X-Bit review of 3870 x2

[trajan2050]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...d3870-x2_19.html#sect0

xbit's review is one of the most thorough I've seen and quite even handed.

The new card won six out of the nineteen tests, at least at high resolutions, and in five more was comparable to Nvidia?s top-end single-chip solutions. This indicates its big potential.

On the other hand, it was either equal to or slower than the single-chip ATI Radeon HD 3870 in seven out of the nineteen tests, namely in Call of Duty 4, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, Tomb Raider: Legend, Hellgate: London, Gothic 3 and Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts. So, in some of these games only one of the new card?s GPUs was employed, and in others CrossFire technology didn?t work altogether.

 

[teatime0315]

Nice Find. Thanks

 

[taltamir]

that is the best freaking test I have seen in a while... not only for the X2 but other cards as well...
It tests everything.. so many games, so many resolutions..

And that performance chart is awesome... best I have seen in a while.. it shows which card is faster at which performance.. sometimes its the G92 GTS, sometimes the GTX, sometimes the X2... depending on game and resolution... I am a impressed!

 

[Blacklash]

"The new card won six out of the nineteen tests, at least at high resolutions...

On the other hand, it was either equal to or slower than the single-chip ATI Radeon HD 3870 in seven out of the nineteen tests..."

Just like I've been saying from my experience with the X2; inconsistent, unpredictable and not a new champ.

 

[Bateluer]

Not a bad review at all, very detailed. Did the 8.2 Cats include the driver used for the the X2 in the Xbit review? And is there a list of games with functioning crossfire profiles?

I'll likely be picking up an X2 the first week of March, fortunately, the games I play see a performance boost over my current card.

 

[MegaWorks]

"ATI Catalyst 8-451-2-080123a for ATI Radeon HD 3870 X2"

Nice selection of driver. :roll:

Oh trajan2050 can you stop with the fanboy BS.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: trajan2050
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...d3870-x2_19.html#sect0

xbit's review is one of the most thorough I've seen and quite even handed.

The new card won six out of the nineteen tests, at least at high resolutions, and in five more was comparable to Nvidia?s top-end single-chip solutions. This indicates its big potential.

On the other hand, it was either equal to or slower than the single-chip ATI Radeon HD 3870 in seven out of the nineteen tests, namely in Call of Duty 4, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, Lost Planet: Extreme Condition, Tomb Raider: Legend, Hellgate: London, Gothic 3 and Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts. So, in some of these games only one of the new card?s GPUs was employed, and in others CrossFire technology didn?t work altogether.

This is pretty much what I've been posting about the 3870X2 from day one.

1. When the game doesn't scale with CF, it's the worst performing $400 card you can buy.

2. When the game does scale with CF, it's the best performing card you can buy.

3. Some of the time on games that scale with CF, it's still not better than comparably priced single cards. (like the GTX)

4. The drivers inability to disable CF and leave Cat AI on, and force SFR, limit the flexibility of CF.

So, it's an interesting enthusiast option, with some pretty big drawbacks. (and I would consider this card if I was in the market for a card, because I like "interesting enthusiast options", and change cards often enough the drawbacks would last long if I got tired of them)

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
"ATI Catalyst 8-451-2-080123a for ATI Radeon HD 3870 X2"

Nice selection of driver. :roll:

Oh trajan2050 can you stop with the fanboy BS.

What's wrong with the driver selection, specifically? Do you have a link to driver performance that shows better performance for this card, invalidates these results?

 

[soccerballtux]

Interesting. I've always been partial to Xbit labs; they have some of the most thorough and in depth reviews of any site I've seen. Their no-nonsense website layout I find pleasing as well.

Sad to hear this about Crossfire. AMD/ATi needs more software guys.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Interesting. I've always been partial to Xbit labs; they have some of the most thorough and in depth reviews of any site I've seen. Their no-nonsense website layout I find pleasing as well.

Sad to hear this about Crossfire. AMD/ATi needs more software guys.

The *only* tests where 3870x2 loses in when Crossfire is unoptimized

i want to see this same test repeated NEXT month .. when X2 beats Ultra in almost every test or ties it

it is my observation that if you must run out and buy and play every new release on Day 1 then nvidia is for you. otoh, if you don't mind waiting a month or two [for a sale], then you will get equivalent performance with AMD
--Since i am a "bargin bin" kind of guy, CrossFire make sense especially for me

 

[waffleironhead]

8.2's out now, guess they will need to redo all those tests.

 

[Blacklash]

Never mind

 

[JACKDRUID]

why does 8800Gts 512 lead in so many benchs? i thought gtx is faster?

 

[bluehaze013]

They say Crossfire doesn't work in COD4 and COH Opposing fronts but it works fine for me? I get over 80fps in COD4 with 4xaa and 16xaf? I usually like XBit as well but the review doesn't seem very accurate given this...

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Interesting. I've always been partial to Xbit labs; they have some of the most thorough and in depth reviews of any site I've seen. Their no-nonsense website layout I find pleasing as well.

Sad to hear this about Crossfire. AMD/ATi needs more software guys.

The *only* tests where 3870x2 loses in when Crossfire is unoptimized

i want to see this same test repeated NEXT month .. when X2 beats Ultra in almost every test or ties it

it is my observation that if you must run out and buy and play every new release on Day 1 then nvidia is for you. otoh, if you don't mind waiting a month or two [for a sale], then you will get equivalent performance with AMD
--Since i am a "bargin bin" kind of guy, CrossFire make sense especially for me

not quite... those lack of driver optimization cases it looses to a single 3870... not to an ultra!
You are also under the impression that driver support will soon arrive to every game in existence, plus people buying it want to play it NOW, not in some vague time in the future.

plus how much longer can you wait?
In WIC it gets HALF the FPS of a single 3870... in most cases where it does badly it gets about the same (give or take a few percent)

In oblivion for example it beats a single 3870 by about 10%.. but looses to a GT, GTX, and GTS 512. (in this order) at low res.
And ties with the GT and GTS, and looses to the GTX, in high res (1920x1200)... do you really expect the oblivion score to change? its a pretty old game.

The biggest issue with such a setup... is how it impacts good, but less known games.. I just played avencast, pretty awesome game. How do you think sli and CF optimization has gone for it?
I asked in their forums, and I am waiting for a response:
http://www.avencast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=501

 

[Sind]

Drivers/ensuring there is a crossfire optimizations for games is going to make or break this card. It needs to happen sooner rather than later, if cat 8.3s don't address these issues that were prevelant in this review I think they will have missed the boat imo.

 

[Cookie Monster]

So pretty much CF requires game profiles for each individual game just like SLi. Irony is that CF was advertised to work straight out of the box (no profiles). This is one advantage SLi has against CF, because SLI has been optimized for ALOT of games due to their head start (all the way back with the introudction of NV45). Not to mention super tiling hardly being used at all nowadays shows just how similar CF is to SLi when it comes to functionality.

Im a firm believer in single chip solutions being superior all around. Dual GPU setups like the X2 and upcoming GX2 seems very short term. Theres far too many drawbacks in alot of areas that i believe investing in such technology is worse off then say producing the next gen single chip solution. Although alot has improved from the days of Rage Fury MAXX, theres still alot of problems existing in such a product. 7 out of 19 games it performed pretty badly, but its not going to be fixed just like that in a month.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Interesting. I've always been partial to Xbit labs; they have some of the most thorough and in depth reviews of any site I've seen. Their no-nonsense website layout I find pleasing as well.

Sad to hear this about Crossfire. AMD/ATi needs more software guys.

The *only* tests where 3870x2 loses in when Crossfire is unoptimized

i want to see this same test repeated NEXT month .. when X2 beats Ultra in almost every test or ties it

it is my observation that if you must run out and buy and play every new release on Day 1 then nvidia is for you. otoh, if you don't mind waiting a month or two [for a sale], then you will get equivalent performance with AMD
--Since i am a "bargin bin" kind of guy, CrossFire make sense especially for me

not quite... those lack of driver optimization cases it looses to a single 3870... not to an ultra!
You are also under the impression that driver support will soon arrive to every game in existence, plus people buying it want to play it NOW, not in some vague time in the future.

plus how much longer can you wait?
In WIC it gets HALF the FPS of a single 3870... in most cases where it does badly it gets about the same (give or take a few percent)

In oblivion for example it beats a single 3870 by about 10%.. but looses to a GT, GTX, and GTS 512. (in this order) at low res.
And ties with the GT and GTS, and looses to the GTX, in high res (1920x1200)... do you really expect the oblivion score to change? its a pretty old game.

The biggest issue with such a setup... is how it impacts good, but less known games.. I just played avencast, pretty awesome game. How do you think sli and CF optimization has gone for it?
I asked in their forums, and I am waiting for a response:
http://www.avencast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=501

again ... i am speaking only for *me*

i am DAMN tired of shelling out $50 bucks for a brand new game that takes 3 or more months to fully patch. i completely stopped buying them on Day 1 unless it has stellar previews from those i trust or it is a company with a spectacular track record of flawless releases ... so almost 'none'.

BioShock was a recent exception because i got it on day 1 for $35. That same week, AMD released a 'hotfix' that allowed me to finish it - that same weekend - with very few issues and decent FPS despite maxed out settings.

i haven't got to Aventcast yet

letsee ... lets look at my most recent games ... Hg:L, The Witcher, FEAR/Perseus Mandate, Jericho, Jade Empire, Titan Quest/Immortal Throne, NWN2/MotB, SilverFall, Dungeon Seige II/ Broken World, Condemned, Lost Planet, Call of Juarez and STALKER all run pretty well on *one* 2900xt ...

... did i miss anything ... i am sure i did ... but .. the way i look at it, the game that work *better* in Crossfire are just an "advantage" to playing over a single 2900xt.


and wasn't WiC tested with Cats 8.1? ... i have the 10-day Multiplayer Trial on DVD ... is there a built-in benchmark? i would be glad to tell you if there is already improvement if there is.

 

[taltamir]

I agree actually...
Heck 9/10 games can NOT be completed at v1.0 because of a showstopper bug.

Forget crashing... 100% of people will get a bug that causes the plot to fail to progress... NWN and many other were such.

Jade Empire for the PC came out a year after the xbox version and was perfect the first time. It has no patches and doesn't need any. But every other one you listed I agree with...

Oh, and I found out that all the crashing (for me) in the witcher were solved by running it in window mode (1920x1200 window that covers my whole screen that is )

But as far as I can see that's still poor justification... so not only do most games not work when released... those that DO will not work proprely on your video card... you just went from "I will probably have to wait a few monthes for the patches to fix the game" to "I will have to wait for patches to fix the game AND for AMD to make drivers that work with it..."

Not only are you waiting longer... for that rare game that works on day one there is a good chance you will have to wait a few months for graphics drivers instead of playing it already.

Thats a step backwards IMAO.

 

[apoppin]

Well, i am doing what is still working best for me. So far, i guess i have been lucky ... even to running the Witcher in both 64 and 32 bit Vista without having to run in Windowed mode ... i know Mem posted this workaround a long time back in the PC Gaming Forum.

 

[Mucker]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
why does 8800Gts 512 lead in so many benchs? i thought gtx is faster?

Really glad I dumped my 3870 and picked up an 8800 GTS (G92)

 

[Extelleron]

Interesting review, but hard to believe when it is so out of touch with other reviews.

Anandtech reviews and many others see great scaling in games where this review shows either zero or horrible scaling.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Well, i am doing what is still working best for me. So far, i guess i have been lucky ... even to running the Witcher in both 64 and 32 bit Vista without having to run in Windowed mode ... i know Mem posted this workaround a long time back in the PC Gaming Forum.

That bug seems to exist only with Nvidia hardware. My 2900XT w/ Vista64 has experienced no such problems running in full screen mode.

However, I have experienced issues related to enabling AA. Areas in shadows, or underground areas like crypts will be entirely black, often with clipping issues allowing me to see through multiple walls and so forth. No idea if this is related to to ATI's drivers or the current version of the Witcher, but it occurs in Cat 7.12, 8.1, and 8.2. 8.2 actually seems to be slightly worse. Fortunately, its easily remedied by turning off AA.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Bateluer

Originally posted by: apoppin
Well, i am doing what is still working best for me. So far, i guess i have been lucky ... even to running the Witcher in both 64 and 32 bit Vista without having to run in Windowed mode ... i know Mem posted this workaround a long time back in the PC Gaming Forum.

That bug seems to exist only with Nvidia hardware. My 2900XT w/ Vista64 has experienced no such problems running in full screen mode.

However, I have experienced issues related to enabling AA. Areas in shadows, or underground areas like crypts will be entirely black, often with clipping issues allowing me to see through multiple walls and so forth. No idea if this is related to to ATI's drivers or the current version of the Witcher, but it occurs in Cat 7.12, 8.1, and 8.2. 8.2 actually seems to be slightly worse. Fortunately, its easily remedied by turning off AA.

i didn't notice ... let me check it out ... i thought i had AA enabled


UPDATED: i did. i patched The Witcher to 1.2 on my 32-bit Vista and didn't notice what you describe. Frame rates are solidly above 30FPS with every in-game setting fully maxed including 2xAA/16xAF ... there is no option for 4xAA. It is quite smooth except for occasional stutters i do't remember as often in Vista 64 .... hmmm ... it looks like it still has memory management issues like NWN2.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID
why does 8800Gts 512 lead in so many benchs? i thought gtx is faster?

The GTX is not faster, it has less shader power, lower core clock, and higher memory bandwidth.

This means it wins on memory bandwidth intensive tasks, (very high resolutions with AA/AF) and it looses on shader power intensive cases (very shader intensive DX10 games... or games with AA/AF off)...

If they weren't playing everything at max setting, but instead at max without AA then the GTS would have won over the GTX every time.

It's a give and take, its sometimes faster, sometimes slower, always cheaper and cooler and more energy efficient