WTF Ford?

[0roo0roo]

you should see what uk pays for gas before you get envious of their situation... hows 8 bucks a gallon sound? you buy such rinky dink engined cars because you can't afford anything else.

 

[0roo0roo]

They dont sell this car because nobody wants it. How many people drive a ford fiesta?

yup people talk big, but they speak with their wallets. remember the geo metro? 58mpg in 1989

people bought suvs.

you can always make a tiny shit bucket that will get high mpg, the idea that the europeans have magical illegal engine technology is just bizarre.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

<--- Drives a 2010 Jetta TDI

VW has problems with US diesel quality as it is, our standards are significantly lower than Euro ones as it is and the gas lobby isnt going to change it anytime soon.

Most of the BS people are saying in here is straight out wrong, my diesel Jetta is magnitudes better to drive than the equivalent 2.5 gas motor, its geared such that driving around town has plenty of torque and it drops a gear so easily on the freeway for passing that its actually better than a lot of 4 cyl midsize sedans. That being said the emissions system on the TDIs are extremely complex and add a lot more to the price of the car, I believe if it is misfueled the emissions system costs around 5-6k to replace with labor. There is a DPF system and 2 cats that have to be taken care of.

Ford probably doesn't want to deal with the emissions BS and thats why they aren't bringing it, though VW sells every single diesel car they import into the US pretty easily, they only stay on a lot an average of a week or two before being sold in most cases.

 

[bfdd]

It seems people have no idea how expensive it is to make a diesel vehicle here in America. All the stuff to make it emissions legal is very expensive. It's why you only see diesel on higher end brands like VW or Audi and you're going to pay thousands more for that diesel engine. It's going to be minimum $3,000 on top of the normal price. You'd have to be retarded to pay that on a Fiesta. The base Fiesta already gets good mileage.

I would totally buy the car are you kidding? Almost twice the gas mileage for 3k on top? Yeah I'm down. I'll make that 3k up in gas over the life of the loan.

 

[ShawnD1]

yup people talk big, but they speak with their wallets. remember the geo metro? 58mpg in 1989

High school friend had a Chevy Sprint (basically the same size). Sure it was a death trap but we loved how cheap it was to operate. Pick everyone up and let's go eat at Red Lobster or some other place that is outside of walking distance!


best selling cars in the US
The top 3 cars are mid size sedans. Then 4 and 5 are compact sedans like the Honda Civic. Little baby cars like Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris don't even make the list. Ford Fiesta is #20.

 

[Fritzo]

something is wrong that you think VW is a "higher end brand".

VW is a "higher end brand" that also sells a few affordable models.. They're comparable to Audi in their offerings (yes, I know it's the same company).

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, our good British friend Jeremy Clarkson sums up diesels very well:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/jeremy-clarkson/clarkson-diesel-11-1993

Coronation Street is the most watched programme on British television but this does not make it the best. Spain is the most popular foreign holiday destination for Brits yet I can assure you that Spain is very probably the nastiest country on earth; a place where they think it's a hoot to stick spears in cows, where they can't cook and they can't make wine. Also, lisping can be an endearing trait but not when everyone is doing it.

No, something may well be popular but that does not necessarily make it good. I mean, there have been periods in history when genocide was all the rage. And that brings me neatly on to the great diesel debate. Those who purvey derv-drinking cars point out, noisily, that one car in five sold in Britain now runs around on a diet of diesel. And then, with a contented sigh, they sit back, belly puffed out and hands steepled behind their heads. For years, they have been telling us that diesel is clean and cheap and that diesel cars are efficient. Right now, they are feeling vindicated and worthy because at last, people are queuing up to buy cars that run on ‘the fuel of the future'.

"The diesel lobby argues that petrol contains fumes that will kill us all. This is nonsense"
Well, it isn't. Diesel has only two places in current society: under the bonnet of something with six axles and a tattooed arm sticking out of the window, or in a tractor. Providing, of course, the taxpayer does not end up paying the farmer to use it, which we do. But then again, we also pay for his car, his wife's new coat, his children's education and all his restaurant bills so I guess a drop of derv every now and again is small bacon.

Diesel-powered cars are an absolute and complete waste of everybody's afternoon. First, despite what everyone says, they are a lot slower than their petrol-driven counterparts. They often cost more to buy and, if you actually do your sums, you will find that in many cases you need to do upwards of 50,000 miles before the savings start. Get this: when you've done 100,000 miles, you will be better off to the tune of £100. I lose that kind of money down the back of my sofa every time the film gets exciting.

And how much fun will you have had with your diesel as those long, tedious, and noisy miles roll by? None. On hills, you will have been able to watch the trees grow. And then die, as the smoke from your exhaust suffocates them.

At night, your neighbours, fed up with being woken up every morning by what sounds like a washing machine full of house bricks, will sneak out and urinate through your letter box. And rightly so.

At every traffic light you will have had all your fillings shaken loose by the vibrations and you will not have been able to call your dentist either because the constant wobbling will have broken your carphone.

The diesel lobby argues that petrol contains fumes that will kill us all. This is nonsense. Open the bonnet of, say, a Saab Aero and you will find geraniums and honeysuckle on the cylinder heads. Open the bonnet of a diesel and you will find a lot of soot and some dead rats.

Diesel engines chuck out black, oily smoke. I'm sorry, but there is no way that I'll be convinced this is good for us. I am not allowed to smoke in aeroplanes, tube trains, restaurants, cinemas and even this office, so why should your car be allowed to smoke on the road? It shouldn't. Get rid of it, get a life and buy a Dodge Viper instead.

 

[sdifox]

They dont sell this car because nobody wants it. How many people drive a ford fiesta?

Fiesta has been doing really well.

http://www.windsorstar.com/cars/Ford+sales+leader+North+America/4549043/story.html


"
In Canada, Ford retained its crown as No. 1 automaker with sales rising 16 per cent in March compared to the same period last year, the automaker said Friday.
Fuelled by demand for the Ford Fiesta subcompact, car sales rose 31 per cent, while light truck sales increased 12 per cent, Ford said."

 

[Fritzo]

Fiesta has been doing really well.

http://www.windsorstar.com/cars/Ford+sales+leader+North+America/4549043/story.html


"
In Canada, Ford retained its crown as No. 1 automaker with sales rising 16 per cent in March compared to the same period last year, the automaker said Friday.
Fuelled by demand for the Ford Fiesta subcompact, car sales rose 31 per cent, while light truck sales increased 12 per cent, Ford said."

Yeah, the new one is the American version of the Scion. It appeals to the first time buyer/young driver and is customizable and affordable. They do look fairly sharp for a tiny car:

 

[zokudu]

I know around here diesel is more expensive than gasoline so I doubt people would purchse it just because of the increase in perceived fuel cost even if it gets way more MPG resulting in cheaper operation.

 

[GoSharks]

VW is a "higher end brand" that also sells a few affordable models.. They're comparable to Audi in their offerings (yes, I know it's the same company).

Anyway, back to the issue at hand, our good British friend Jeremy Clarkson sums up diesels very well:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/jeremy-clarkson/clarkson-diesel-11-1993

Is that an article from 1993?

Modern diesels are nothing like ones in the W126s.

 

[Bignate603]

I would totally buy the car are you kidding? Almost twice the gas mileage for 3k on top? Yeah I'm down. I'll make that 3k up in gas over the life of the loan.

I think you missed the posts where people pointed out that the Daily Tech's math was wrong. That 80 mpg claim uses two things which make it so it doesn't compare with US ratings:
1. They're using imperial gallons which are larger than US gallons
2. They're using the EU cycle which routinely gives much better efficiencies than the EPA cycle.

If you convert that 80 mpg claim to US gallons you end up with 67 mpg on the EU cycle. Converting it to the US cycle isn't clear cut but from some of the other examples can be used to estimate it. From what I could find it would make this car get 53 mpg on the US cycle using US gallons.

 

[Fritzo]

Is that an article from 1993?

Modern diesels are nothing like ones in the W126s.

The article is from 2009. Not sure why it has 1993 on the link.

 

[bfdd]

I think you missed the posts where people pointed out that the Daily Tech's math was wrong. That 80 mpg claim uses two things which make it so it doesn't compare with US ratings:
1. They're using imperial gallons which are larger than US gallons
2. They're using the EU cycle which routinely gives much better efficiencies than the EPA cycle.

If you convert that 80 mpg claim to US gallons you end up with 67 mpg on the EU cycle. Converting it to the US cycle isn't clear cut but from some of the other examples can be used to estimate it. From what I could find it would make this car get 53 mpg on the US cycle using US gallons.

You guys keep telling me the EU cycle gives much better efficiency ratings than the EPA cycle, but I haven't really seen that when looking it up. Looks pretty damn close to the same thing.

 

[zerocool84]

I would totally buy the car are you kidding? Almost twice the gas mileage for 3k on top? Yeah I'm down. I'll make that 3k up in gas over the life of the loan.

Ok so one person out of the millions of other potential buyers. Fact of the matter is that most people won't.

 

[Joseph F]

Diesels suck. They sound terrible, they have no torque, they tend to be hard to start in cold weather, the fuel stinks to high heaven...do not want.

D: *head assplodes.

BTW a person I know has a TDI Jetta and it started up instantly in ~30F weather.

 

[Zebo]

I have to fucking admit...I would fucking buy that.

Agreed. Times change. It's 2011 we have a black president and Ford makes good cars now!

 

[0roo0roo]

You guys keep telling me the EU cycle gives much better efficiency ratings than the EPA cycle, but I haven't really seen that when looking it up. Looks pretty damn close to the same thing.

whats more likely, magical efficiency or conversion/differing standards that make for bigger looking numbers?

 

[MarkXIX]

Fucking word man. Fucking word.

Indeed. I'm still waiting for my Jeep Wrangler diesel though. Fuckers.

 

[SlickSnake]

They have EPA fleet standards to meet concerning emissions and fuel economy standards for gas and diesel powered vehicles. They also have limits set on them for how many disels they can make versus gas powered vehicles. And the demand for diesel trucks is still extremely high, so there is no way in the USA they would start making a cheaper diesel car and stop putting some diesels in higher profit trucks as a trade off.

Ford is also retooling the F150 to use a more powerful V6 than the standard Triton V8 they use now to meet emissions and fuel economy standards in the years to come. The old Triton V6s they started using in the F150s in 1997 when they changed the truck line got pretty impressive gas mileage on the highway and were very reliable, but were a bit lethargic in the power and torque department when hauling a load or pulling a trailer. I'm sure if they can get that math worked out in the transmission and transfer case, they may have a new winner on their hands.

 

[pcgeek11]

Iirc, one of the previous barriers was that most Euro diesel engines passed Euro standards but not ours -- there was one particulate that we prohibited at a stricter level. This may have changed just recently, but it was a previous factor.

Edit: It's nitrous oxide which we are stricter about. This is the best I could come up with doing a quick and dirty search:

There is a fix for this already being made in the USA and sold to Ford and GM for their diesel engines in the trucks. by Robert Bosch LLC.

It is call D'NOX which is an injection system built in to remove these emissions.

http://www.cdti.com/content/products/aris/ureainjection.htm

 

[zinfamous]

I know the biodiesel industry is tanking due to loss of annual subsidies, but wouldn't this help re-invigorate that sector?

I assume biodiesel is quite clean, no?

you can pretty much make it in your basement...

 

[bfdd]

I know the biodiesel industry is tanking due to loss of annual subsidies, but wouldn't this help re-invigorate that sector?

I assume biodiesel is quite clean, no?

you can pretty much make it in your basement...

it could, i would be interested in it. they are installing a biodiesel pump at the chevron down the street from me.

 

[rh71]

so basically bullshit regulations which were probably put in place to protect American car companies like Ford?

a few companies like BMW & Merc have put out new diesels recently and made them 50-state compliant. Together with eco-credits, they are selling well. Ford probably just thinks it's not worth the effort ($ / time) to go through that. Profit for them may be low here.

 

[zerocool84]

a few companies like BMW & Merc have put out new diesels recently and made them 50-state compliant. Together with eco-credits, they are selling well. Ford probably just thinks it's not worth the effort ($ / time) to go through that. Profit for them may be low here.

Of course because people who buy BMW and MB are willing to pay more and someone who's buying a Ford is less likely to pay that extra money for it.

 

[rh71]

so basically bullshit regulations which were probably put in place to protect American car companies like Ford?

a few companies like BMW & Merc have put out new diesels recently and made them 50-state compliant. Ford probably just thinks it's not worth the effort ($ / time) because of interest. Profit may be too low for them in the end with such a vehicle.

There is a fix for this already being made in the USA and sold to Ford and GM for their diesel engines in the trucks. by Robert Bosch LLC.

It is call D'NOX which is an injection system built in to remove these emissions.

http://www.cdti.com/content/products/aris/ureainjection.htm

Yes cow piss... also being used in current BMW diesels here.