total: €197.43
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-04 19:40 CEST+0200)

So it's 10% more for 50% more performance, just like in the United States, adter you factor in the fact that Trinity needs the faster RAM and a more expensive motherboard, rather than the 60% more you make it appear as.

The Athlon II 750K is an FM2 part, not AM3+.

 

[Hubb1e]

Who buys a gaming PC for $350 and then buys lots of $60 AAA new release games? Not many people.

Who can find a retail store that stocks computers with an i3 and a 7770? That build doesn't exist from HP or Dell or Gateway or Asus or Acer. Look, the A10 wasn't designed with the PC building enthusiast in mind. That's what the FX 4300 is for, but for an off the shelf PC the A10 makes a heck of a lot of sense and that's why they designed it. It hasn't lit the world on fire because consumers just don't know what they should be buying anyways.

 

[Insomniator]

Don't care what company it is but CPU's paired with barely mediocre gaming GPU's make no sense. HD4000 is crappy and low power enough for me to consider it 'integrated graphics' of old, so fine. Its plenty fast for flash and facebook games.

But I do not see the point in making an APU with some $60 discrete GPU equivalent. It doesn't do anything well enough to be worth it over an HD4000, or just getting an actual decent discrete chip.

Either make it nothing/integrated or make it reasonably useful like a 7790 or something.

 

[monstercameron]

Who buys a gaming PC for $350 and then buys lots of $60 AAA new release games? Not many people.

Who can find a retail store that stocks computers with an i3 and a 7770? That build doesn't exist from HP or Dell or Gateway or Asus or Acer. Look, the A10 wasn't designed with the PC building enthusiast in mind. That's what the FX 4300 is for, but for an off the shelf PC the A10 makes a heck of a lot of sense and that's why they designed it. It hasn't lit the world on fire because consumers just don't know what they should be buying anyways.

exactly! then when they check the forums and see everyone bashing it, that doesnt really help.

 

[Shephard]

I dont know about you or where you get your stats, but I play all my games at 720p on my 1080p monitor -gtx 650- and my lil bro plays at 1440*900, so dont go making a blanket statement about peoples monitors or playing a habits. Also as stated before 720p high setting >30fps is totally possible with amd apu...

guess your a minority. made this topic on a few sites before.

Downscaling from 1080p to 720p looks awful. Black bars too. If you don't like black bars and you stretch it, it looks even worse with low or high quality settings.

Also it's not a blanket statement. 1080p has been around for many years and the monitors are cheap.

1440x900 is old. That is like ancient 17" and 19" monitors. I use to have one like 7 years ago before it got scratched and I chucked it.

You can upgrade a graphics card, you can't upgrade an APU. You already get the top of the line one and you are stuck.

Graphics card you could get something like a 7700 which can actually play games at 1080p on ok settings. They have gone on sale for under $100 before.

APU is a bad investment. Only reason I would ever buy an APU is for a family member if they wanted a HTPC. It would have to be a really cheap combo deal with a motherboard with hdmi.

For gaming, nope.