WtF? WHAT? WTF? Oklahoma Legislators and the Minimum Wage

[Jhhnn]

It's Oklahoma, a bastion of Prosperity Theology. God favors the righteous, provides them with riches. God hates the wicked, keeps them in poverty. The legislature serves God's will through divine guidance, punishing the wicked.

It's all so simple that the rational mind fails to comprehend.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/opinions/outlook/worst-ideas/prosperity-gospel.html

 

[AViking]

Thanks for that useless and incorrect data point.

To begin, a Swedish Mcdonald Value meal is around $10 US. We pay around $6. So while our minimum wage is lower, the buying power is relatively the same.

Next, the entry-level jobs at the big 3 are double what you are quoting. The starting range at Ford is at $14 an hour, and after 10 years your wages double.

So please, don't be an ass. Mcpwned already throws around enough bad data.

I did look it up. They make $14-$15 an hour and an extra dollar if they work the night shift. In Europe they make over twice that.

As far as making twice that it 10 years it's probably worth noting that in the US you can be let go. At will. I can't speak on behalf of Ford specifically but in Volkswagon and BMW's case they are not unionized. The Europeans use contractors. That way they can fire and restructure their workforce as needed.

The value of a happy meal means nothing in the context of what we're talking about. Unless you somehow want to equate the salaries of car workers to what they make? In that case none of them can afford to buy the cars they make. Totally irrelevant.

The bottom line is that salaries and benefits are incredibly low in the US. Car workers in Europe get benefits as well as long sabbaticals after they have worked there for a while. To cut costs they are using cheap US labor. They then bring the profits back to Europe.

 

[Incorruptible]

WTF is wrong with the OP. What right do you have to force businesses to hike the minimum wage? It's easy for people to call for the raise when they have never owned a business and don't understand what will happen.

Government should stay out of the minimum wage.

 

[BoberFett]

The closer government is to the people the better. I'd be much happier if things were turned upside down, and cities had more power than the feds.

When it makes sense to harmonize laws, let lower levels of government come together to agree to some standards, but when a locality wants to do their own thing they should be allowed to.

Preventing cities from setting their own minimum wage seems un-American to me, and I don't use that phrase lightly.

 

[CitizenKain]

Good job. He posts nothing but BS and needed to be called out.

Government has no right to dictate wages. It should be between the employer and employee and government should stay out. Many of the people who want the minimum wage raised don't even own a business.

You don't even have a job, so your input on this matter is worthless.

 

[Incorruptible]

Wages are so low in some US states that European companies are sending manufacturing to the US to exploit the US labor force. In Sweden I can make $16 an hour working at McDonalds. In the US they can get people to build cars for $7 per hour.

Why do you keep lying? They get paid more than $7/hour.

 

[Incorruptible]

You don't even have a job, so your input on this matter is worthless.

And you know this how?

 

[BurnItDwn]

WTF is wrong with the OP. What right do you have to force businesses to hike the minimum wage? It's easy for people to call for the raise when they have never owned a business and don't understand what will happen.

Government should stay out of the minimum wage.

I think you mean that it should be between the UNION and the business. After all, if the government is not going to protect workers, the only other options are either slavery or unions.

 

[Incorruptible]

I think you mean that it should be between the UNION and the business. After all, if the government is not going to protect workers, the only other options are either slavery or unions.

No problem with the union negotiating wages. And the slavery comment is just fear mongering.

 

[Matt1970]

I did look it up. They make $14-$15 an hour and an extra dollar if they work the night shift. In Europe they make over twice that.

You got a link to that?

They seem to average around EUR 33,000 /year or roughly EUR 16/hr.

http://www.onrec.com/news/news-archive/average-salaries-at-german-automakers

The average UAW US automaker makes $27/hr.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item...plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

EUR to $US is 1.38 (16 x 1.38 = $22/hr)22 is hardly more than twice as much as 27

 

[AViking]

Don't look at averages. I'm not talking about US automakers. I'm talking about European automakers. They're going to the Southern States and exploiting the workers there.

I think some of you are really looking at this from a very polarized point of view. What I'm saying is two things. US minimum salaries are very low. I then went on to use one example where Europeans are coming over to exploit our workforce. Both suck. These companies are bringing back the profits to Europe. You guys can't possibly be serious when you try to compare salaries. In Europe they get paid twice as much, get free healthcare, pension, vacation, and more. It's not even a contest.

This is not news. I read about this a while ago. It caught my attention since Ikea is doing it as well.

 

[Meghan54]

WTF is wrong with the OP. What right do you have to force businesses to hike the minimum wage? It's easy for people to call for the raise when they have never owned a business and don't understand what will happen.

Government should stay out of the minimum wage.

OK...I'll bite. What horrible things will happen?

From what I've read, increasing the min. wage to $10.10 would have a short term effect of a 0.4% increase in unemployment or thereabouts.

But that is contrasted by the increased purchasing power of millions of workers, workers that could then spend more, thereby increasing demand for businesses, thereby increasing the likelihood of increasing employment by business to meet the increased demand.

Sure, prices would climb incrementally, but the climb should be essentially a one-time increase as the wage increase would be, as it already is, a fixed cost.

Take the proverbial hamburger stand many use as an example. The wage increase of ~$3/hr for a 6 person crew would lead to $18/hr increased cost of operations. Now, if the hamburger stand sold only 10 burgers/hr, it'd be a huge cost of $1.80 per burger to cover that increased cost, surely a huge burden to the business. But a burger joint only selling 10/hr is about to go under anyway......so, selling 100/hr means the increased cost per hr. is 0.18, something much easier to cover.

And that's what would happen across most business and industry. The actual cost would be rather small, very small actually, while the real possibility of increased sales from millions having more real money in their pockets would offset that miniscule fixed cost increase.

That's what happened every single time the min. wage increased and will happen again. Didn't hear anyone screaming doom and gloom from 1978-1981 when the min. wage increased nor during 1990-1991 and 1996-1997 when it was again increased. And where were the incensed conservatives when the latest min. wage increases were signed into law under Bush in 2007?

The country has more than just survived min. wage increases, it usually ends up doing quite a bit better as more people have more pocket money to spend.....and that's just what they do, spend it. And increasing consumption for our economy is exactly what it needs.....increased consumption drives increased supply, which is where employment is derived.

 

[Atreus21]

I though I had heard it all.
Imagine passing a ban against raising a workers wage?
The dictionary defines that practice with the term WTF.
If ever there were a use of the term WTF, this would be it.
You'd had better be sitting down for this one....

http://newsok.com/gov.-fallin-signs-minimum-wage-hike-ban/article/3955375



Everybody, all together now... W T F ???
Or better yet... Republicans! WTF !!!!!

Is there precedent for state legislatures telling city councils what to do?

 

[Jaskalas]

The country has more than just survived min. wage increases, it usually ends up doing quite a bit better as more people have more pocket money to spend.....and that's just what they do, spend it. And increasing consumption for our economy is exactly what it needs.....increased consumption drives increased supply, which is where employment is derived.

Your logic needs to be explored. Imagine if, during the meltdown of 2008 we did not bail out Wall-Street but instead bought out every single home. No more payments going to the fat cats.

That's $1,000-$3,000 a month per household, going into the economy. That's purchasing power. By your logic, that's employment. We missed a golden opportunity when spending large sums of money.

 

[Matt1970]

OK...I'll bite. What horrible things will happen?

From what I've read, increasing the min. wage to $10.10 would have a short term effect of a 0.4% increase in unemployment or thereabouts.

But that is contrasted by the increased purchasing power of millions of workers, workers that could then spend more, thereby increasing demand for businesses, thereby increasing the likelihood of increasing employment by business to meet the increased demand.

Sure, prices would climb incrementally, but the climb should be essentially a one-time increase as the wage increase would be, as it already is, a fixed cost.

That's just it. Every time we hike the minimum wage, it just gets eaten up by inflation. And it's not like that is instantly more money in the economy. A lot of that money more than likely would have been spent elsewhere. Anyone living check to check spend 100% of their money anyways. That added cost of purchasing from these places that had to hike prices due to the added increase in minimum wage will have to make adjustments meaning they spend less elsewhere.

 

[Pulsar]

I did look it up. They make $14-$15 an hour and an extra dollar if they work the night shift. In Europe they make over twice that.

As far as making twice that it 10 years it's probably worth noting that in the US you can be let go. At will. I can't speak on behalf of Ford specifically but in Volkswagon and BMW's case they are not unionized. The Europeans use contractors. That way they can fire and restructure their workforce as needed.

The value of a happy meal means nothing in the context of what we're talking about. Unless you somehow want to equate the salaries of car workers to what they make? In that case none of them can afford to buy the cars they make. Totally irrelevant.

The bottom line is that salaries and benefits are incredibly low in the US. Car workers in Europe get benefits as well as long sabbaticals after they have worked there for a while. To cut costs they are using cheap US labor. They then bring the profits back to Europe.

More half truths and lies. Let's hit them one by one.

Who makes $14-15 dollars an hour? At the big 3 US automakers, the 'tier two' hiring scale starts at approximately $14 CASH. On top of that they get excellent UAW Medical, Optical, and other benefits including a yearly profit sharing (around $10k this year), 1.5x overtime, 2-3x holiday, + a 7% afternoon shift premium or a 10% afternoon shift premium. All that comes to around $28 an hour as a starting wage when you include benefits. Not to mention our significantly lower tax structure, and our significantly lower cost of living that Sweden.

I don't have to 'look it up'. I do pay for the big 3 on a daily basis, for both domestic and overseas manufacturing units.

The value of a happy meal means EVERYTHING. You are comparing wages, but in order to understand what a wage BUYS you need to understand the cost of living in that country. Sweden has a higher cost of living - essentials like food cost more, hence people need to be paid more.

The most amazing part is that despite our lower income rate, our lower cost of living results in a very good standard of living.... yet we can still 'take' jobs from the folks in Europe.

You're right - Volkswagon and BMW aren't unionized in the US, and their workers like it that way! *gasp* God forbid they get their own choice, eh? As it turns out, Volkswagon and BMW pay so well in the states that their members have repeatedly voted against unionization.

Come back when you have an actual point to make.

 

[Oldgamer]

I didn't' actually read the Bill but does this bar employers from raising minimum wage? Or is this just telling cities and counties that they can't make a law increasing minimum wage?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You have to understand the conservative thought process. They actually believe that poor people making more money is bad for the country. In their mind, it would be better for American children to be working fields for $1/hr than some filthy illegal. If it wasn't for the minimum wage, every American could have 5 jobs, just as God intended.

^ Intellectual depravity hits a new low.

 

[glenn1]

OK...I'll bite. What horrible things will happen?

From what I've read, increasing the min. wage to $10.10 would have a short term effect of a 0.4% increase in unemployment or thereabouts.

But that is contrasted by the increased purchasing power of millions of workers, workers that could then spend more, thereby increasing demand for businesses, thereby increasing the likelihood of increasing employment by business to meet the increased demand.

Sure, prices would climb incrementally, but the climb should be essentially a one-time increase as the wage increase would be, as it already is, a fixed cost.

Take the proverbial hamburger stand many use as an example. The wage increase of ~$3/hr for a 6 person crew would lead to $18/hr increased cost of operations. Now, if the hamburger stand sold only 10 burgers/hr, it'd be a huge cost of $1.80 per burger to cover that increased cost, surely a huge burden to the business. But a burger joint only selling 10/hr is about to go under anyway......so, selling 100/hr means the increased cost per hr. is 0.18, something much easier to cover.

And that's what would happen across most business and industry. The actual cost would be rather small, very small actually, while the real possibility of increased sales from millions having more real money in their pockets would offset that miniscule fixed cost increase.

That's what happened every single time the min. wage increased and will happen again. Didn't hear anyone screaming doom and gloom from 1978-1981 when the min. wage increased nor during 1990-1991 and 1996-1997 when it was again increased. And where were the incensed conservatives when the latest min. wage increases were signed into law under Bush in 2007?

The country has more than just survived min. wage increases, it usually ends up doing quite a bit better as more people have more pocket money to spend.....and that's just what they do, spend it. And increasing consumption for our economy is exactly what it needs.....increased consumption drives increased supply, which is where employment is derived.

Sure, take the hamburger stand as an example. You're forgetting all the other links in the value chain to allow that hamburger chain to exist. Not only do you have to account for the higher minimum wage to the 6-person restaurant crew, but potentially the hamburger bun delivery drivers, the meat grinders who make the ground beef, the guy working the Velveeta factory to produce the cheese, the farmhand who milked the cow, the miner who dug the phosphate to fertilize the wheat fields, etc. etc. etc. So take that extra $0.18/hour and multiply it by all the several thousand other transactions throughout the economy needed to make that hamburger a reality, then tell me again the true new price of the burger with the raised minimum wage at every step of production? Ditto for every other good and service you purchase, and tell me how much extra purchasing power you really create?

 

[Matt1970]

Sure, take the hamburger stand as an example. You're forgetting all the other links in the value chain to allow that hamburger chain to exist. Not only do you have to account for the higher minimum wage to the 6-person restaurant crew, but potentially the hamburger bun delivery drivers, the meat grinders who make the ground beef, the guy working the Velveeta factory to produce the cheese, the farmhand who milked the cow, the miner who dug the phosphate to fertilize the wheat fields, etc. etc. etc. So take that extra $0.18/hour and multiply it by all the several thousand other transactions throughout the economy needed to make that hamburger a reality, then tell me again the true new price of the burger with the raised minimum wage at every step of production? Ditto for every other good and service you purchase, and tell me how much extra purchasing power you really create?

Good point. Every part of the supply chain effected by a hike in the minimum wage will also add cost. Let's not forget everyone up the chain that makes more than minimum wage. They have to go up as well. Why bust their ass in the elements or whatever when they can make the same amount punching buttons in a nice air conditioned restaurant or retail store.

 

[fskimospy]

Sure, take the hamburger stand as an example. You're forgetting all the other links in the value chain to allow that hamburger chain to exist. Not only do you have to account for the higher minimum wage to the 6-person restaurant crew, but potentially the hamburger bun delivery drivers, the meat grinders who make the ground beef, the guy working the Velveeta factory to produce the cheese, the farmhand who milked the cow, the miner who dug the phosphate to fertilize the wheat fields, etc. etc. etc. So take that extra $0.18/hour and multiply it by all the several thousand other transactions throughout the economy needed to make that hamburger a reality, then tell me again the true new price of the burger with the raised minimum wage at every step of production? Ditto for every other good and service you purchase, and tell me how much extra purchasing power you really create?

Quite a bit, actually, according to the economics literature. If I remember correctly a 10% hike in the minimum wage is estimated to cause something like a 3% increase in food prices and a less than 0.5% increase in overall prices.

 

[glenn1]

Quite a bit, actually, according to the economics literature. If I remember correctly a 10% hike in the minimum wage is estimated to cause something like a 3% increase in food prices and a less than 0.5% increase in overall prices.

Thanks but you're missing the point. What I was addressing was that the other poster accounted for one cost going up (restaurant wages) but was completely oblivious to the other labor-related costs which would go up also since there's more than just the restaurant workers involved.

Your point is the subject of debate among economists and even experts can't agree on what the exact effects are. I'm agnostic about it as an economic driver or drain, but want modifications to the minimum wage to mitigate what I see as its weak points. Namely, dual minimum wage tracks for teenager dependents vs. adults/breadwinners, and providing step increases in minimum wage according to tenure. The second would target higher wages to those who need them more, and the second would allow lower-skilled workers an easier way to get into the job market and an incentive to keep them in over the longer term.

 

[fskimospy]

Thanks but you're missing the point. What I was addressing was that the other poster accounted for one cost going up (restaurant wages) but was completely oblivious to the other labor-related costs which would go up also since there's more than just the restaurant workers involved.

Actually when I'm referring to inflation this explicitly takes into account all other labor-related costs that would go up. Food effects were fairly pronounced because the food industry relies heavily on minimum wage labor, but the overall effect on prices was pretty small. In my previous post 'overall prices' was referring to inflation in our country as a whole.

Your point is the subject of debate among economists and even experts can't agree on what the exact effects are. I'm agnostic about it as an economic driver or drain, but want modifications to the minimum wage to mitigate what I see as its weak points. Namely, dual minimum wage tracks for teenager dependents vs. adults/breadwinners, and providing step increases in minimum wage according to tenure. The second would target higher wages to those who need them more, and the second would allow lower-skilled workers an easier way to get into the job market and an incentive to keep them in over the longer term.

Your article doesn't talk about the effects of minimum wage on inflation though.

 

[Matt1970]

Actually when I'm referring to inflation this explicitly takes into account all other labor-related costs that would go up. Food effects were fairly pronounced because the food industry relies heavily on minimum wage labor, but the overall effect on prices was pretty small. In my previous post 'overall prices' was referring to inflation in our country as a whole.



Your article doesn't talk about the effects of minimum wage on inflation though.

Did the study you are trying to remember take into account all the other people who's income went up when the minimum wage went up? That seems to be the pattern throughout history otherwise we would almost all be making minimum wage.

 

[fskimospy]

Did the study you are trying to remember take into account all the other people who's income went up when the minimum wage went up? That seems to be the pattern throughout history otherwise we would almost all be making minimum wage.

Of course. Inflation measures total price effects, which counts everything.