WtF? WHAT? WTF? Oklahoma Legislators and the Minimum Wage

[shira]

lol ok let me dumb it down for you. Just because conservatives want government to be local does not mean we have to agree with and support everything local governments do. Just like just because you are a socialist doesn't mean you agree with and support everything Hitler did. Got it?

You're still missing the point that ES made: Do you agree based on your own principles that it's a BAD THING that the state of Oklahoma has made a law preventing local governments from deciding for themselves whether or not they want minimum wage laws?

 

[CPA]

You're completely missing the point too! It's a bullshit irrelevant argument to begin with. For example, I am against gay marriage but ultimately I think it is a state's rights issue. But just because I think it's a state's rights issue doesn't mean I'm not allowed to vote against it if it came up on the ballot. Make sense?

I must be dense, I'm not sure what my comment has anything to do with whether it's something as a policy that I support. I'm merely addressing the level in which it should be addressed based on eskimo's comment. Personally, I think no one other than the employer should have a say in wage. But, because of laws that are on the books, voted by legislators that we elected, we don't have that scenario.

 

[ivwshane]

Sure, take the hamburger stand as an example. You're forgetting all the other links in the value chain to allow that hamburger chain to exist. Not only do you have to account for the higher minimum wage to the 6-person restaurant crew, but potentially the hamburger bun delivery drivers, the meat grinders who make the ground beef, the guy working the Velveeta factory to produce the cheese, the farmhand who milked the cow, the miner who dug the phosphate to fertilize the wheat fields, etc. etc. etc. So take that extra $0.18/hour and multiply it by all the several thousand other transactions throughout the economy needed to make that hamburger a reality, then tell me again the true new price of the burger with the raised minimum wage at every step of production? Ditto for every other good and service you purchase, and tell me how much extra purchasing power you really create?

Sorry but what you posted was horse shit. I had a nice response with links to studies and the bls but my phone sucks.

Anyway, the biggest issue with your statement is that you assume, throughout the supply chain, that most if not all people working are making a minimum wage themselves. They most likely are not. There are roughly 75 million workers and roughly 3.6 million make at or below the minimum wage.

 

[Incorruptible]

Sorry but what you posted was horse shit. I had a nice response with links to studies and the bls but my phone sucks.

Anyway, the biggest issue with your statement is that you assume, throughout the supply chain, that most if not all people working are making a minimum wage themselves. They most likely are not. There are roughly 75 million workers and roughly 3.6 million make at or below the minimum wage.

That pretty much describes most of your posts.

 

[glenn1]

Sorry but what you posted was horse shit. I had a nice response with links to studies and the bls but my phone sucks.

Anyway, the biggest issue with your statement is that you assume, throughout the supply chain, that most if not all people working are making a minimum wage themselves. They most likely are not. There are roughly 75 million workers and roughly 3.6 million make at or below the minimum wage.

Meghan argued for the minimum wage by using an example that only accounted for the restaurant workers' increased wages. I pointed out that some non-zero number of workers in the entire supply chain will be minimum wage and thus their increase wages need to be accounted for also in determining the new cost of the burger. That is all. You can argue for different numbers - 1.8 cents or 180 cents vs. the 18 cents Meghan used, but the principle remains the same.

Feel free to return to your circle jerk orgy where changes in the minimum wage (or even having one altogether) have no adverse effects. Because in partisan land, economic policies never involve tradeoffs and we'll all be rich if everyone just voted for (D) or (R) next go-around.

 

[ivwshane]

Meghan argued for the minimum wage by using an example that only accounted for the restaurant workers' increased wages. I pointed out that some non-zero number of workers in the entire supply chain will be minimum wage and thus their increase wages need to be accounted for also in determining the new cost of the burger. That is all. You can argue for different numbers - 1.8 cents or 180 cents vs. the 18 cents Meghan used, but the principle remains the same.

Feel free to return to your circle jerk orgy where [straw man] changes in the minimum wage (or even having one altogether) have no adverse effects.[/straw man] Because in partisan land, economic policies [strawman] never involve tradeoffs and we'll all be rich if everyone just voted for (D) or (R) next go-around.[/strawman]

Lol. Everything has a trade off, the question is are the trade offs worth it. Almost every study concludes they are.

Now go back to your bubble which is impervious to any new information that goes against your beliefs.

Are you can continue with your tired routine of creating straw man arguements.

 

[Matt1970]

Lol. Everything has a trade off, the question is are the trade offs worth it. Almost every study concludes they are.

Now go back to your bubble which is impervious to any new information that goes against your beliefs.

Are you can continue with your tired routine of creating straw man arguements.

Irony overload.....

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

http://www.heritage.org/research/te...m-wage-its-history-and-effects-on-the-economy

Until the mid-1990s, labor economists had a consensus that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage reduced employment of impacted groups (like teenagers) by about 2 percent.[30] Research by David Card of the University of California-Berkeley challenged this conclusion.[31] His research, focusing on case studies of states that raised the minimum wage and states that did not, concluded the minimum wage had no adverse effect on employment. This spurred an explosion of research on the topic. This research coincided with a significant number of states raising their minimum wages above the federal level in the 1990s and 2000s. These state increases created far more case studies for economists to analyze and permitted panel studies utilizing variation in minimum wage rates across all U.S. states.

Two-thirds of the studies in this “new minimum wage research” utilizing state variation in minimum wages came to the same conclusion that previous economists had: higher minimum wages reduce the employment of less-skilled workers.[32] Among the most methodologically rigorous studies, 85 percent came to this conclusion.

A recent line of papers by Michael Reich, Arindrajit Dube, and Sylvia Allegretto contest these findings.[33] They argue that states that raised their minimum wage above the federal level (typically in the Northeast and West Coast) have slower underlying employment growth than states that did not raise their minimum wage (typically in the South and Mountain West). They contend that studies finding negative employment effects conflate these pre-existing trends with the effects of higher minimum wages. They find that once researchers control for state or regional trends the negative relationship goes away. They then compared counties that border each other across a state line and concluded higher minimum wages have negligible employment effects on teenagers and restaurant employees.

David Neumark of the University of California–Irvine and William Wascher of the Federal Reserve Board strongly dispute this critique.[34] They show that the evidence for pre-existing trends biasing previous studies is weak. They demonstrate that it takes very specific controls to make the relationship between the minimum wage and job losses disappear. Using more general specifications favored by economists produces the standard conclusion that minimum wage increases cost jobs.

 

[fskimospy]

http://www.heritage.org/research/te...m-wage-its-history-and-effects-on-the-economy

Probably better to stick with things like the CBO as opposed to a disreputable organization like Heritage.

Also, what relevance does the historical average of the minimum wage have as to whether or not it would be good to have it higher?

 

[brycejones]

Probably better to stick with things like the CBO as opposed to a disreputable organization like Heritage.

Also, what relevance does the historical average of the minimum wage have as to whether or not it would be good to have it higher?

I think he is trying to show that people on minimum wage have it really good right now and should stop whining.

 

[fskimospy]

I think he is trying to show that people on minimum wage have it really good right now and should stop whining.

I don't think he is so much, but you still have to be careful with quoting things from Heritage as they are a right wing advocacy organization as opposed to an objective research body.

 

[theeedude]

That's why minimum wage should be set higher at the federal level.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Do you understand how badly you missed the point? Whether or not you are in favor of a city's choice to raise or lower their minimum wage, shouldn't conservatives believe that is their choice to make?

Somewhat interesting question.

Usually the state constitution lays out what powers county/municipal govt have. I think it's appropriate that states have that ability: The ability to determine how things work in their state. I find nothing abnormal here, well except for the fact that this sort of thing wasn't addressed when their constitution was drafted.

As to the practical matter of whether county/local govts should be able to themselves set things like minimum wages - There are two ends of the spectrum; (1) county/local govts have complete freedom and (2) they have no freedom. Neither seem a good idea to me. If they have complete freedom then the state govt itself has very little power as it would all be usurped by the county/local govts. OTOH, micro managing everything from the state level seems very inefficient to me. Some balance is necessary.

I think having statewide standards is attractive in terms of managing the state. Most states have a lot of counties, some 100 or more. And in each county there are often multiple towns or cities. You'll have a damn nightmare on your hands if everybody gets to set their own minimum wage. Compliance for business with multiple locations in a state and for the state's Dept of Labor would be exceedingly difficult. Failure to comply with minimum wage laws is no small matter. I think allowing multiple minimum wage rates is setting a state up for a ton headaches and is bad policy.

Fern

 

[Fern]

I don't think he is so much, but you still have to be careful with quoting things from Heritage as they are a right wing advocacy organization as opposed to an objective research body.

And what kind of policy org do you work for?

Fern

 

[BoberFett]

I think having statewide standards is attractive in terms of managing the state. Most states have a lot of counties, some 100 or more. And in each county there are often multiple towns or cities. You'll have a damn nightmare on your hands if everybody gets to set their own minimum wage. Compliance for business with multiple locations in a state and for the state's Dept of Labor would be exceedingly difficult. Failure to comply with minimum wage laws is no small matter. I think allowing multiple minimum wage rates is setting a state up for a ton headaches and is bad policy.

Fern

I imagine San Francisco, CA and Hicktown, CA have different minimum wage requirements.

Municipalities already have their own ability to tax in most places, how is this any different?

 

[ivwshane]

Irony overload.....

By all means show a post by me where new info is given and I ignore it or refuse to change my belief because of this new info.

I'll wait...

 

[fskimospy]

And what kind of policy org do you work for?

Fern

None of your business, haha. Nothing I write on here is on behalf of any organization, however.

 

[fskimospy]

I imagine San Francisco, CA and Hicktown, CA have different minimum wage requirements.

Municipalities already have their own ability to tax in most places, how is this any different?

This is very true. I remember when I would drive to Vegas from San Diego we could see how different the living costs were by various Denny's signs along the way. A grand slam breakfast is much much cheaper in Barstow than in San Diego.

 

[CPA]

That's why minimum wage should be set higher at the federal level.

No it should not.

 

[BoberFett]

No it should not.

Look at who you're replying to, the guy who blames the right for low wages, but also believes we should flood the country with illegal immigrants so he can save a nickel on produce.

Either the dimwit wants to put small towns out of business entirely, or keep people poor in big cities. Maybe he's trying to create a new class of vegetable pickers in New York City?

 

[Fern]

I imagine San Francisco, CA and Hicktown, CA have different minimum wage requirements.

Municipalities already have their own ability to tax in most places, how is this any different?

At some point we have to let the marketplace work. Companies know if they're in a high cost or low cost area. Most I have seen recognize that adjust accordingly. And I do not trust in the omniscience of govt to calculate the exact correct minimum wage for each city.

It's my understanding that municipalities here in NC do not have their own ability to tax (excepting real estate taxes). We can't even set our own sales tax rates. We need permission from the General Assembly.

The ability to tax is a mighty significant power. I've seen too many examples of corrupt and/or outright incompetence at the local level for me to feel comfortable trusting them with the power of taxation.

E.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Bell_scandal

It attracts corruption and elections aren't very effective. Many people are like me; I have a business in a small town but live outside the city limits so I can't even vote in city elections. Taxation without representation.

Fern

 

[TreVader]

Minimum wage income has become morbidly absurd in this country. I know people here in LA earning $10/hr who can barely afford to share a studio. Minimum wage here is $7.80/hr. That's basically 16k/hr BEFORE taxes.


Min wage needs to be set at livable income levels by local governments to address local needs. $15/hr would be livable income in west LA.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I believe that Republican's believe in STATE's rights. Oklahoma would be what exactly?:sneaky:

That should be: "Republicans believe in *some* states' rights".

 

[Victorian Gray]

lol ok let me dumb it down for you. Just because conservatives want government to be local does not mean we have to agree with and support everything local governments do. Just like just because you are a socialist doesn't mean you agree with and support everything Hitler did. Got it?

That part could be because Hitler was never a socialist. Please stop with the revisionist history.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Wages are so low in some US states that European companies are sending manufacturing to the US to exploit the US labor force. In Sweden I can make $16 an hour working at McDonalds. In the US they can get people to build cars for $7 per hour.

No one is building cars for 7 dollars an hour in the US even in non-unionized plant. Additionally the cost of living in many states where manufacturing is on the rise is significantly lower then other states. So your real issue is with the cost of living in Sweden not the US. Lastly no one is being "exploited" when they are paid a fair market wage even if it is less then wages in places where the cost of living has been dramatically made more expensive then it should be by government.