X-Bit: No Mass NV30 Production Until 2003

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Lint21

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
508
0
0
Indeed. I don't want to turn this into an ATI vs. Nvidia thread, but Nvidia appears to be on the ropes right now. I don't remember a time when ATI actually had the superior card for as long as they have with the 9700.

Oh, and lest anyone accuse me of being a "fanboy": I'm not, so shut up. First of all, I've been buying what I thought were the better graphics card since the Riva 128 to my current GF3 ti200. Second, the concept of being a fan of a huge corporation is ludicrous. I mean, really; would you support your favorite shoe brand so intensely? I don't recall ever reading 50-post thread on whether Post or Kellogs made the better cereal.
 
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kalster

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2002
7,355
6
81
Oh, and lest anyone accuse me of being a "fanboy": I'm not, so shut up. First of all, I've been buying what I thought were the better graphics card since the Riva 128 to my current GF3 ti200. Second, the concept of being a fan of a huge corporation is ludicrous. I mean, really; would you support your favorite shoe brand so intensely? I don't recall ever reading 50-post thread on whether Post or Kellogs made the better cereal.
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wtf is post lol, it shud be more like cheerios v/s kellogs lol
 
B

bearxor

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2001
6,605
3
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The usual deal has been:

Nvidia releases kick-ass card (GF3)
ATI announces card that edges out new Nvidia card (8500)
ATI releases card (8500)
Nvidia announces new card that spanks ATI (GF4)

now the situation is unique in that ATI has had that card that edges out the Nvidia offering for almost six months now. Hence, we enter in the six month product cycle. This really is the tunring point for ATI. By the time the NV30 launches and gets mainstream attention, ATI will have its next-gen part ready, and now it will be ATI that is a product cycle ahead of Nvidia, instead of the other way around.

Nvidia is going to have ALOT of catching up to do next year.

Rather than go back and rework the NV30 core, they should have released it as a six-pipe, DDR memory chip. It could have been ready by now. Then they could have reworked it for a 8-pipe DDR2 solution.
 
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KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
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Everyone else now has to go to .13 sooner or later
Click to expand...

Yeah that is what the R350 appears to be. With DDR2.

August 2002
nVidia = Geforce 4 ti4200 DirectX 8, .15 Micron Press 128 mbit ram (bandwidth)
ATI = Radeon R300 (9700 Pro) DirectX 9, .15 Micron Press 256 mbit ram (bandwidth)

So around Late February Early March 2003:
nVidia = Geforce 5 DirectX 9, .13 Micron Press, DDR, 128 mbit ram (bandwidth)
ATI = Radeon 9700 PRO SE (I guess), .13 Micron Press, DDR2, 256 mbit ram (bandwith)

From this early model, who has the upper hand?? And who would most likely the OEM's (HP, DELL, Gateway, Sony, Alienware etc) would look into? Man nVidia better hope their mobile and Athlon chipsets can really gather some OTHER source of revenue.

I'm not a fanboy (POST CEREAL ROCKS, GOTTA GET ME SOME GOLDEN CRISPS.. SUGA BEAR!! hehe..aww)
But as a consumer its good, drives down cost, and better value and quality for my money.

(But people do tend to be very fanboyish about cars... no really I hate GM, but I have 2 of em, maybe I should switch to the Ford E class next time)
 
GTaudiophile

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
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I do not think R350 will be .13mu. My guess is it will be .15mu with a few extra transistors to give it the same DX9 capabilities as NV30, slightly higher clock, with DDR2. I don't think we'll see a .13mu card from ATi until R400 (Fall 03). So far, their decision to wait on .13mu has been a good one, letting nVidia work out the kinks at TSMC first.
 
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KGB1

Platinum Member
Dec 29, 2001
2,998
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I do not think R350 will be .13mu. My guess is it will be .15mu with a few extra transistors to give it the same DX9 capabilities as NV30, slightly higher clock, with DDR2. I don't think we'll see a .13mu card from ATi until R400 (Fall 03). So far, their decision to wait on .13mu has been a good one, letting nVidia work out the kinks at TSMC first
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Yeah I kind of jumped the gun on the .13 micron press for the R350 there, but it could still happen, I mean ATI did a great job with the R300, seeing as how it overlcocks quite well, they could tweak the .15 micron even further to save costs and keep VPU's rolling without any Fab "issues". Does ATI makes its VPU at TSMC or UMC? But all I know is ATI will try really hard to get DDR2 on its next line of products, while the NV30 is taped out and no DDR2. Bummer.
 
L

LikeLinus

Lifer
Jul 25, 2001
11,518
670
126
This really doesn't help or hurt either company right now. The major market for both companies is OEM for mid to low end cards, not high end card sales. People like us who buy the biggest and fastest card are a small share. Admitted it could potentially make ATI look better, how many people buy from Dell know that Nvidia has broken their 6 month cycle and is paper launching a chip?

That being said, I don't personally think Nvidia is "on the ropes" or "in trouble". But if they keep falling behind and ATI comes out swinging and keeps it up, it could create protential problems for Nvidia like they cause for ATI before the Radeon 8500 series. ATI just has some great products out right now and Nvidia is seriously scrambling and appears to be having some additional problems (now another delay till Q1). By then ATI will be able to come out with a new chip probably only a month or two after Nvidia and they will both be working on new chips at the same time. ATI has caught up and taken the lead and can continue doing so if they really push the envelope and go for the knockout. It's a wait and see thing.
 
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vetteguy

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2001
3,183
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I guess my statement was more one of fact, that I WON'T buy another ATI card, no matter if there is a 6 month gap between it and the next Nvidia offering. I have NEVER had a good experience with an ATI card, despite 3 good faith attempts on my part. Frankly, I'm pretty sure my G44600 can run with the best of them right now, and will last AT LEAST until an NV30 generation card comes out. If it doesn't, meh.
 
Thor86

Thor86

Diamond Member
May 3, 2001
7,888
7
81
Originally posted by: vetteguy
Doesn't this follow every other Nvidia/ATI upgrade "battle"? Nvidia announces new card, ATI releases next-gen "killer" card. Said card is mediocre at best, Nvidia's card comes out and spanks it...ATI announces next "really this time" killer card, Nvidia announces, ATI releases, lather, rinse, and repeat.

Sorry, I'm not trying to tick anybody off, I'm just thinking back over the past few years. I myself am a thrice-burned ATI buyer, so if I seem bitter that's why.
Click to expand...

Any ATI card before the 9700 sucked for gaming anyway. My last ATI card before jumping on the nVidia wagon was the Mach32 2 meg. :) I stopped with the Geforce 3 thankfully after getting the first, second, and third generation of those cards starting with the TNT2's.
 
GTaudiophile

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: Thor86
Originally posted by: vetteguy
Doesn't this follow every other Nvidia/ATI upgrade "battle"? Nvidia announces new card, ATI releases next-gen "killer" card. Said card is mediocre at best, Nvidia's card comes out and spanks it...ATI announces next "really this time" killer card, Nvidia announces, ATI releases, lather, rinse, and repeat.

Sorry, I'm not trying to tick anybody off, I'm just thinking back over the past few years. I myself am a thrice-burned ATI buyer, so if I seem bitter that's why.
Click to expand...

Any ATI card before the 9700 sucked for gaming anyway.
Click to expand...

What? My Radeon 7500 plays everything at 1024x768 with 2x FSAA and 2x AF that I need it to play: Half-Life-based mods (CS, DoD), QIII-based mods (Urban Terror), JKII, and BF1942.
 
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WyteWatt

Banned
Jun 8, 2001
6,255
0
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No one knows the real specs or facts about the NV30 yet. Well not a lot of people. Maybe some of nvidia. So who knows the NV30 could be slower, faster, or anything thats all i am saying. Look how the ATI 9700 pro suprised us all. I remember seeing that it was suppose to be a month late somewhere and it was not. I was not believeing any of the rumors till the actual company released the specs and the date for it to be for sale. Anything can happen. I mean who knows we may all be surprised by the NV30 being only 10% faster than the ATI 9700 pro but then again we really want all of our games to look better with speed. So i guess the biggest thing to look at will be image quality vs each one. Not saying the NV30 will be 10% faster than the ATI 9700 pro just saying it could be and it may not be.





 
Amused

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,358
19,548
146
Just a heads up:

Post is Kraft.

Cheerios is General Mills.

:p

If you wanna true comparison, it would be General Mills vs Kellogg's. :D
 
S

sharkeeper

Lifer
Jan 13, 2001
10,886
2
0
GM has more rodent hair too!

At least they don't make cereal and dog food in the same plant!

Cheers!
 
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npcom

Member
Nov 4, 2002
61
0
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I have purchased 4 Voodoo class cards and on my 5th Nvidia card (Ti4200), If $300+ was in my budget, I wouldn't waste it on the Ti4600 as its not that much faster than what I already have. The R9700 simply screams over any Nvidia card.

I've setup a client with thr R9000, yeah its a tad slower than the R8500 - but the price is good (smokes any 4-MX card) and has excellent 2D quality that was needed. Thr R9000 playes UT2003 and NFS-HP2 quite well.

The older Radeon (7000 or older, I cant remember) was a piece of junk. A friend had upgraded from that card to a used GF2-MX card.


Nvidia losing 1st spot is good for the gaming industry. Too bad ATI doesn't have a GOOD low-cost GF4-Ti4200 killer. The R9500 needs to sell for about $120~175... not $200.

 
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Woodchuck2000

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2002
1,632
1
0
The thing everyone seems to be losing sight of is that even though nVidia have no chance of reclaiming the performance crown for at least three or four months, this is not going to cause them any problems whatsoever.
ATi currently have no card to face up to the GF4s in the £100-£200 range (in the UK.)
Even when the 9500 Pro appears, I bet it will initially be more expensive than a ti4400. nVidia's midrange and low end cards are still extremely competitive compared to ATi's (Although I think it's worrying that nVidia have no low-end DX8 cards except the GF3...)
Seriously, how many retail PCs come with 9700s compared to those with GF4 (MX or otherwise...)

I accept that having the lead as far as available technology goes is very important, I just think that saying "nVidia is in trouble" is a)Over-reacting and b)Untrue.

Disclaimer of non-fanboyness - the last 4 cards I've used have been 2 ATi, 2 nVidia. I've had great success with all of them and simply buy whatever has the features I need at the price I can afford...
 
A

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.
 
BD231

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
Any ATI card before the 9700 sucked for gaming anyway

Possibly the dumbest statement I've heard in a long while.
 
ultimatebob

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,450
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Neither the specifications or the theoritical benchmarks of the NV30 mean $hit until the chipset is released AND products using it are available on retail shelves.

Remember: There is no guarantee that the NV30 project won't get canceled at the last minute, or that Nvidia will even be in business by the time it is released. Sure, it's a longshot that it will never be released, but remember what happened to other potential "killer" graphics products like:

The 3dfx Voodoo 5 6000
The Rendition 3000 Chipset
Whatever that vaporware chipset that BitBoys Oy was called.

I think that we all know what happened to those.
 
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