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WTF?!?!?! Rambus now targets AMD and Transmeta!!
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I must be missing something fundamental here (it certainly would not be the first time 😉), but if RAMBUS is in the wrong here then how is it that they are able to sue everybody and always come out on top? Have they even lost one single battle in this recent campaign??
Are people simply so biased against them for trying to force us to pay more for less that they are ignoring what might be legitimate claims regarding DDR patent infringements?
Napalm
Are people simply so biased against them for trying to force us to pay more for less that they are ignoring what might be legitimate claims regarding DDR patent infringements?
Napalm
I do not know the intriacies of how the f*ckedcompany called Rambus continue to operate. But I do think that there's a major flaw with the JEDEC organization (too idealistic). They should revise its rules with the assumption that one of its members a pariah.
I mean JEDEC standard are not to be patented by its members, even though its developed by its members (except Rambus who just leeches)? That is the major flaw w/ JEDEC that Rambus took advantage of big time. I think that the JEDEC commitee should set itself as a independant orgainzation and files for patents for technology that's developed in its meetings.
That way, JEDEC can still have all its tech open to its members, but the technology is actually patented (by JEDEC) so any one of its members cannot take advantage of it, and steal the ideas and patent it for itself.
I mean JEDEC standard are not to be patented by its members, even though its developed by its members (except Rambus who just leeches)? That is the major flaw w/ JEDEC that Rambus took advantage of big time. I think that the JEDEC commitee should set itself as a independant orgainzation and files for patents for technology that's developed in its meetings.
That way, JEDEC can still have all its tech open to its members, but the technology is actually patented (by JEDEC) so any one of its members cannot take advantage of it, and steal the ideas and patent it for itself.
HayZeus 2000
Senior member
GammaRayX,
JEDEC already had stringent guidelines in place when RAMBUS was a member and it is clear that RAMBUS was granted patents for technology similar to what was discussed in JEDEC meetings (like DDR)before they left JEDEC. Legal precedents involving these sorts of situations has already been set, and as a result Micron will have a pretty good chance at rendering Rambus' relevant SDRAM patents unenforcable.
The real linchpin of the Rambus patent portfolio, though, is the initial application patent filed on April 18, 1990 (less than a month after the company was formed). While they ultimately abandoned this patent through continuation and divisional application filings many of the patents that they are attempting to leverage today claim benefit of the original application date. If Micron chooses to attack the initial application patent and is successful, then Rambus' IP portfolio will fall like a house of cards and they will likely be sued into oblivion.
If anyone is at fault for the present situation, it's the US patent office.
JEDEC already had stringent guidelines in place when RAMBUS was a member and it is clear that RAMBUS was granted patents for technology similar to what was discussed in JEDEC meetings (like DDR)before they left JEDEC. Legal precedents involving these sorts of situations has already been set, and as a result Micron will have a pretty good chance at rendering Rambus' relevant SDRAM patents unenforcable.
The real linchpin of the Rambus patent portfolio, though, is the initial application patent filed on April 18, 1990 (less than a month after the company was formed). While they ultimately abandoned this patent through continuation and divisional application filings many of the patents that they are attempting to leverage today claim benefit of the original application date. If Micron chooses to attack the initial application patent and is successful, then Rambus' IP portfolio will fall like a house of cards and they will likely be sued into oblivion.
If anyone is at fault for the present situation, it's the US patent office.
KarlHungus
Senior member
HayZeus 2000,
Don't forget to give a fair share of the blame to Intel for bringing Rambus into the PC market...
Don't forget to give a fair share of the blame to Intel for bringing Rambus into the PC market...
<< ... Rambus' IP portfolio will fall like a house of cards and they will likely be sued into oblivion. >>
Crosses fingers, please. Micron, WIN!! Go Micron.
Thanks for clarifing it for me. Its pretty clear that Rambus voliated JEDEC conventions.
I am thinking of shorting Rambus' stock, since it appears that Micron is very likely to win. But I just don't have the guts to short the stocks on what may be the next Micro$haft/Chipzilla only with even less heart (if that's possible). OTOH, I don't have much faith in the justice department either (they letted O.J. free for god sake, though its a different world b/w criminal law and large corporations)
Bignate603
Lifer
I don't know much about this whole law suit, but it sounds to me that Rambus sucks, Intel picked the wrong memory technology, and AMD is going to kill them with DDR.
HayZeus 2000
Senior member
KarlHungus,
True. Rambus may have never had an opportunity to throw their weight around had it not been for Intel's delusions of grandeur.
GammaRayX,
While I'm sure Micron stands a good chance of winning their lawsuit, I'm also sure that Rambus will appeal the verdict and generally use any available means to survive (they filed their countersuits in international courts for a reason-stricter patent laws). The old saw, "by hook or by crook" comes to mind... :frown:
True. Rambus may have never had an opportunity to throw their weight around had it not been for Intel's delusions of grandeur.
GammaRayX,
While I'm sure Micron stands a good chance of winning their lawsuit, I'm also sure that Rambus will appeal the verdict and generally use any available means to survive (they filed their countersuits in international courts for a reason-stricter patent laws). The old saw, "by hook or by crook" comes to mind... :frown:
HayZeus 2000 I am hoping that Rambus runs out of money trying to fight all its cases at once or spread itself too thin that it doesn't have a strong enought force on any case to win any. But given how Rambus operates, it may just be all lawyers running the co. Aureal comes to mind, though Aureal is a respectible company who's a victim of CL.
Bignate603 <<<... Rambus sucks, Intel picked the wrong memory technology>>>
No kidding, seems like the most of the Intel fiascos are either directly or indirectly related to its contract with Rambus. MTH recall, i820 recall, Timna cancellation. The P4 delay is open up to debate, but rumor is that the i850 chipset (P4 chipset) is having trouble with its AGP bus (Can it be also memory related?). The only thing that isn't because of Rambus is the 1.13Ghz P3 recall.
Bignate603 <<<... Rambus sucks, Intel picked the wrong memory technology>>>
No kidding, seems like the most of the Intel fiascos are either directly or indirectly related to its contract with Rambus. MTH recall, i820 recall, Timna cancellation. The P4 delay is open up to debate, but rumor is that the i850 chipset (P4 chipset) is having trouble with its AGP bus (Can it be also memory related?). The only thing that isn't because of Rambus is the 1.13Ghz P3 recall.
so far the companies that has settled with rambus are companies that has more to gain by siding with rambus than not. like hitachi (i think), they settled because they are the exclusive producers of ram for the PS2 _and_ the agreement is until the end of this or next year, forget which, its not forever. Rambus will die, JEDEC will come up with a new memory if necessary.
Mr.IncrediblyBored
Lifer
AMD has been posting huge profits for a past several quarters. They have gotten rather large and I can't imagine Rambus being able to bully them into settling.
Methinks they just bit off more than they can chew.
Methinks they just bit off more than they can chew.
HayZeus 2000
Senior member
<< I am hoping that Rambus runs out of money trying to fight all its cases at once or spread itself too thin that it doesn't have a strong enought force on any case to win any. But given how Rambus operates, it may just be all lawyers running the co. >>
As long as you keep that in mind when you're deciding when/if you're going to short them... 😀
I don't think they've won any of their cases. I believe that they have all been settled outside court. The companies just didn't want to waste the money fighting.
Yeah - I know this is the standard argument. It sounds quite lame and does not hold much water. If a company is sued they are not going to settle for what amounts to millions upon millions just to save some court costs. These are some pretty big companies with alot of money in the bank that are settling in Rambus's favour. Even if cost more to fight than to settle, these companies would not want to set the precedent otherwise they would face all sorts of claims for all sorts of crap. It sounds to me like we are only getting one side of the story because this sucker certainly does not add up...
Napalm
Yeah - I know this is the standard argument. It sounds quite lame and does not hold much water. If a company is sued they are not going to settle for what amounts to millions upon millions just to save some court costs. These are some pretty big companies with alot of money in the bank that are settling in Rambus's favour. Even if cost more to fight than to settle, these companies would not want to set the precedent otherwise they would face all sorts of claims for all sorts of crap. It sounds to me like we are only getting one side of the story because this sucker certainly does not add up...
Napalm
Napalm,
There's a couple of reasons that these companies would settle with Rambus. They still want to maintain a relationship with Rambus so that they can produce RDRAM - no memory company wants to say "we don't produce that" if "that" is required in many Intel products. Screwing with Rambus in the court of law could permanently terminate this relationship, or persuade Rambus to severely increase licensing costs, making that company's RDRAM more expensive than it's competitors.
Rambus' strategy is quite remarkable:
1. Get Intel on your side. All computer hardware companies want to be Intel compatible. What Rambus has done is forced companies to produce RDRAM if they want to be Intel-compatible.
2. Since RDRAM is a must-have for these companies, Rambus can sue them frivolously. If the companies fight back, Rambus increases the licensing costs. Intel is still producing RDRAM systems so these companies can't just say "let's go DDR exclusively" - if they did, then they would have no product to fill the Intel market...pretty bad in the eyes of investors. If the companies don't fight the suits, and instead settle, then Rambus forces the to pay a moderate licensing fee.
The companies should really be pissed at Intel for signing that exclusivity contract with Rambus...it was a horrible decision that could have dramatic repercussions throughout the industry (i.e. rising cost of computer systems, instead of the traditional falling costs).
-GL
There's a couple of reasons that these companies would settle with Rambus. They still want to maintain a relationship with Rambus so that they can produce RDRAM - no memory company wants to say "we don't produce that" if "that" is required in many Intel products. Screwing with Rambus in the court of law could permanently terminate this relationship, or persuade Rambus to severely increase licensing costs, making that company's RDRAM more expensive than it's competitors.
Rambus' strategy is quite remarkable:
1. Get Intel on your side. All computer hardware companies want to be Intel compatible. What Rambus has done is forced companies to produce RDRAM if they want to be Intel-compatible.
2. Since RDRAM is a must-have for these companies, Rambus can sue them frivolously. If the companies fight back, Rambus increases the licensing costs. Intel is still producing RDRAM systems so these companies can't just say "let's go DDR exclusively" - if they did, then they would have no product to fill the Intel market...pretty bad in the eyes of investors. If the companies don't fight the suits, and instead settle, then Rambus forces the to pay a moderate licensing fee.
The companies should really be pissed at Intel for signing that exclusivity contract with Rambus...it was a horrible decision that could have dramatic repercussions throughout the industry (i.e. rising cost of computer systems, instead of the traditional falling costs).
-GL
2 points on the settlements.
1) We do not know the terms of the settlement. It is quite probable that Rambus gave them very good terms on the licensing of RDRAM just to get some member of the Dramuri to fold. Spend millions on a lawsuit or get very good terms on the making of RDRAM, they settled.
2) The companies that settled were Asian that are not used to fighting battles like this in court and are understandably wary of the American court system.
GL also made good points.
Litigation is no substitute for innovation.
1) We do not know the terms of the settlement. It is quite probable that Rambus gave them very good terms on the licensing of RDRAM just to get some member of the Dramuri to fold. Spend millions on a lawsuit or get very good terms on the making of RDRAM, they settled.
2) The companies that settled were Asian that are not used to fighting battles like this in court and are understandably wary of the American court system.
GL also made good points.
Litigation is no substitute for innovation.
Midnight Rambler
Diamond Member
<< AMD has been posting huge profits for a past several quarters. They have gotten rather large and I can't imagine Rambus being able to bully them into settling. Methinks they just bit off more than they can chew. >>
That would depend on how you define several. If it's 2 or 3, then yes, otherwise you are talking very short term for a company that had been bleeding money for years, had Moody's absolute worst credit rating, and was basically near bankruptcy. I should know, it's been "dead money" in my portfolio until the last year. And take a look at these companies market cap before deciding who is bigger, they're actually near equals with RMBS at $7.6 Billion and AMD at $7.4 B.
<< JEDEC already had stringent guidelines in place when RAMBUS was a member and it is clear that RAMBUS was granted patents for technology similar to what was discussed in JEDEC meetings (like DDR)before they left JEDEC. Legal precedents involving these sorts of situations has already been set, and as a result Micron will have a pretty good chance at rendering Rambus' relevant SDRAM patents unenforcable.
The real linchpin of the Rambus patent portfolio, though, is the initial application patent filed on April 18, 1990 (less than a month after the company was formed). >>
Finally, somebody who is posting the facts of this case, rather than blowing a bunch of smoke. 😉 What I would like to know is, when exactly did Rambus join JEDEC, because if was after their patent application date, then Rambus could win. Otherwise, Rambus would have had to have joined JEDEC within its first month of being a company, how likely is that? As for there being legal precedents (ie. case law) in place to protect conversation, does anybody know where we can get some specifics on these precedents? I'd love to sue Hyundai and one Mr. Q. Ngo ... 😀
There needs to be a law against the foundation of a company such as RAMBUS. Its very existance should be a violation of international law. A company that has no product, no IP that it originates (it purchases them from other companies or simply claims rights to existing ideas in a lawful way before anyone else thinks to patent). A technology company that has a sole income based on LAW needs to be dismantled. The existance of RAMBUS only raises product prices and limits innovation. I sincerely hope that Micron wins their case and removes the RAMBUS malignancy once and for all.
HayZeus 2000
Senior member
Midnight Rambler,
The cases I'm referring to are Wang v Mistubishi and Dell v Federal Trade Commission. While I don't have my original links handy, here is the appelate court's opinion on Wang V Mitsubishi: Wang V. Mitsubishi and here is a nice thumbnail of Dell V FTC: FTC v. Dell thumbnail The precedents set by these cases will likely be enough to render the Rambus patents unenforcable-I don't see Rambus being able to convincingly argue that their patents on SDRAM designs were not relevant to the standards that JEDEC ratified.
The actual date that Rambus joined JEDEC will likely be contended, but it is certain they were a member no later than 1992, and possibly 1991. While that is after they filed their initial application patent, keep in mind that it was not disclosed to JEDEC and it was just that: an initial application which did not contain any designs itself.
The cases I'm referring to are Wang v Mistubishi and Dell v Federal Trade Commission. While I don't have my original links handy, here is the appelate court's opinion on Wang V Mitsubishi: Wang V. Mitsubishi and here is a nice thumbnail of Dell V FTC: FTC v. Dell thumbnail The precedents set by these cases will likely be enough to render the Rambus patents unenforcable-I don't see Rambus being able to convincingly argue that their patents on SDRAM designs were not relevant to the standards that JEDEC ratified.
The actual date that Rambus joined JEDEC will likely be contended, but it is certain they were a member no later than 1992, and possibly 1991. While that is after they filed their initial application patent, keep in mind that it was not disclosed to JEDEC and it was just that: an initial application which did not contain any designs itself.
I don't really know the facts about RAMBUS patents and I wonder where you are getting the information.
But I know I was really pissed that Micheal Crichton stole my idea for Jurassic Park from me by looking over my shoulder as I drew a T. Rex on my paper serviette on a rainy day in Hastings 1983.
I'd just like to say I think GL is a smart guy. Any lawyers reading? Please explain it all.
But I know I was really pissed that Micheal Crichton stole my idea for Jurassic Park from me by looking over my shoulder as I drew a T. Rex on my paper serviette on a rainy day in Hastings 1983.
I'd just like to say I think GL is a smart guy. Any lawyers reading? Please explain it all.
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