X-Bit: No Mass NV30 Production Until 2003

[Daovonnaex]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Neither the specifications or the theoritical benchmarks of the NV30 mean $hit until the chipset is released AND products using it are available on retail shelves.

Remember: There is no guarantee that the NV30 project won't get canceled at the last minute, or that Nvidia will even be in business by the time it is released. Sure, it's a longshot that it will never be released, but remember what happened to other potential "killer" graphics products like:

The 3dfx Voodoo 5 6000
The Rendition 3000 Chipset
Whatever that vaporware chipset that BitBoys Oy was called.

I think that we all know what happened to those.

3dfx, BitBoys, etc. are completely different companies with completely different market shares. NVIDIA going out of business in the near future is almost like saying Intel will go out of business in the near future. It's simply beyond improbable, no matter what competing products are released.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

 

[Daovonnaex]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

Oh? How so? Just because nVidia has a track record doesn't mean that they'll deliver every time.

 

[everman]

It will be at least on par with the 9700, but I"m thinking it won't be extremely significant. Kinda like the 9700 comapred to a ti4600. It's faster and better alright, but there's no real good reason to get the 9700 if you have a ti 4600 already. So in this case it would be that if you do have a 9700 already, an upgrade to nv30 wont be worth it.
speculation of course....

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Neither the specifications or the theoritical benchmarks of the NV30 mean $hit until the chipset is released AND products using it are available on retail shelves.

Remember: There is no guarantee that the NV30 project won't get canceled at the last minute, or that Nvidia will even be in business by the time it is released. Sure, it's a longshot that it will never be released, but remember what happened to other potential "killer" graphics products like:

The 3dfx Voodoo 5 6000
The Rendition 3000 Chipset
Whatever that vaporware chipset that BitBoys Oy was called.

I think that we all know what happened to those.

3dfx, BitBoys, etc. are completely different companies with completely different market shares. NVIDIA going out of business in the near future is almost like saying Intel will go out of business in the near future. It's simply beyond improbable, no matter what competing products are released.

I don't think that Nvidia will be going out of business anytime soon, but they COULD get bought out by another large technology manufacturer that wants/needs their own line of high-end graphics and motherboard chipsets. Sure, the list of computer companies that can afford to buy them out is small (like IBM, HP, Sony, Intel, and Microsoft), BUT it could happen.

It's it probable? Perhaps not. Of course, the buyouts of S3 by VIA and Rendition by Micron came "out of the blue" as well.

 

[SexyK]

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

Oh? How so? Just because nVidia has a track record doesn't mean that they'll deliver every time.

How so? Uhhh, because Evan writes for Anandtech, and I'm assuming that he's insinuating that he knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300. I don't doubt that Anandtech has gotten a look at NV30 at this point, considering the status the site has in the tech world.

Kramer

 

[StattlichPassat]

Heard about this... buddy of mine down the hall was listening to the CEO talk about financials on RealPlayer earlier last week. As soon as he said the NV30 wasn't going to be around until January, he sold his stock. Right in the nick of time before it went down. I think the latter aspect is pretty cool, but the delayed release certainly isn't. Will there be a rev. 2 that will support Hammer in Q2?

 

[Daovonnaex]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

Oh? How so? Just because nVidia has a track record doesn't mean that they'll deliver every time.

How so? Uhhh, because Evan writes for Anandtech, and I'm assuming that he's insinuating that he knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300. I don't doubt that Anandtech has gotten a look at NV30 at this point, considering the status the site has in the tech world.

Kramer

In which case he may be in violation of a NDA. Given that NV30 isn't even close to being paper launched, it's foolish to assume that AT has comprehensive benchmarks of the NV30 at its disposal--especially benchmarks taken in its own hardware lab(s).

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

Oh? How so? Just because nVidia has a track record doesn't mean that they'll deliver every time.

How so? Uhhh, because Evan writes for Anandtech, and I'm assuming that he's insinuating that he knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300. I don't doubt that Anandtech has gotten a look at NV30 at this point, considering the status the site has in the tech world.

Kramer

Did it occur to you that he ALSO might know that the NV30 falls short of expectations? All he hinted at was that they know. He didn't say what.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I have no doubt NV30 will be faster than R300. I mean, it has to be given it's a newer product by 6 months! The question is by how much and will ATi be able to respond with a .15mu R350? Also, did nVidia take NV30 "back to the drawing board" after R300 was released? That we will never know. Yes, TSMC may have its faults, but that doesn't mean nVidia tweaked NV30 while TSMC got its act together.

 

[The Sauce]

As I see it it doesn't really matter if ATI has the fastest card now, as they have priced it out of all reasonable competitiveness. It isn't being integrated into OEM systems and is too pricey for hobbyists to buy. Maybe that's why nvidia has gained market share, since they had to lower their prices once it came out...a smart move for them.

What will most likely happen is that NV30 will come out and beat the 9700 pro performance and price-wise, and only then will ATI drop their price, but by then it will be too late. Either way I will not be upgrading, ATI or nVidia, until the NV30 comes out.

 

[RGN]

It doesn't matter to me, I'm still not buying an ATi card. I've enjoyed every nVidia card I've ever had, and had issues with all of the recent ATi Cards. My preference. <shrug>

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
As I see it it doesn't really matter if ATI has the fastest card now, as they have priced it out of all reasonable competitiveness. It isn't being integrated into OEM systems and is too pricey for hobbyists to buy. Maybe that's why nvidia has gained market share, since they had to lower their prices once it came out...a smart move for them.

What will most likely happen is that NV30 will come out and beat the 9700 pro performance and price-wise, and only then will ATI drop their price, but by then it will be too late. Either way I will not be upgrading, ATI or nVidia, until the NV30 comes out.

Haha. So, nVidia will release NV30 in limited numbers because of low yields and will just happen to price it under $300??? That is some wishful thinking!

A Radeon 9700 can be had for as low as $305! You really think nVidia would really price NV30 below that point if they released it tomorrow? When NV30 begins shipping in numbers sometime in Q1 next year, R300 will sell for $250 or perhaps less. I sure hope NV30 is worth 2x the price of R300!

 

[SteelyKen]

As I see it it doesn't really matter if ATI has the fastest card now, as they have priced it out of all reasonable competitiveness.

$300-$350 is nothing out of the ordinary for a card that is top of the line. Voodoo 5500 was around this price when they were released and for quite some time afterwards. I remember some GeForce cards went for better than $450 in their prime. If you want the best, you have to pay.

Maybe that's why nvidia has gained market share....

I am assuming you are getting this from the numbers posted a few days ago. Please remember that those were 3rd quarter results, when the 9700 was just hitting retail. That doesn't mean that next quarter the tide will turn, but I think you can't draw too much from those numbers.

Either way I will not be upgrading, ATI or nVidia, until the NV30 comes out.

I think that is a smart decision!

 

[tbates757]

Daovonnaex, I think it's pretty obvious the NV30 is going to outperform the ATI 9700 Pro. Duh?

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: NightFlyerGTI
Heard about this... buddy of mine down the hall was listening to the CEO talk about financials on RealPlayer earlier last week. As soon as he said the NV30 wasn't going to be around until January, he sold his stock. Right in the nick of time before it went down. I think the latter aspect is pretty cool, but the delayed release certainly isn't. Will there be a rev. 2 that will support Hammer in Q2?

Ummmm, vid-cards don't need specific support for CPU's.

 

[Daovonnaex]

Originally posted by: tbates757
Daovonnaex, I think it's pretty obvious the NV30 is going to outperform the ATI 9700 Pro. Duh?

Perhaps the current model. But what of the R350, which may be selling when NV30 is? The bottom line is, we won't know until NV30 benchmarks are available, which they currently are not.

 

[Boris691]

BD231,
Saying that the 9700 is ati's only good card shows just how ignorant and dumb some people can be.

i got my ATI 8500 for 50 bucks less then a geforce 3 and it outproforms it hands down. this card can even compeate with my buds geforce 4 ti 4200 and he even has a better cpu. so shut your mouth and get a clue

 

[The Sauce]

A Radeon 9700 can be had for as low as $305!

Oh, i didn't know that. I saw ATI selling it for $350 with an old-card trade-in and figured that would be close to the cheapest it could be had for.

 

[gregor7777]

It isn't being integrated into OEM systems

The above should be disregarded, as it was written by ignoramus.

The world's first VPU, the RADEON 9700 PRO, can be found in the following:

Alienware custom built PCs

Dell Dimension 8200, 8250 and 4550

eMachines T2200SE

Fujitsu FMV-W series

Falcon NorthWest custom built PCs

Fujitsu-Siemens SCALEO line

Gateway 700XL

Hewlett-Packard Compaq Presario 8000 series

NEC: Packard Bell iXtreme for the consumer market

NEC PowerMate XL4 and XL5 for the professional market

Voodoo Extreme custom built PCs


The RADEON 9000 PRO and/or RADEON 9000 can be found in the following:



Apple Power Mac G4

Acer Aspire 8000 (Athlon 2000+, Athlon 2200+)

Dixons Advent 3816 BTO & 3212

Fujitsu Siemens SCALEO

Hewlett-Packard Pavilion series

Maxdata Favorit & Future PC line

Mesh Matrix XP series (2200, 2400 & 2400 GTI)

Mesh Elite series (2.5, 2.6 & 2.8 GHz)

NEC: Packard-Bell range of desktop PCs

Systemax Inspire 7147



You stand corrected sir.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I have no doubt NV30 will be faster than R300. I mean, it has to be given it's a newer product by 6 months! The question is by how much and will ATi be able to respond with a .15mu R350? Also, did nVidia take NV30 "back to the drawing board" after R300 was released? That we will never know. Yes, TSMC may have its faults, but that doesn't mean nVidia tweaked NV30 while TSMC got its act together.

It better be faster. If you look at the projected specs though, it isn't better in EVERY way. ATI has them beat in memory bandwidth(unless nvidia pulls something like DDRII or deferred rendering), and has a more powerful vertex unit. Most games aren't using pixel shaders yet, so in many current games, the advangates of the NV30 may not be as much. Also, by that point, the 9700 will be a good bit cheaper, is it worth say 100% more cost for say 10-15% more performance? They better hope its more than that.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: gregor7777

It isn't being integrated into OEM systems

The above should be disregarded, as it was written by ignoramus.

The world's first VPU, the RADEON 9700 PRO, can be found in the following:

Alienware custom built PCs

Dell Dimension 8200, 8250 and 4550

eMachines T2200SE

Fujitsu FMV-W series

Falcon NorthWest custom built PCs

Fujitsu-Siemens SCALEO line

Gateway 700XL

Hewlett-Packard Compaq Presario 8000 series

NEC: Packard Bell iXtreme for the consumer market

NEC PowerMate XL4 and XL5 for the professional market

Voodoo Extreme custom built PCs


The RADEON 9000 PRO and/or RADEON 9000 can be found in the following:



Apple Power Mac G4

Acer Aspire 8000 (Athlon 2000+, Athlon 2200+)

Dixons Advent 3816 BTO & 3212

Fujitsu Siemens SCALEO

Hewlett-Packard Pavilion series

Maxdata Favorit & Future PC line

Mesh Matrix XP series (2200, 2400 & 2400 GTI)

Mesh Elite series (2.5, 2.6 & 2.8 GHz)

NEC: Packard-Bell range of desktop PCs

Systemax Inspire 7147



You stand corrected sir.

pwned!

 

[SexyK]

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: SexyK

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb

Originally posted by: Daovonnaex

Originally posted by: Acanthus
everyone knows, not even specualtion, the NV30 WILL be faster than the 9700 pro.

Also some of the specs have been released, and its predicted that the NV30 will be between 35%-50% faster than radeon 9700 by "experts". The article i read didnt mention who the experts were or what their qualifications were, so thats questionable at best. But just some of the stuff ive heard. In ATs 9700 architecture review they talked about some of the specs of the NV30. One of them included 256mb DDR, not 128mb mentioned above in someones post.

Also being a .13 part its very likely to have a high core clock than the 9700pro.

I havent heard any specs on R350 or R300SE yet, so i cant really comment on those.

I've also heard that nV wont call it the geforce 5, its a new line of cards and chips.

Actually, no one knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300, except possibly nVidia. To say otherwise is ignorant speculation.

Not really.

Oh? How so? Just because nVidia has a track record doesn't mean that they'll deliver every time.

How so? Uhhh, because Evan writes for Anandtech, and I'm assuming that he's insinuating that he knows that the NV30 will outperform the R300. I don't doubt that Anandtech has gotten a look at NV30 at this point, considering the status the site has in the tech world.

Kramer

In which case he may be in violation of a NDA. Given that NV30 isn't even close to being paper launched, it's foolish to assume that AT has comprehensive benchmarks of the NV30 at its disposal--especially benchmarks taken in its own hardware lab(s).

Uhh, I thought the projected "launch" was around the 17th of november. I wouldn't call that "not even close".

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Woodchuck2000
The thing everyone seems to be losing sight of is that even though nVidia have no chance of reclaiming the performance crown for at least three or four months, this is not going to cause them any problems whatsoever.
ATi currently have no card to face up to the GF4s in the £100-£200 range (in the UK.)
Even when the 9500 Pro appears, I bet it will initially be more expensive than a ti4400. nVidia's midrange and low end cards are still extremely competitive compared to ATi's (Although I think it's worrying that nVidia have no low-end DX8 cards except the GF3...)
Seriously, how many retail PCs come with 9700s compared to those with GF4 (MX or otherwise...)

I accept that having the lead as far as available technology goes is very important, I just think that saying "nVidia is in trouble" is a)Over-reacting and b)Untrue.

Disclaimer of non-fanboyness - the last 4 cards I've used have been 2 ATi, 2 nVidia. I've had great success with all of them and simply buy whatever has the features I need at the price I can afford...

Thanks for the wonderful post. I was just going to say that exact same thing. Gamers are the worst group of consumers in believing that they are the only ones being catered to. As you said, ATI has nothing that compares to the price/performance ratio of a Ti4200. On the lower end, NVIDIA has good mobile graphics (especially with their newly-announced GF4 core in their new mobile graphics solution). Look at it this way: NVIDIA has a larger share of the graphics market than ATI (some reports say as high as 55-65% of the total market belongs to NVIDIA), and their GF4 line makes up less than half of their total shipments. Therefore, their Quadro 4 and mobile cards are helping them win that share. Certainly, a very small percentage of their total shipments are from the GF4 Ti4600 line of cards. Anyone that says that NVIDIA is on the verge of collapse is simply not doing their homework.